the redemption of Thomas Covenant
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- Lord Zombiac
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the redemption of Thomas Covenant
broken down in moments. Contribute your own observations.
1. Saltheart Foamfollower.
This was Coventant's first bond with the Land. The first person Covenant learned to love, the first person to move him. Up until this point even the unfettered one could not move him. He was too filled with remorse.
Covenant's regret for not saying goodbye to Foamfollower was his first major breaking point as "the Unbeliever."
2. Crying.
When Elena is killed Covenant can not cry for her, his concerns with his leprosy will not afford him that degree of humanity, but in the second series, Covenant begins to shed tears. It is the re-union with his Dead in Andelain that cements his connection with the Land and all he has gone through. At the beginning of the second series, his status as the "unbeliever" has been mitigated to the role of an agnostic. His explanation to Linden of the Land is that perhaps this is a dream they are sharing. He is no longer certain. But the argument of whether or not he believes is made secondary to his great love of the land.
Covenant laments continually that Linden has not known the beauty and power of the Land and Earthpower.
It is no coincidence that Covenant has begun to shed tears, and also begun to neglect all of the conditions his leprosy has imposed on him.
3. Denial by the Elohim.
Up until this point Covenant has been revered and honored as the white gold wielder. He is bestowed with the title of "Ur-Lord." He is accorded the protection and service of the Bloodguard. His treatment by the Elohim undermines every effort he has made thus far to bitterly reject such special treatment. Denied special status, he has come now to value it. The Elohim deny him even the basic ability to interact with others. Through the denial of his essential value to the Land, Covenant has learned to believe in himself. He has begun to display heroic qualities at this point.
4. Death.
Covenant's death in our world has now completely eradicated his status as the "unbeliever." Like Caer Caveral's transformation from Hile Troy, Covenant no longer exists in our world. He has embraced this connection even to the extent that he knows he is the White Gold, and that his connection to Lord Foul is so intimate as to make them one and the same.
***
Help out, if you can pinpoint any other significant events that serve to redeem Covenant.
1. Saltheart Foamfollower.
This was Coventant's first bond with the Land. The first person Covenant learned to love, the first person to move him. Up until this point even the unfettered one could not move him. He was too filled with remorse.
Covenant's regret for not saying goodbye to Foamfollower was his first major breaking point as "the Unbeliever."
2. Crying.
When Elena is killed Covenant can not cry for her, his concerns with his leprosy will not afford him that degree of humanity, but in the second series, Covenant begins to shed tears. It is the re-union with his Dead in Andelain that cements his connection with the Land and all he has gone through. At the beginning of the second series, his status as the "unbeliever" has been mitigated to the role of an agnostic. His explanation to Linden of the Land is that perhaps this is a dream they are sharing. He is no longer certain. But the argument of whether or not he believes is made secondary to his great love of the land.
Covenant laments continually that Linden has not known the beauty and power of the Land and Earthpower.
It is no coincidence that Covenant has begun to shed tears, and also begun to neglect all of the conditions his leprosy has imposed on him.
3. Denial by the Elohim.
Up until this point Covenant has been revered and honored as the white gold wielder. He is bestowed with the title of "Ur-Lord." He is accorded the protection and service of the Bloodguard. His treatment by the Elohim undermines every effort he has made thus far to bitterly reject such special treatment. Denied special status, he has come now to value it. The Elohim deny him even the basic ability to interact with others. Through the denial of his essential value to the Land, Covenant has learned to believe in himself. He has begun to display heroic qualities at this point.
4. Death.
Covenant's death in our world has now completely eradicated his status as the "unbeliever." Like Caer Caveral's transformation from Hile Troy, Covenant no longer exists in our world. He has embraced this connection even to the extent that he knows he is the White Gold, and that his connection to Lord Foul is so intimate as to make them one and the same.
***
Help out, if you can pinpoint any other significant events that serve to redeem Covenant.
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"everything that passes unattempted is impossible"-- Lord Mhoram, the Illearth War.
"everything that passes unattempted is impossible"-- Lord Mhoram, the Illearth War.
His courteous and sensitive treatment of the Ramen girl at Manhome (I forget her name.)
His acceptance of pain. This is gradual, and learned the hard way (eg walking on a compound fracture), but he progresses from horrified whining in LFB "I'm in pain!" to complete stoicism in TWL "Pain is life. Only the dead are free of it."
His acceptance of pain. This is gradual, and learned the hard way (eg walking on a compound fracture), but he progresses from horrified whining in LFB "I'm in pain!" to complete stoicism in TWL "Pain is life. Only the dead are free of it."
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- Lord Zombiac
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yeah, a little earlier than I said.
httpsss://www.barbarianclan.com
"everything that passes unattempted is impossible"-- Lord Mhoram, the Illearth War.
"everything that passes unattempted is impossible"-- Lord Mhoram, the Illearth War.
- Linna Heartbooger
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Some things that NEEDED to be added to this list:
1. Mhoram coming to him as a FRIEND.
From the start, Mhoram was there to serve him, not to use him.
someone having compassion on him and viewing HIM as a person to be valued and cared for, not a tool to be used. Just like Foamfollower's. So huge.
2. Covenant's refusing Elena's advances
In spite of what it opened him up to... it just, yeah... I make no real logical defense of it other than the rightness of it. =P
3. Covenant's giving Lena the place of "queen"
...and the regret that brought him to that place, not to mention back to the land, more willing to be involved. (I think.)
4. That whole family's sacrifices; Atiaran's willingness to attempt summoning him back to the land, and Trell's desperation that drove him to desecration... both these things touched off something inside Covenant.
5. The giants' caamora
(though maybe you could put this under "Foamfollower.")
Hmm, I think I need a re-read..
1. Mhoram coming to him as a FRIEND.
From the start, Mhoram was there to serve him, not to use him.
someone having compassion on him and viewing HIM as a person to be valued and cared for, not a tool to be used. Just like Foamfollower's. So huge.
2. Covenant's refusing Elena's advances
In spite of what it opened him up to... it just, yeah... I make no real logical defense of it other than the rightness of it. =P
3. Covenant's giving Lena the place of "queen"
...and the regret that brought him to that place, not to mention back to the land, more willing to be involved. (I think.)
4. That whole family's sacrifices; Atiaran's willingness to attempt summoning him back to the land, and Trell's desperation that drove him to desecration... both these things touched off something inside Covenant.
5. The giants' caamora
(though maybe you could put this under "Foamfollower.")
Hmm, I think I need a re-read..

"People without hope not only don't write novels, but what is more to the point, they don't read them.
They don't take long looks at anything, because they lack the courage.
The way to despair is to refuse to have any kind of experience, and the novel, of course, is a way to have experience."
-Flannery O'Connor
"In spite of much that militates against quietness there are people who still read books. They are the people who keep me going."
-Elisabeth Elliot, Preface, "A Chance to Die: The Life and Legacy of Amy Carmichael"
They don't take long looks at anything, because they lack the courage.
The way to despair is to refuse to have any kind of experience, and the novel, of course, is a way to have experience."
-Flannery O'Connor
"In spite of much that militates against quietness there are people who still read books. They are the people who keep me going."
-Elisabeth Elliot, Preface, "A Chance to Die: The Life and Legacy of Amy Carmichael"
- Linna Heartbooger
- Are you not a sine qua non for a redemption?
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BTW, LZ, I thought that listing just "Crying" in that list was really insightful! That would only have struck me about Linden's bond w the Land; in my mind's eye, I see Linden as someone whose face is perpetually flowing with tears.
Also find your analysis of the interaction between the Elohim & Covenant interesting... I wasn't catching that when I read it, I think... I was so mad at the Elohim & wanted so desperately to see if/how his need would be met, I wasn't stepping back to do analysis...
Also find your analysis of the interaction between the Elohim & Covenant interesting... I wasn't catching that when I read it, I think... I was so mad at the Elohim & wanted so desperately to see if/how his need would be met, I wasn't stepping back to do analysis...
"People without hope not only don't write novels, but what is more to the point, they don't read them.
They don't take long looks at anything, because they lack the courage.
The way to despair is to refuse to have any kind of experience, and the novel, of course, is a way to have experience."
-Flannery O'Connor
"In spite of much that militates against quietness there are people who still read books. They are the people who keep me going."
-Elisabeth Elliot, Preface, "A Chance to Die: The Life and Legacy of Amy Carmichael"
They don't take long looks at anything, because they lack the courage.
The way to despair is to refuse to have any kind of experience, and the novel, of course, is a way to have experience."
-Flannery O'Connor
"In spite of much that militates against quietness there are people who still read books. They are the people who keep me going."
-Elisabeth Elliot, Preface, "A Chance to Die: The Life and Legacy of Amy Carmichael"
- SleeplessOne
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the redemption of Thomas Covenant
of course TC's ultimate redemption is perfectly encapsulated in the final paragraphs of TPTP, when he is finally able to smile after dozens of abortive attempts throughout the first chrons.
Many times SRD describes TC's painful attempts to simply connect to his companions with a simple smile; his efforts always 'collapse into a grimace', or his cheeks are too numb or stiff.
Illender, I agree that TC's surrender to grief and tears in TPTP was also a powerful and redemptive moment, another moment of TC's love of life and need for passion being restored to him.
But yeah, I recall nearing the final few pages of the 1st chrons and speculating that the perfect way for SRD to end the tale would be with TC smiling, and he didn't let me down.
Many times SRD describes TC's painful attempts to simply connect to his companions with a simple smile; his efforts always 'collapse into a grimace', or his cheeks are too numb or stiff.
Illender, I agree that TC's surrender to grief and tears in TPTP was also a powerful and redemptive moment, another moment of TC's love of life and need for passion being restored to him.
But yeah, I recall nearing the final few pages of the 1st chrons and speculating that the perfect way for SRD to end the tale would be with TC smiling, and he didn't let me down.
He smiled because he was alive
- Linna Heartbooger
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Didn't think about his failed attempts to smile so much... thanks for bringing that up.
Also, in defense of my earlier point:
For me, the "heart" of the Land isn't really Revelstone, but Mithil Stonedown. I guess, that's a rather hero-centric view of the Chrons.
Also, in defense of my earlier point:
Their sacrifices and devotion in spite of who he was... were what made it impossible for him to avoid certain truths about himself.First and last, her [Lena's] people had borne the brunt of him: Trell Gravelingas, Atiaran Trell-mate, High Lord Elena, Lena herself-- he had ruined them all. Such things altered him, made a different man of him.
For me, the "heart" of the Land isn't really Revelstone, but Mithil Stonedown. I guess, that's a rather hero-centric view of the Chrons.
"People without hope not only don't write novels, but what is more to the point, they don't read them.
They don't take long looks at anything, because they lack the courage.
The way to despair is to refuse to have any kind of experience, and the novel, of course, is a way to have experience."
-Flannery O'Connor
"In spite of much that militates against quietness there are people who still read books. They are the people who keep me going."
-Elisabeth Elliot, Preface, "A Chance to Die: The Life and Legacy of Amy Carmichael"
They don't take long looks at anything, because they lack the courage.
The way to despair is to refuse to have any kind of experience, and the novel, of course, is a way to have experience."
-Flannery O'Connor
"In spite of much that militates against quietness there are people who still read books. They are the people who keep me going."
-Elisabeth Elliot, Preface, "A Chance to Die: The Life and Legacy of Amy Carmichael"
- peter
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I wonder if another village had been closer to Kevins Watch, would it also have had the ability to churn out Hero's. I think it's just something about the Land's people - they lend themselves to being heroic because of their inherent humility covering grit, fairness and determination.
President of Peace? You fucking idiots!
"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
- Falconer Winterleaf
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Odd. I don't think of either of those as the heart of the land. I thnik then heart of the Land is Andelain. And not just cause it's right in the middle of the Upper Land!Lina Heartlistener wrote:Didn't think about his failed attempts to smile so much... thanks for bringing that up.
Also, in defense of my earlier point:
Their sacrifices and devotion in spite of who he was... were what made it impossible for him to avoid certain truths about himself.First and last, her [Lena's] people had borne the brunt of him: Trell Gravelingas, Atiaran Trell-mate, High Lord Elena, Lena herself-- he had ruined them all. Such things altered him, made a different man of him.
For me, the "heart" of the Land isn't really Revelstone, but Mithil Stonedown. I guess, that's a rather hero-centric view of the Chrons.
Also, the name of the Ramen girl, at that point, is Gay. She renamed herself, but I can't remember to what.
"Branches spread and tree trunks grow
Through rain and heat and snow and cold:
Though wide world's winds untimely blow,
And earthquakes rock and cliff unseal,
My leaves grow green and seedlings bloom
Since days before the Earth was old
And Time began its walk to doom,
The Forests world's bare rock anneal,
Forbidding dusty waste and death
I am the Land's Creator's hold:
I inhale all expiring breath,
And breath out life to bind and heal.
But ax and fire leave me dead.
I know the hate of hands grown bold.
Depart to save your heart-sap's red:
My hate knows neither rest nor weal."
TCTC: About to start FR
Through rain and heat and snow and cold:
Though wide world's winds untimely blow,
And earthquakes rock and cliff unseal,
My leaves grow green and seedlings bloom
Since days before the Earth was old
And Time began its walk to doom,
The Forests world's bare rock anneal,
Forbidding dusty waste and death
I am the Land's Creator's hold:
I inhale all expiring breath,
And breath out life to bind and heal.
But ax and fire leave me dead.
I know the hate of hands grown bold.
Depart to save your heart-sap's red:
My hate knows neither rest nor weal."
TCTC: About to start FR
- Linna Heartbooger
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Yes.peter wrote:I think it's just something about the Land's people - they lend themselves to being heroic because of their inherent humility covering grit, fairness and determination.
Ahh. Andelain. Yes... I can see that.Falconer Winterleaf wrote:Odd. I don't think of either of those as the heart of the land. I thnik then heart of the Land is Andelain. And not just cause it's right in the middle of the Upper Land!
Rue. She became Manethrall Rue.Falconer Winterleaf wrote:Also, the name of the Ramen girl, at that point, is Gay. She renamed herself, but I can't remember to what.
Actually, I'm sure SRD ripped that from the Book of Ruth: "Don't call me Naomi [joy]; call me Marah [bitter]."
"People without hope not only don't write novels, but what is more to the point, they don't read them.
They don't take long looks at anything, because they lack the courage.
The way to despair is to refuse to have any kind of experience, and the novel, of course, is a way to have experience."
-Flannery O'Connor
"In spite of much that militates against quietness there are people who still read books. They are the people who keep me going."
-Elisabeth Elliot, Preface, "A Chance to Die: The Life and Legacy of Amy Carmichael"
They don't take long looks at anything, because they lack the courage.
The way to despair is to refuse to have any kind of experience, and the novel, of course, is a way to have experience."
-Flannery O'Connor
"In spite of much that militates against quietness there are people who still read books. They are the people who keep me going."
-Elisabeth Elliot, Preface, "A Chance to Die: The Life and Legacy of Amy Carmichael"
- peter
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Do you remember Lina Heartlistener, what event(s) turned the young Winhome Gay into Manethrall Rue. I'm certain it was a battle or somesuch in which someone special to her was killed - but I could be way off track. Anyway - something as significant as to make a young lass change her name in this way should be rememberd......
President of Peace? You fucking idiots!
"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
- Linna Heartbooger
- Are you not a sine qua non for a redemption?
- Posts: 3896
- Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:17 pm
- Been thanked: 1 time
Manethrall was more like an "office" that she earned... first Winhome, then Cord, then Manethrall.. so she would have become Manethrall Gay.peter wrote:Do you remember Lina Heartlistener, what event(s) turned the young Winhome Gay into Manethrall Rue. I'm certain it was a battle or somesuch in which someone special to her was killed - but I could be way off track. Anyway - something as significant as to make a young lass change her name in this way should be rememberd......
The event that turned her into Rue... I would need to look it up too. Looks like TIW Chapter 11. Darker than just a "straightforward" battle... probably more the ravaging required for Foul to assemble the army he did; perhaps the seeming-betrayal - i.e. the Illearth-baned giant leading the charge. =(
kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... thrall+rue
"People without hope not only don't write novels, but what is more to the point, they don't read them.
They don't take long looks at anything, because they lack the courage.
The way to despair is to refuse to have any kind of experience, and the novel, of course, is a way to have experience."
-Flannery O'Connor
"In spite of much that militates against quietness there are people who still read books. They are the people who keep me going."
-Elisabeth Elliot, Preface, "A Chance to Die: The Life and Legacy of Amy Carmichael"
They don't take long looks at anything, because they lack the courage.
The way to despair is to refuse to have any kind of experience, and the novel, of course, is a way to have experience."
-Flannery O'Connor
"In spite of much that militates against quietness there are people who still read books. They are the people who keep me going."
-Elisabeth Elliot, Preface, "A Chance to Die: The Life and Legacy of Amy Carmichael"
- peter
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Yes, I'm sure there was a specific event behind this but alas I lent my first series to a lad at work (he had loved King's Dark Tower series and I wanted to give him a taste of real fantasy; he didn't get into it but still never gave it back), so I can't even go back to find out what!
President of Peace? You fucking idiots!
"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard