Hey, It's Like All Dark and Sh@t Now

Book 3 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

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TheFallen
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Post by TheFallen »

I'm also of the opinion that the sun and stars haven't been consumed, but are instead being blotted out by some manifestation of power. HLT makes a good point above that, if the Sun and the stars had actually been eaten, that would be escalating power levels by a geometric degree to almost ludicrous levels.

However, if my belief is wrong, then...
lurch wrote:This " play" by the author, of Time, leads me to wonder about exactly when is TC seeing the Worm munching the stars. He went thru a caesure to find Joan... exactly " when" he and company got deposited may be at play...
That's an excellent point. TC did indeed jump into a caesure to get to Joan, so we have no idea when he kills her. It can't be the subjective past (causality and sequence) or the Arch of Time would break, but it could either be the subjective present or the subjective future. If the latter, then even if the Worm has consumed the Sun - which I still hugely doubt - there's a narrative get-out.
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Post by Sunbaneglasses »

Of course we are not dealing with astronomy in a real world, sense. Is the entirety of The "Land-iverse" the heavens included totally contained within the AOT? Does The Worm have free reign to devour all sources of power within the AOT?
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Post by ninjaboy »

TheFallen wrote:I'm also of the opinion that the sun and stars haven't been consumed, but are instead being blotted out by some manifestation of power. HLT makes a good point above that, if the Sun and the stars had actually been eaten, that would be escalating power levels by a geometric degree to almost ludicrous levels.

However, if my belief is wrong, then...
lurch wrote:This " play" by the author, of Time, leads me to wonder about exactly when is TC seeing the Worm munching the stars. He went thru a caesure to find Joan... exactly " when" he and company got deposited may be at play...
That's an excellent point. TC did indeed jump into a caesure to get to Joan, so we have no idea when he kills her. It can't be the subjective past (causality and sequence) or the Arch of Time would break, but it could either be the subjective present or the subjective future. If the latter, then even if the Worm has consumed the Sun - which I still hugely doubt - there's a narrative get-out.
I do understand your point, that we don't know *when* he kills her..
But we know that the Sun doesn't come up / is blocked out / has been eaten the morning after the tsunami comes through..
And to be honest, that wave couldn't have just been waiting out at sea for x amount of time.. Unless of course the Raver was holding it at bay, and when Joan was slain it was released..
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

It could be that the Worm has eaten the sun or part of it, and some of the stars, without assuming it has ludicrous amounts of power. That is, if we don't assume that the Land's universe is like that of the "real" world. We don't know how big that universe is. Perhaps its stars are relatively tiny and hover around just above the atmosphere.
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

in the second Chronicles there's a passage where Linden can discern how the Sunbane only hugs the surface of the Land, that it wasn't an alteration of the Sun itself. (I think it was when they made it to the Lower Level.
It was written in such a way that made it seem inconceivable that anything could alter the sun itself.

Which to me fit into the power levels I've established in my head about the Chronicles.
Foul is imprisoned on Earth by the Arch.
If the Arch extends through the near infinite expanse of the Universe so it encompasses the Sun and the stars then that's really not much of a prison, imo.
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

High Lord Tolkien wrote:in the second Chronicles there's a passage where Linden can discern how the Sunbane only hugs the surface of the Land, that it wasn't an alteration of the Sun itself. (I think it was when they made it to the Lower Level.
It was written in such a way that made it seem inconceivable that anything could alter the sun itself.

Which to me fit into the power levels I've established in my head about the Chronicles.
Foul is imprisoned on Earth by the Arch.
If the Arch extends through the near infinite expanse of the Universe so it encompasses the Sun and the stars then that's really not much of a prison, imo.
It just doesn't sound like that universe contains a vast amount of area. That world's people are more like goldfish put in a tank so that the Creator can observe them.
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

But if the Creator tries to reach inside the tank the glass shatters.
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

After I finished AATE I understood that this world is a geocentric one. When I stopped to think about it it made a lot more sense than a modern Physics world similar to ours.

Remember how the stars shot from the sky to protect the One Tree? If they were really huge distant suns that would be all kinds of impossible. But if they were small nearby magic lights floating above the atmosphere the scene becomes coherent.

As for how a whole world could be built around a Worm that's only a few hills big, magic is a wondrous thing and the magic essence contained in the stars was a very potent one. Like say a Liter of of alcohol 100% in 1,000,000 atmospheres. Sure it's only Liter but it would be enough to knock a lot of people.

And again it explains why only the Island of the One Tree sunk when the Worm convulsed instead of the whole world cracking up.
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Post by Auleliel »

I always thought that the universe of the Land was geocentric, and quite small, and I also thought the world of the Land was flat. I kind of imagined it like the description of the Earth in Genesis--flat, with everything contained in the "dome" of the sky, and the sun, moon, and stars roaming around on the inside surface of the dome.
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Post by Starfire 152 »

The last 7 paragraphs of AATE describe what is seen normally at sunrise. The eastern sky brightens, the stars fade, terrestrial objects and features become "vaguely" visible.

The moment when stars fade in the twilight is intensely subjective.

Remember the endings of the previous two books? Things are not as they appear. Reality can sneak up on our perceptions like Roger on a Cavewight. Suck-er!

The land's stars in the sky are probably not the "stars" of the Worm. Or Vain would have a stump, not a stick arm.

Remember the strange sky seen by the heroes near the end. Its quite possible that the upheavals of Worm/Earthpower can hide the sun.

Darkness is a sign of the end. Its probably the most demoralizing thing Foul can do. (Where's he been anyway?)

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Post by Zarathustra »

Starfire 152 wrote:The last 7 paragraphs of AATE describe what is seen normally at sunrise. The eastern sky brightens, the stars fade, terrestrial objects and features become "vaguely" visible.
Yes, exactly. I think the language here is all figurative. It's taking something mundane (dawn) and seeing it through the lense of the miraculous--both the miraculous that was always there, inherent in this glorious event, and the miraculous of what makes this particular dawn literally catastrophic: the coming of the Worm. Its approach has blotted out the sun, but the sun's glow is still there, and has blotted out the stars.

Many of us have watched sunsets, I'm sure. They are romantic, climactic, sweetly sad. They are an End, a spectacle, a transition into the mystical night when the earth drops away both in our sight and in our awareness as we go to sleep. But sunrises are something different, something that most of us don't stand around watching. It happens often while we're asleep, not looking, not noticing. We wake up with a day fully formed and take it for granted.

The return of the sun is the affirmation of hope, renewal, a new beginning. The transition from the spiritual/heavenly/dream world of the Night back into the brightness of the everyday mundane world of Day is both comforting and normalizing. The dimensions of reality ease back into smaller, more familiar, brighter, easier to grasp scope. But if you've ever watched it happen with the same attention you might give a sunset, you'll notice exactly what Donaldson describes here. The stars seem to get briefly brighter merely from the fact that you can still see them with dawn in the sky. If you've been watching them all along, you already know where the brightest ones are (unlike dusk when they often "sneak up" on you). Knowing their positions helps you to keep track of them as they fade one by one. It always surprises me how long I can see Jupiter or Venus against a blue sky, and this surprise can be characterized as a relative "brightening," the endurance it shows against this stronger light.

This day-without-a-dawn image is a classic staple of fantasy, right back to The Return of the King when Sauron sends forth his smokes and fumes to cover the land with darkness. Since the return of day is the return of the normal and the mundane--the fulfillment of the vague promise that the future will always be like the past--anything which disrupts this cycle calls our attention back to the largest scale of our existence, that scope which is revealed at night when we can literally see to the ends of the universe. The disruption of Future's Promise, the intrusion of the "spiritual" upon the mundane, and the expansion of reality to its largest scale, all combine to show us how illusory our complacency and self-imposed limits really are. We really don't have any assurance that the future will be like the past, nor is there anything about this world that is truly normal and mundane. The limits we enjoy during the day, which shrink reality down to a managable scope, are just subjective ways to make sense of the Void.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Sunbaneglasses wrote:Does The Worm have free reign to devour all sources of power within the AOT?
Yes, absolutely.

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