Runes on the staff and black powers

[bikebryan]

I also still suspect that this Staff is the same one that Berek will wind up wielding. This, of course, requires the Staff to go backwards in time through another caesure.

[/color]

Not only do I not think this will happen, I will be really annoyed and disappointed if it does. There are two, discrete, never to be united Staves of Law...fundamentally different in origin, kind, and structure.

Well you don't specifically know the origin and structure of 'Berek's staff' do you?
I mean we're given hints, but until we're right there watching him make it it's pretty much unknown..

We know that the Theomach accompanied Berek to the Isle of the One Tree; his defeat of the Elohim that was guarding the One Tree opened the door for the creation of the first Staff of Law. So unless something happened to that staff and Berek replaced it with the staff created thousands of years later that was sent back in time...I don't see it. Besides, there is not tale in they history of the Land ever telling about the staff being the "second" staff.......

[ninjaboy]

Not only do I not think this will happen, I will be really annoyed and disappointed if it does. There are two, discrete, never to be united Staves of Law...fundamentally different in origin, kind, and structure.

Well you don't specifically know the origin and structure of 'Berek's staff' do you?
I mean we're given hints, but until we're right there watching him make it it's pretty much unknown..

We know that the Theomach accompanied Berek to the Isle of the One Tree; his defeat of the Elohim that was guarding the One Tree opened the door for the creation of the first Staff of Law. So unless something happened to that staff and Berek replaced it with the staff created thousands of years later that was sent back in time...I don't see it. Besides, there is not tale in they history of the Land ever telling about the staff being the "second" staff.......

We were indeed told that the Theomach and Brinn went to the Isle of the One Tree where the Theomach defeated the ancient guardian, yes..
But we don't specifically know what happenned after that. That Berek took a branch from the One Tree to make a Staff of Law is implied, never certified.
And of course there's no tale of any other staff, Berek made sure of that. But in point of fact, Berek saw Linden and her Staff before he even thought about making one for himself. So in his eyes his staff already IS the 'second' staff..

[Hashi Lebwohl]

We were indeed told that the Theomach and Brinn went to the Isle of the One Tree where the Theomach defeated the ancient guardian, yes..
But we don't specifically know what happenned after that. That Berek took a branch from the One Tree to make a Staff of Law is implied, never certified.
And of course there's no tale of any other staff, Berek made sure of that. But in point of fact, Berek saw Linden and her Staff before he even thought about making one for himself. So in his eyes his staff already IS the 'second' staff..

I concur. The story could be there just to satisfy the curious but might not reflect actual events.

The possibility still exists that Linden's current Staff could be sent backward in time to become Berek's Staff...but I somewhat doubt it--that would be too convenient.

[Starfire 152]

I dont like this scenario either.

lThe possibility still exists that Linden's current Staff could be sent backward in time to become Berek's Staff...but I somewhat doubt it--that would be too convenient.

I prefer forward time travel. Arrow of time and all that. ( Covenant seems to remember past events, nothing from the future, even though, as the Timewarden, he experienced "future" time)

I still want to know how Berek obtained his staff. Maybe the One Tree allows a one time gift of a branch. And why was Seadreamer slain? An amanestic response by the tree?

I think the Runes are Wildwood's way of sending a part of himself into a future when he knows he wont be around. If so, is the Madoubt meddling in the future when she knows she wont be around?

Its perplexing.

Thanks
Starfire 152

[ninjaboy]

I dont like this scenario either.

lThe possibility still exists that Linden's current Staff could be sent backward in time to become Berek's Staff...but I somewhat doubt it--that would be too convenient.

I prefer forward time travel. Arrow of time and all that. ( Covenant seems to remember past events, nothing from the future, even though, as the Timewarden, he experienced "future" time)

I still want to know how Berek obtained his staff. Maybe the One Tree allows a one time gift of a branch. And why was Seadreamer slain? An amanestic response by the tree?

I think the Runes are Wildwood's way of sending a part of himself into a future when he knows he wont be around. If so, is the Madoubt meddling in the future when she knows she wont be around?

Its perplexing.

Thanks
Starfire 152

I would definately prefer it if there were two seperate staffs, and hope there is, but you have to accept that the possibility exists where it's the one staff.. However with Joan gone, and hopefully TC, Linden and all their companions existing in the same time, there won't be any more caesures and time travel.. I mean it's still possible with the White Gold (x2) and the Great Horses of Ra, but hopefully it won't happen..

It would be grant to read about Berek actually taking the branch from the One Tree and turning into a Staff of Law, but I'm not expecting that story.. Especially now that TC has 'healed' his mind. Seadreamer sacrificed himself - he was the only one with the knowledge that to touch the tree would cause death to his companions, and being the Giant he was he couldn't allow them to go to their own deaths..
Perhaps the Elohim were behind those visions as well.
But it does appear that at one point a branch had been cut off the One Tree. And I have no idea how that could be possible.. Loric's Krill? Or maybe something made by Kasreyn of the Gyre? It seems Berek's Staff predated both Loric's blade and Kasreyn's reign.. Who knows?
They are good thoughts about the Forestal and the Mahdoubt.. I'm not entirely sure we're finished with their involvement in the story..

[Vraith]

But it does appear that at one point a branch had been cut off the One Tree. And I have no idea how that could be possible.. Loric's Krill? Or maybe something made by Kasreyn of the Gyre? It seems Berek's Staff predated both Loric's blade and Kasreyn's reign.. Who knows?

Berek had a pile of Earthpower/Lore, and he had an Insequent with him...one that took down an Elohim...in fact, I'd speculate that when Infelice said only one Insequent had affected them, it is just as likely [more likely, in my view] that she meant by enabling the creation of the first SOL as that she meant beating up the guardian.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

It is possible that Berek asked the One Tree to give him a branch, a request to which it readily agreed.

[wayfriend]

There are two places where the Staff's runes are prominent:

1) When Linden brings Covenant back to the living

2) During the fight in this book where they shine silver against the blackness of her Staff.

It seems in both cases they are restraining her passions and channeling them into productive directions.

I think that's basically the important point.

From an earlier discussion, in the FR forum, I mentioned the connection between lore and the Staff's runes.

Well, my theory is that the runes represent the addition of lore to the constituant components of the staff. Lore always meaning, to me, skill + knowledge + wisdom + experience.

It was formed in ignorance, and could not be otherwise than it is: this seems to bear up that theory. Linden had no lore, as the Lords had, when she constructed her staff.

The Forestal of Garroting Deep had engraved the ebony wood with his knowledge of Life and Death. Knowledge: Lore. The skill to manipulate the possibilities of those Laws. To weild Earthpower, guided by Law, to achieve a desired end.

Note that the runes were added during a time when the Laws of Life and Death were unbroken. Lore from this time is untained by the effects of Law which has been weakened. It is "pure". I bet half the author's reason Linden was sent back in time to get these runes lies in their being formed for the whole, strong versions of these Laws.

It "imposed a kind of structure on potential chaos": That's what lore does, it allows you to manipulate rather than be at the mercy of powers; it makes sense of them, lets you exert some control over them.

The connection between lore and the Staff's runes was one which Donaldson himself put forward in the GI.

Now, of course (I mean after "The Second Chronicles") *all* of Kevin's lore has effectively ceased to exist. (Linden's new Staff of Law doesn't even have *runes,* for crying out loud.)

(06/01/2004)

Therefore, it's quite plain that lore can exist in the form of the Staff's runes, and that therefore such runes must needs be lore.

And it is lore, I believe, that is "restraining" and "channeling" force that you describe. Structure restricts ("restrains") some expressions of power but reinforces ("channels") others. And lore is the structure here.

[DoctorGamgee]

I can't help but wonder if the blackness of the power of the staff has to deal with Vain, who was black and as part of the lore of which mixed with the elohim is being allowed to channel through the runes where Findial's restraints on it were removed? Perhaps finding a way to juxtapose the power and lore of the Viles and Urviles with that of the elohim? That is, of course, just speculation, but I am curious about your thoughts on the matter...

[DoctorGamgee]

Also, in regards to the One Staff/Space-Time displacement question: Is it just my imagination, or didn't we see Berek's staff destroyed? It has been a long time since I have read the original and second series, so I am sure I am missing something. But if the theory holds that the One Staff was created from the eldrich joining of Vain and Findail and is the staff which Linden retrieves in the new story then transplants back to Berek with Runes inscribed, wouldn't that mean that the Staff will not exist somewhere in the future as its cycle will end? Perhaps I have this wrong and someone will point out my glaring mistake. But that is a huge story to tell in one final book...how the staff morphs back into the staff we discover in LFB/I-ES, is given to Berek knowing it will be destroyed, and then returned only to start the cycle all over again in Final Chronicals to recover it. I am not saying it couldn't happen, but I am having a hard time following it to its ultimate ending with Elena. If indeed I have that correct...? A little help for the Noob would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Doc

[Vraith]

I can't help but wonder if the blackness of the power of the staff has to deal with Vain, who was black and as part of the lore of which mixed with the elohim is being allowed to channel through the runes where Findial's restraints on it were removed? Perhaps finding a way to juxtapose the power and lore of the Viles and Urviles with that of the elohim? That is, of course, just speculation, but I am curious about your thoughts on the matter...

I'm not quite sure I'm understanding/going to address what you're asking. But anyway: Vain, once "transformed" isn't a user of lore [even before that, he was more a device with limited functions than a thinking/learning/independent being] he is the product of lore. He is simply the pipe through which the power flows. The blackness, though both have it, doesn't mean the Vain-ness is being expressed. Even if that blackness in some symbol/metaphor relates. [If two rebels oppose the same gov't, that doesn't mean they are connected to each other, have the same purpose/goals/meaning]. The blackness, I think is literally the result of exceeding the capacity [flip it around...I think it is possible if the Runes were already inscribed, it might not have turned black]. Metaphorically it serves a number of roles...Linden's state of being/soul, that earthpower which supports life/creation will be called on to enact death/destruction, etc. [so it might have ended black, even with the runes, to serve those other purposes] I think it's important to note two things: First, as far as we know, when an elohim is put to a purpose it always involves restraint/constraint...no choices, no will, no freedom for the one sacrificed/appointed...that implies something essential: they could have contained the skurj/destroyed the croyel/defended the forests/protected the one tree by rotating shifts/teams/duties, but they would rather strip one of their own of all selfdom so the rest can keep flitting around as carefree butterflies, being the superior word of the earth, 3 year old spoiled prince/sses at the center of the universe, la-de-freakin-da.
Second: the Runes glow silver against the black. I think the meaning of that is multiple, and important...but the main thing I can point at [only semi-speculative instead of completely so] is TC's resurrection would have failed without them...without them, his living being could not have been defined strictly enough to exist.
Does that at all relate to your ponderings?
EDITED to add: yes, we saw the destruction of the first staff.
EDITED a second time to add: there are 2 different staves. Any time-contortion conclusions/speculations that they are the same is, IMnotatallinthiscaseHO, pure fantasy. [heh...though I could be wrong].

[Aleksandr]

That Berek took a branch from the One Tree to make a Staff of Law is implied, never certified.

In TOT when the quest reaches their goal TC notes that a limb of the one tree ended in abrupt stump as if the rest of it had been cut off. I think we are meant conclude that this is the limb Berek took.

However there is a bit of a mystery how he got away wth it. Findail's explanation that the Worm was not wakened by combat first is obviously not true. Did the Theomach have some Worm-lore by which he kept the Worm quiescent for Berek? If so, why didn't Brinn inherit it and use it in TOT to prevent the disaster there?

[earthbrah]

Vraith wrote:

but they would rather strip one of their own of all selfdom so the rest can keep flitting around as carefree butterflies, being the superior word of the earth, 3 year old spoiled prince/sses at the center of the universe, la-de-freakin-da.

[DoctorGamgee]

Vraith, I am totally with you on the Two Staves thoughts, there was no way that I could find to make it one, but then again, I am not a SRD scholar so was willing to listen to somebody make the argument before turning it out-of-hand.

As regards to Vain/Findail staff: certainly he was fashioned to be a pipe through which the power flowed, especially when combined/constrained by Findail's essence. In this instance, they were mixed to create the new Staff of Law and harness Earth Power.

And if I understand correctly, Earth Power and Wild Magic are antagonistic in their properties. The Staff didn't set off the Ring in the way that the Illearth Stone did, or in more symbolic terms, Law is Order, Wild Magic is Chaos. And that is why Loric's Krill was needed -- to channel the two divisive energies into a single focus: the reconstruction of TC. This single act, which did not use the Blood of the Earth to speak into being, is seemingly the lawful (by the power of the Staff) breaking of the Law by Wild magic such that chaos is turned into structure without disrupting the Arch of Time.

But that is something that the Staff of Law was not intended to do and a stress for which neither Findail nor Vain was intended. Their joining was to empower Law, not to defy it. And, of course, neither should it have ever come into contact with the Forestall...for without the Caesuras, there was never the possibility of a Forestall empowered like Caerroil Wildwood. So if that is the case, and with the Forestall created by the One Forest, he would know that the Staff was not cut from wood of the One Tree, wouldn't he? And if so, those runes intent and power is the purpose of this speculative thread, is it not?

One must also consider that, as we all know, White Gold is a compound as well, similarly mixed as Vain/Findail, and as such, can be separated into the original ingredients (Gold/Silver--nickle, etc). It is curious that you (I believe) pointed out that the runes glowed Silver.

To my knowledge, Wildwood would never have come into contact with White Gold and as a Forestall, metalurgy would not have been its prime focus of study. But if the surrender of TC to LF at the end of the Second book to become the Arch of Time (encompassing all time), then it is possible that this knowledge finaly got back to him. What he would have done with that knowledge, in light of all that was lost with the failure of the Collosus (an Elohim creation), it is not likely, but possible, that the desire to remove the Elohim from the equation of the staff, or to allow it to be used beyond its strength/character might have been the purpose for etching the second staff...

There is much to ponder, and I am not sure I have any conclusions. I am certain that Linden's extravagance is part of the equation, as the runes are. Where this will lead, we shall have to wait to see. Just sharing ideas for what they are worth.

Doc

[MsMary]

That Berek took a branch from the One Tree to make a Staff of Law is implied, never certified.

In TOT when the quest reaches their goal TC notes that a limb of the one tree ended in abrupt stump as if the rest of it had been cut off. I think we are meant conclude that this is the limb Berek took.

However there is a bit of a mystery how he got away wth it. Findail's explanation that the Worm was not wakened by combat first is obviously not true. Did the Theomach have some Worm-lore by which he kept the Worm quiescent for Berek? If so, why didn't Brinn inherit it and use it in TOT to prevent the disaster there?

Brinn became the guardian of the One Tree by defeating the Theomach in one-on-one combat, but it doesn't follow that he got all the Theomach's powers and knowledge. I think it's unlikely that he did.