stephen donaldson vs tolkien

Post by **DarkReflection** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 2:13 pm

LOTR yeah, I find it difficult to summarize the entire epic in a single post.

But hey....sorry about that one.

Believe it or not I'm not a bad actor at all, if you'd ever like to discuss acting philosophy or various methods I would be more than happy to enlighten you.

I'm currently busy taking on the role of Jean ValJean in Les Miserables. Oh yeah I sing too. I recieved a full ride scholarship to the University of Laverne and graduated with a bachelors degree because of my portrayal of Biff Loman in Death of A Salesman, and Cyrano de' Bergerac in yeah you guessed it.

Oh well this has nothing to do with TCTC. I just found your comment about acting to be rather presumptuous, and I took a little offense, it's one of my two passions, and it's what I do for a living.

Oh well, whatever, no foul.

Goodnight Guys

Post by **dANdeLION** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 2:23 pm

I act not. My brother has dabbled in it, but not professionally. I draw and play bass, and make my living by doing both, though mainly drawing. I did not mean to be presumptuous, but your view of LOTR does not reflect the reality of it's popularity. My opinion is that you have sold LOTR way too short. It is one of the great works of the 20th century. It really remains to be seen if SRD's work will be similarly defined, though if it were up to me, it would be.

Post by **DarkReflection** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 3:26 pm

LOL....I act not. That's funny. I liked it.

I totally suck at drawing, stick figures are a challenge, but I do play guitar and bass. That I do rather enjoy.

Don't worry about it, really, no harm done my friend. You are right I am selling LOTR too short, it is a fantastic story, Tolkien had to have done somthing right to achieve the kind of phenomenon that is LOTR. I should re-read, it's been several years.

Yeah hopefully TCTC goes as far as LOTR has, I guess we'll see, though with the Third Chronicles coming out over the next 4-5 years it should do somthing for the series in the wake of LOTR movies.

What sort of drawing do you do? Although I'm no good at it myself, I do appreciate. I'd like to see some of your work sometime.

Post by **DarkReflection** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 3:27 pm

Who was the guest that wrote the thing about truth a few posts ago?

GUEST, please identify yourself.

Post by **DukkhaWaynhim** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:10 pm

Well, I'm confused now. Are we talking blatant rip-offs, or similar plot devices? Isn't one of them kind of illegal?

I don't think either author is guilty of blatant rip-offs of plot or whole characters, despite what comparisons can be made between their works and whatever others either author may have been influenced by.

'Rip-off' to me sounds like plagiarism, which is at best unethical, and IIRC can be legally held as a violation of copyright if the second work is sold for profit, which makes it illegal.

So, if we are really talking about a 'rip-off', then it seems that SRD may owe a bank-load of money to the Tolkien estate (or whoever owns the rights now).
However, I think that term is a little strong for what might truly be meant. Did he use Tolkien as his inspiration? Absolutely--Tolkien was one of probably many inspirations for SRD, though it is easiest to see his link to Tolkien via the similar fantasy thematic elements used, since both works are set in fantasy worlds---oh, which makes them both rip-offs of Alice in Wonderland, right?!

But seriously, yes there are many surface things that the two works have in common---I'm not sure what the original intent of this thread was, but I thought that it was to compare the two to pick out similarities and differences, and perhaps state preference opinions, rather than try to convict one author of plagiarism.

[Sidebar: the Forestals of TCTC may be based loosely on Tom Bombadil, but I hold that the similarities are only at the surface level---the tone of TB's presentation in LOTR made me think more of comic relief and animal crackers---I disliked Tom Bombadil in LOTR, and was relieved to see him completely written out of the movies---a personal opinion which may not be shared by others---the Forestals of TCTC to me were more perilous, or at least, more deadly-serious, so I liked them----and though they may have performed the same nominal function as LOTR-TomB., once the names have been placed on the "grand similarities list", the comparison should stop, because there isn't a meaningful one beyond that.]

Isn't imitation the sincerest form of flattery?

It is silly to claim that there are no similarities between the two, because as several have pointed out, there are many---um, coincidences

---but both works are of such high quality that at some point it becomes more of a chore to draw lines between the books instead of simply enjoying the novels in their own right.

DW
[Weird, warped, and "I know the tune for him"]

Post by **dANdeLION** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:29 pm

I make my living off of CAD drafting, both in surveying and engineering. When I draw, it's usually pencil or ink, and I like to draw people, World War II Planes, comic book characters, design basses, and whatever hits my fancy. I suppose I could scan what little of it I have kept, and put it in the Album section of KW. Tom C is a better artist than I, and way more prolific.

Post by **dANdeLION** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:35 pm

DukkhaWaynhim wrote:the Forestals of TCTC may be based loosely on Tom Bombadil, but I hold that the similarities are only at the surface level---the tone of TB's presentation in LOTR made me think more of comic relief and animal crackers---I disliked Tom Bombadil in LOTR, and was relieved to see him completely written out of the movies

I believe that Tolkein's concept for Bombadill was to be a sort of Jesus; full of joy, impervious to the temptation of power, and if you called on him, he would save you. Obviously Jesus is not limited by geography, but you get the point. Personally, I wish TB had been one of the additional scenes in the 4 DVD set, but alas, I hear it is not.

Post by **amanibhavam** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:39 pm

Ah, people, let's sue Shakespeare. He did not have one single original idea. Look at the bastard what he'd got out of it.

Post by **Loredoctor** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:58 pm

DukkhaWaynhim wrote:[Sidebar: the Forestals of TCTC may be based loosely on Tom Bombadil, but I hold that the similarities are only at the surface level---the tone of TB's presentation in LOTR made me think more of comic relief and animal crackers---I disliked Tom Bombadil in LOTR, and was relieved to see him completely written out of the movies---a personal opinion which may not be shared by others---the Forestals of TCTC to me were more perilous, or at least, more deadly-serious, so I liked them----and though they may have performed the same nominal function as LOTR-TomB., once the names have been placed on the "grand similarities list", the comparison should stop, because there isn't a meaningful one beyond that.]

I agree, my demondim cousin. I couldn't stand Tom Bombadil (it was silly and childish - sorry dAN). The Forestals are like the spirits of nature that Native Americans believe in - angry and just.

I also think LOTRs has some major weaknesses in its plot. TCTC has a deep intricacy; for instance, the manipulation of TC by Foul.

Post by **Dromond** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 8:37 pm

Zephalephelah wrote:
Dromond wrote:I remember reading the first time , thinking , Forestal!?! ENT RIPOFF!!

Is that what you're looking for, Zeph?
The Forestals became their own beings, totally unrelated to LOTR.
Forestal = Tom Bombadil.

But thanks for your comments & your ire.

Zeph, you are most welcome!
I suspect you consume my ire in much the same way Gibbon inhaled the euphoric malice of the flake of the Illearth Stone.

Post by **[Syl]** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 12:02 am

Don't tell me I'm the only Bombadil fan. Maybe it was just me, but I always felt something a little more... dangerous lurking just below Tom's surface. Almost ten years, I suppose I should do a re-read.

Post by **birdandbear** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 12:47 am

Holy smokes!!

This topic took off since yesterday...

Anonymous wrote:Truth is a relative concept, to ask an individual, "What's the truth?" Defies the nature of the question; so called truth is defined by the majority. We are our own answer, outside agreement is confirmation to our singular belief and therefore truth.

It's a great thing to find our truths in others, but universal truth is an amorphous concept, not defined by our reality, because it can't function in the strictures of our perception. If a stone can only be accepted as a stone by the senses, that is all that it can ever be. Some choose to see more, not its root or it's essence, but the acknowledgement of potential.

I'm not sure what you're responding to here guest, but it doesn't matter. I LOVE this post!

Very nicely put, and very "true"! (even though I can never use that word again with blithe confidence....

)

Angbasdil - I'm right there with you man! Apples and cinderblocks. Tolkien is one of my great passions. Don't dis the Tolkien!

DarkReflection - Jean Valjean - a prestigious role if ever there was one, congratulations! I'm a member of a tiny theatre company, a box theatre called, oddly enough, The Box.

Just wanted to give a nod of professional recognition, even though I'm not, and never will be a professional.

Syl - I agree with you! I've always suspected something a little more sinister under the surface of Bombadill. Not evil, but dangerous. In the way a volcano, or a tsunami is dangerous. He's an elemental, with ALL that implies.

And I think that's all I wanted to say....

Post by **Damelon** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:58 am

I always thought of Bombadil, not as dangerous, but as powerful without realizing the fact. Although, I guess it would be unwise to make him upset.

Post by **dANdeLION** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:38 am

Caer Sylvanus wrote:Don't tell me I'm the only Bombadil fan. Maybe it was just me, but I always felt something a little more... dangerous lurking just below Tom's surface. Almost ten years, I suppose I should do a re-read.

I am another Tom Bombadil Fan, and I suspect that Tom C is, too. Bombadil gave Frodo hope early on that the ring could be defeated.....

Post by **DarkReflection** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 1:51 pm

Dan I'd like to see those pictures if you could upload them.

BirdandBear thank you for your kind words. I am really enjoying this role, the high A at the end of "Who am I" is still just as exiting as ever. I'm hoping to tackle Phantom as soon as the opportunity comes my way, a personal dream role of mine. I have a list of four that I MUST do before I die.

Henry Jekyll / Edward Hyde
Jean Val Jean
Phantom
Scarlet Pimpernel

So far, I've taken on Jekyll & Hyde, and Val Jean, two more and I can rest in peace.

Post by **DarkReflection** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 1:55 pm

I'm with BirdandBear on the anonymous post, whoever wrote that, please step foreward and give us a hello, join our little community.

It took a few re-reads but I got it after a minute, nice insight, I agree.

Post by **dANdeLION** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:22 pm

DarkReflection wrote:Henry Jekyll / Edward Hyde
Jean Val Jean
Phantom
Scarlet Pimpernel

So far, I've taken on Jekyll & Hyde, and Val Jean, two more and I can rest in peace.

You ought to go to "Favourite Comic Movies" in General Sci-Fi/Fantasy and give us your thoughts on LXG's Jeckyll/Hyde.

Post by **dANdeLION** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:54 pm

Okay, I uploaded 3 of my drawings to "Member Galleries" in the Album. "It's A Pizza In The Box", "Architect Of Doom", and "Impalas On The Wing" were all done a long time ago. I have to figure out how to get 11 x 17 prints fit on my 8 1/2 x 14 scanner before I can post anything else....

Post by **birdandbear** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:54 pm

DarkReflection wrote:BirdandBear thank you for your kind words. I am really enjoying this role, the high A at the end of "Who am I" is still just as exiting as ever. I'm hoping to tackle Phantom as soon as the opportunity comes my way, a personal dream role of mine. I have a list of four that I MUST do before I die.

Henry Jekyll / Edward Hyde
Jean Val Jean
Phantom
Scarlet Pimpernel

So far, I've taken on Jekyll & Hyde, and Val Jean, two more and I can rest in peace.

I want to do Eponine, or Fantine (Cosette is just out of range....I'm a contralto

)
And The Beggar Woman in Sweeny Todd!

Post by **danlo** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:11 pm

You guys really need to start a Theatrical thread!

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

stephen donaldson vs tolkien

As an actor.....