Jesus the man or Jesus the Son of God

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rusmeister
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Post by rusmeister »

Murrin wrote:
rusmeister wrote:Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is risen from the dead. It's that simple, Murrin. It's amazing, it's not a normal or usual thing, it IS an astounding claim. But it IS the answer.
Answer the question that was asked.
Loremaster wrote:Yet, and this where your argument fails utterly, what is your system for discounting other religions? I've heard UFO cultists claim truth, as much as any Muslim or New Ager. What is it that doubts their claims? Why are you more correct?
I'll offer this answer. No answer could possibly be both serious, convincing, and short, and it addresses four points commonly raised, as they were a hundred years ago:

www.gkc.org.uk/gkc/books/Christianity_a ... alism.html

And I'll go on strike till somebody reads it. I'm through with the people who will only read what I personally type.
This is entered in from one of four Chesterton essays in the collection cited below. Maisie Ward references this material as being some of his best and also, ironically, some of his earliest. Haw, George, ed. The Religious Doubts of Democracy. London: MacMillan, 1904.
Christianity and Rationalism

My friend, Mr. George Haw, has asked me to state, in one or two articles, my general belief on the subject of Christianity, to be inserted in the Clarion. I will not pretend to any particlular reluctance to do so; but I ought not to do it without first of all offering to Mr. Blatchford our gratitude, and something which is better than gratitude, our congratulations, upon the very magnanimous action which he has taken in thus putting this paper into the hands of the religious opponents. In doing so he has scored, in a generous unconsciousness, a real point.

Most of the awful revelations of Christian evil and ignorance do not, I am afraid, affect me in quite so serious a manner as they ought to. When I hear that a German professor has found the four-hundreth accurate origin of protoplasm, I try in vain to feel excitement; when I read that savages paint their faces green to please the ghosts (or what not), I have no feeling beyond a vague pleasure and sympathy. Both the German professor and the green-faced savage seem to me to be doing the same thing--that is, falling under the influence of that starry impulse which leads men to take a vast deal of trouble about quite useless things.

But such things do not make much difference to my view of Christianity. In the whole of this controversy I have felt the force of one thing, which has really hit practical Christianity; I think it is a good argument; I think it is a terrible argument. It is not that this controversy is being conducted in a non-Christian paper. It certainly is a fair point scored against a religion that the people who seem to be most interested in it are those who believe it to be a fraud. I think, therefore, that Mr. Blatchford's magnanimity, like all magnanimity, is profoundly philosophical and wise.

Nor do I blame him, as some have done, for having discussed it at great length; as the subject is the nature of the Universe, it is necessarily as large as the Universe, and as rich as the Universe, and I may add, as amusing as the Universe.

In fact, I fancy there must be such a thing as Immortality, merely that Mr. Blatchford and I may have time to discuss whether it is true.

Before I give an outline of my view, there is one other thing to be said in which I cannot avoid the personal note. I have begun to realise that there are a good many people to whom my way of speaking about these things appears like an indication that I am flippant or imperfectly sincere. Since, as a matter of fact, I am more certain of myself in this affair than I am of the existence of the moon, this naturally causes me some considerable regret; but I think I see the naturalness of the mistake and how it arose in people for removed from the Christian atmosphere. Christianity is itself so jolly a thing that it fills the possessor of it with a certain silly exuberance, which sad and high-minded Rationalists might reasonably mistake for mere buffoonery and blasphemy; just as their prototypes, the sad and high-minded Stoics of old Rome, did mistake the Christian joyousness for buffoonery and blasphemy.

This difference holds good everywhere, in the cold Pagan architectrure and the grinning gargoyles of Christendom, in the preposterous motley of the Middle Ages and the dingy dress of this Rationlistic century. And if Mr. Blatchford wishes to know why we should be surprised if the Duke of Devonshire walked about with one leg red and the other yellow (as a nobleman might have done in the thirteenth century), I can obligingly inform him that it is because of the decay of our faith. Nowhere in history has there ever been any popular brightness and gaiety without religion.

The first of all the difficulities that I have in controverting Mr. Blatchford is simply this, that I shall be very largely going over his own ground. My favourite text-book of theology is God and my Neighbour but I cannot repeat it in detail. If I gave each of my reasons for being a Christian, a vast number of them would be Mr. Blachford's reasons for not being one.

For instance, Mr. Blatchford and his school point out that there are many myths parallel to the Christian story; that there were Pagan Christs, and Red Indian Incarnations, and Patagonian Crucifixions, for all I know or care. But does not Mr. Blatchford see the other side of this fact? If the Christian God really made the human race, would not the human race tend to rumours and perversions of the Christian God? If the center of our life is a certain fact, would not people far from the center have a muddled version of that fact? If we are so made that a Son of God must deliver us, is it odd that Patagonians should dream of a Son of God?

The Blatchfordian position really amounts to this--that because a certain thing has impressed millions of different people as likely or necessary therefore is connot be true. And then this bashful being, veiling his own talents, convicts the wretched G.K.C. of paradox! I like paradox, but I am not prepared to dance and dazzle to the extent of Nunquam, who points to humanity crying out to a thing, and pointing to it from immemorial ages, as a proof that it cannot be there.

The story of a Christ is very common in legend and literature. So is the story of two lovers parted by Fate. So is the story of two friends killing each other for a woman. But will it seriously be maintained that, because these two stories are common as legends, therefore not two friends were ever separated by love or no two lovers by circumstances? It is tolerably plain, surely, that these two stories are common because the situation is an intensely probable and human one, because our nature is so built as to make them almost inevitable.

Why should it not be that our nature is so built as to make certain spiritual events inevitable? In any case, it is clearly ridiculous to attempt to disprove Christianity by the number and variety of Pagan Christs. You might as well take the number and variety of ideal schemes of society, from Plato's Republic to Morris' News from Nowhere, from More's Utopia to Blatchford's Merrie England, and then try and prove from them that mankind cannot ever reach a better social condition. If anything, of course, they prove the opposite; they suggest a human tendency towards a better condition.

Thus, in this first instance, when learned skeptics come to me and say, "Are you aware that the Kaffirs have a story of Incarnation?" I should reply: "Speaking as an unlearned person, I don't know. But speaking as a Christian, I should be very much astonished if they hadn't."

Take a second instance. The Secularist says that Christianity has been a gloomy and ascetic thing, and points to the procession of austere or ferocious saints who have given up home and happiness and macerated health and sex. But it never seems to occur to him that the very oddity and completeness of the men's surrender make it look very much as if there were really something actual and solid in the thing for which they sold themselves. They gave up all human experiences for the sake on one superhuman experience. They may have been wicked, but it looks as if there were such an experience.

It is perfectly tenable that this experience is as dangerous and selfish a thing as drink. A man who goes ragged and homeless in order to see visions may be as repellent and immoral as a man who goes ragged and homeless in order to drink brandy. That is a quite reasonable position. But what is manifestly not a reasonable position what would be, in fact not far from being an insane position, would be to say that the raggedness of the man, and the homelessness of the man, and the stupefied degradation of the man proved that there was no such thing as brandy.

That is precisely what the Secularist tries to say. He tries to prove that there is no such think as supernatural experience by pointing at the people who have given up everything for it. He tries to prove that there is no such thing by proving that there are people who live on nothing else.

Again I may submissively ask: "Whose is the paradox?" The frantic severity of these men may, of course, show that they were eccentric people who loved unhappiness for its own sake. But is seems more in accordance with commonsense to suppose that they had really found the secret of some actual power or experience which was, like wine, a terrible consolation and a lonely joy.

Thus, then, in the second instance, when the learned sceptic says to me: "Christian saints gave up love and liberty for this one rapture of Christianity, I should have been surprised if they hadn't."

Take a third instance. The Secularist says that Christianity produced tumult and cruelty. He seems to suppose that this proves it to be bad. But it might prove it to be very good. For men commit crimes not only for bad things, far more often for good things. For no bad things can be desired quite so passionately and persistently as good things can be desired and only very exceptional men desire very bad and unnatural things.

Most crime is committed because, owing to some peculiar complication, very beautiful or necessary things are in some danger. For instance, if we wanted to abolish thieving and swindling at one blow, the best thing to do would be to abolish babies. Babies, the most beautiful things on earth, have been the excuse and origin of almost all the business of brutality and financial infamy on earth.

If we could abolish monogamic or romantic love, again the country would be dotted with Maiden Assizes. And if anywhere in history masses of common and kindly men become cruel it almost certainly does not mean that they are serving something in itself tyrannical (for why should they?). It almost certainly does mean that something that they rightly value is in peril such as the food of their children, the chasity of their women, or the independence of their country. And when something is set before them that is not only enormously valuable, but also quite new, the sudden vision, the chance of winning it, the chance of losing it, drive them mad. It has the same effect in the moral world that the finding of gold has in the economic world. It upsets values, and creates a kind of cruel rush.

We need not go far for instances quite apart from the instances of religion. When the modern doctrines of brotherhood and liberty were preached in France in the eighteenth century the time was ripe for them, the educated classes everywhere had been growing towards them, the world to a very considerable extend welcomed them. And yet all that preparation and openness were unable to prevent the burst of anger and agony which greets anything good. And if the slow and polite preaching of rational fraternity in a rational age ended in the massacres of September, what an a fortiori is here! What would be likely to be the effect of the sudden dropping into a dreadfully evil century of a dreadfully perfect truth? What would happen if a world baser than the world of Sade were confronted with a gospel purer than the gospel of Rousseau?

The mere flinging of the polished pebble of Republican Indealism into the artificial lake of eighteenth century Europe produced a splash that seemed to splash the heavens, and a storm that drowned ten thousand men. What would happen if a star from heaven really fell into the slimy and bloody pool of a hopless and decaying humanity? Men swept a city with the guillotine, a continent with the sabre, because Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity were too precious to be lost. How if Christianity was yet more maddening because it was yet more precious?

But why should we labour the point when One who knew human nature as it can really be learnt, from fishermen and women and natural people, saw from his quiet village the track of this truth across history, and, in saying that He came to bring not peace but a sword, set up eternally His colossal realism against the eternal sentimentality of the Secularist?

Thus, then, in the third instance, when the learned sceptic says: "Christianiaity produced wars and persecutions," we shall reply: "Naturally."

And, lastly, let me take an example which leads me on directly to the general matter I wish to discuss for the remining space of the articles at my command. The Secularist constantly points out that the Hebrew and Christian religions began as local things; that their god was a tribal god; that they gave him material form, and attached him to particular places.

This is an excellent example of one of the things that if I were conducting a detailed campaign I should use as an argument for the validity of Biblical experience. For if there really are some other and higher beings than ourselves, and if they in some strange ways, at some emotional crisis, really revealed themselves to rude poets or dreamers in very simple times, that the rude people should regard the revelation as local, and connect it with the particular hill or river where it happened, seems to me exactly what any reasonable human being would expect. It has a far more credible look than if they had talked cosmic philosophy from the beginning. If they had, I should have suspected "priestcraft" and forgeries and third-century Gnosticism

If there be such a being as God, and He can speak to a child, and if God spoke to a child in the garden the child would, of course, say that God lived in the garden. I should not think it any less likely to be true for that. If the child said: "God is everywhere: an impalpable essence pervading and supporting all constituents of the Cosmos alike"--if, I say, the infant addressed me in the above terms, I should think he was mouch more likely to have been with the governess than with God.

So if Moses had said God was an Infinite Energy, I should be certain he had seen nothing extraordinary. As he said He was a Burning Bush, I think it very likely that he did see something extraordinary. For whatever be the Divine Secret, and whether or no it has (as all people have believed) sometimes broken bounds and surged into our work, at least it lies on the side furthest away from pedants and their definitions, and nearest to the silver souls of quiet people, to the beauty of bushes, and the love of one's native place.

Thus, then in our last instance (out of hundreds that might be taken), we conclude in the same way. When the learned sceptic says: "The visions of the Old Testament were local, and rustic, and grotesque," we shall answer: "Of course. They were genuine."

Thus, as I said at the beginning, I find myself, to start with, face to face with the difficulty that to mention the reasons that I have for believing in Christianity is, in very many cases, to repeat those arguments which Mr. Blatchford, in some strange way, seems to regard as arguments against it. His book is really rich and powerful. He has undoubtedly set up these four great guns of which I have spoken. I have nothing to say against the size and ammunition of the guns. I only say that by some accident of arrangement he has set up those four pieces of artillery with the tails pointing at me and the mouths pointing at himself. If I were not so humane, I should say: "Gentlemen of the Secularist Guard, fire first."

But there is more to be said. Mr. Blatchford, for some reason or other (possibly want of space), has neglected to urge all the arguments for Christianity. And, oddly enough, the two or three arguments he has omitted to state are the really vital and essential ones. Without them, even the excellent four facts which he and I have respectively explained may apprear superficially unitelligible.

Why will many of you not accept my four explanations? Obviously, in mere logic, they are as logical as Mr. Blatchford's. It is as reasonable, in the abstract, that a truth should be distorted as that a lie should be distorted; it is as reasonable, in the abstract, that men should starve and sin for a real benefit as for an unreal one. You will not believe it because you are armed to the teeth, and buttoned up to the chin with the great Agnostic Orthodoxy, perhaps the most placid and perfect of all the orthodoxies of mean. You could sooner believe that Socrates was a Government spy than believe that he heard a voice from his God. You could more easily think that Christ murdered His mother, than that He had a psychic energy of which we know nothing. I approach you with the reverence and the courage due to a bench of bishops.
That last line is an oblique reference to the dogmatic, if not ritualistic nature, of unbelief.
"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one." Bill Hingest ("That Hideous Strength" by C.S. Lewis)

"These are the days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed except his own." G.K. Chesterton
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Post by Cybrweez »

Yea, I'm w/you fist. There are plenty of stories in Bible where someone witnessed God do something, yet never believed. Obvious one is old Nebby, who had quite a few instances of God revealing Himself to him, but he never became Jewish. It was usually, God is better than the other gods. Maybe b/c the supernatural was, more natural, back then. So that wasn't enough evidence to prove anything.

Like that old story, "If this happens, I'll believe you. Wow. Well, if this happens, then I'll really believe. Dang! Well, that's convincing, but if this happens, I'll have no reason not to believe..."

Anything could lead someone to believe in the God of the Bible. Science, experience, argument, tragedy, joy, etc.
--Andy

"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."
Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.

I believe in the One who says there is life after this.
Now tell me how much more open can my mind be?
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Hashi Lebwohl
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Fist and Faith wrote:Excellent post, Hashi.
You are too kind, thank you.
Fist and Faith wrote:Yeah, I was just curious if there was a particular thing, or moment, that made you choose what you chose. Cat Stevens' music always told me that he was searching for God. Then, he began reading the Qur'an, and was immediately drawn to it. The biggest moment was when he read the book of Joseph, and wept. "And I said, 'This is not the word of a man; this is God's words.'" Not saying anyone of any faith has such a moment. Just curious.
hrm...time to reveal personal information about myself. Not a problem.

As a child, I "grew up" going to church, the proverbial "every time the doors were open" childhood. Naturally, I wound up believing and learning quite a bit.

Then came three precipitating events, all within the space of three years. 1) my grandfather was killed by a drunk driver (the fallout from which caused the dissolution of my extended family, some of whom I have not seen in over 25 years) 2) my parents divorce (which came as a shock, since everyone had been keeping the knowledge of my father's various continuing affairs a secret from us, the kids, for a long time; some of the members of the church also shunned my mother because of this). 3) going to college (time to leave childhood and teenage behaviors behind, experience many new things, and open your eyes to the ways of the world).

The end result? I turned my back on God. But I did still read interesting things like "Myth and Ritual in Christianity" (a book written by a former Roman Catholic priest) and any Joseph Campbell book I could find at the used books stores.

What brought me back? The girl whom I loved back in high school and I got back into contact with each other via the Internet. We didn't specifically go looking for each other, mind you, but we found each other nonetheless. Her first child, from years ago, I had thought was mine...but this was not the case. Our respective marriages both dissolved within 6 months of each other and, quite naturally, we discovered that some things do not die, they just lie dormant for a while. Although I could say "the circumstances just happened to coincide despite the minute probability of such things happening" but I believe that these things happened on purpose to bring us back together.

In short, God gave me a second chance. To return the favor and to show my gratitude, I gave Him a second chance, as well.

I know...it sounds corny and hokey. *shrug* But that is my story and I am sticking to it.

Fist and Faith wrote:I think different people are different. I need evidence. There's no chance I'll ever believe anything without it. (Direct, personal experience would be evidence, btw. I couldn't demonstrate it to others, and wouldn't try. But I'd accept it for myself.) Maybe people looking for it are doing so hoping to find something for people like me?

There's a big difference between us. I've heard others say it, too. I can't imagine why anyone wants or needs to believe in something they can't prove.

Another aspect of this has been brought up a few times. Why can't I KNOW? Didn't Satan know with absolute certainty that God exists? Still, he rebelled. Knowing, I could still choose whether or not to have faith in God's plan, and mercy, and love.
You can know without such evidence but I know that you would prefer it. I won't think less of you for wanting such evidence. I wish I had physical, tangible proof beyond a reasonable doubt to share; the reality is that I simply do not.

Many people believe in things they can't prove, though; this is foundation of animism and superstition. "If I wear my lucky socks, our baseball team will win the game." Blow on the dice before you roll them for luck. The Higgs Boson exists and gives matter its intrinsic mass.

Lucifer still knows, with absolute certainty, the reality of God's existence. One cannot believe in Lucifer without also believing in God, you know. Lucifer's rebellion was simply out of pride--pride that human beings were granted a status higher than the angels.
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rusmeister
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Post by rusmeister »

Frankly, I am bowled over by Hashi's Orthodoxy (in the dual sense of being practically 100% Orthodox in his statements - something that I've NEVER seen happen before and in the sense of just plain being right). Some people can be called anonymous Orthodox. Metropolitan Kallistos (Timothy Ware) made a good case for CS Lewis being so.

Anyway, Hashi, I think you'd feel at home, if not immediately, then at least quickly if you ever came to an Orthodox church and just started speaking with the priest and parishioners...

Not that I'm holding my breath, mind you - but I've never seen the Truth taught in my Church expressed so well by a non-Orthodox member (except Lewis, I suppose). Now you'll have to fight the temptation to vanity... If it's a problem, I'll take it all back. ;)
"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one." Bill Hingest ("That Hideous Strength" by C.S. Lewis)

"These are the days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed except his own." G.K. Chesterton
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Post by I'm Murrin »

You're not getting out that easy. I read it.
Nowhere in history has there ever been any popular brightness and gaiety without religion.
Pure nonsense.
For instance, Mr. Blatchford and his school point out that there are many myths parallel to the Christian story; that there were Pagan Christs, and Red Indian Incarnations, and Patagonian Crucifixions, for all I know or care. But does not Mr. Blatchford see the other side of this fact? If the Christian God really made the human race, would not the human race tend to rumours and perversions of the Christian God? If the center of our life is a certain fact, would not people far from the center have a muddled version of that fact? If we are so made that a Son of God must deliver us, is it odd that Patagonians should dream of a Son of God?
This, at least, answers some of the question. It's an interesting thought, that the similarities between faiths are not either coincidence or duplication, but some shared knowledge. Now, that given as explanation, what is needed is 1) to show that this is in fact the case, and effectively disprove the idea that, for example, Christ's story during the roman age borrowed elements from the story of Mithras in order to aid in proselytization, or even merely through the undeliberate blurring together and miscommunication of stories between peoples, and 2) evidence that the particular faith followed is not one of these reflections.

Of course Chesterton is also presuming here that the Christ story, because there was such a person and such events occured as detailed in the bible to a certain extent, must be correct. The failing is in the inability to question whether in fact Jesus was nothing more than an ordinary man.
The Blatchfordian position really amounts to this--that because a certain thing has impressed millions of different people as likely or necessary therefore is connot be true.
I can see where you learn your logical fallacies, rus.
Take a second instance. The Secularist says that Christianity has been a gloomy and ascetic thing, and points to the procession of austere or ferocious saints who have given up home and happiness and macerated health and sex. But it never seems to occur to him that the very oddity and completeness of the men's surrender make it look very much as if there were really something actual and solid in the thing for which they sold themselves. They gave up all human experiences for the sake on one superhuman experience. They may have been wicked, but it looks as if there were such an experience.

It is perfectly tenable that this experience is as dangerous and selfish a thing as drink. A man who goes ragged and homeless in order to see visions may be as repellent and immoral as a man who goes ragged and homeless in order to drink brandy. That is a quite reasonable position. But what is manifestly not a reasonable position what would be, in fact not far from being an insane position, would be to say that the raggedness of the man, and the homelessness of the man, and the stupefied degradation of the man proved that there was no such thing as brandy.

That is precisely what the Secularist tries to say. He tries to prove that there is no such think as supernatural experience by pointing at the people who have given up everything for it. He tries to prove that there is no such thing by proving that there are people who live on nothing else.
Another fallacy. The secularist is not denying that the christian ascetic is undergoing some experience that they perceive as supernatural, only questioning the reason it gives them these experiences.


His comments on the way men can behave when gripped by some new thing they perceive as good are insightful and probably correct, I'd say. I do not think pointing out the cruelties commited in the name of religion is a valid argument for or against religion, and he's right to dispute that.

His final argument, regarding the local-ness of the early faith, is valid in its refutation of attackers who use that stance, but does not provide any reason for the genuine-ness mentioned, no evidence to take the argument from "you can't dispute my faith by arguing X" to "this affirms my faith in X having occured".


The conclusion I come to in reading the quoted piece is that Chesterton was quite eloquent and effective in deflecting the particular arguments he addressed there, but this is because they were ineffectual arguments to begin with, and none of it actually affirms the reason for lifting one possible faith above all others.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

rusmeister wrote:Anyway, Hashi, I think you'd feel at home, if not immediately, then at least quickly if you ever came to an Orthodox church and just started speaking with the priest and parishioners...
I live in the Metroplex. Finding an Orthodox church and trying to get an appointment to meet with a priest shouldn't be too terribly difficult.
rusmeister wrote:Now you'll have to fight the temptation to vanity... If it's a problem, I'll take it all back. ;)
It would have been a problem in my younger days. At its best it came across as mere elitism ("I know more than you do", which is something I actually said to someone once); at its worst it was outright arrogance ("see? I proved I know more than you do so therefore I am right" which, thankfully, I did not say but the emotions were the same).

Fortunately for me, I don't have that problem any more.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Fist and Faith wrote:Excellent post, Hashi.
You are too kind, thank you.
Fist and Faith wrote:Yeah, I was just curious if there was a particular thing, or moment, that made you choose what you chose. Cat Stevens' music always told me that he was searching for God. Then, he began reading the Qur'an, and was immediately drawn to it. The biggest moment was when he read the book of Joseph, and wept. "And I said, 'This is not the word of a man; this is God's words.'" Not saying anyone of any faith has such a moment. Just curious.
hrm...time to reveal personal information about myself. Not a problem.

As a child, I "grew up" going to church, the proverbial "every time the doors were open" childhood. Naturally, I wound up believing and learning quite a bit.

Then came three precipitating events, all within the space of three years. 1) my grandfather was killed by a drunk driver (the fallout from which caused the dissolution of my extended family, some of whom I have not seen in over 25 years) 2) my parents divorce (which came as a shock, since everyone had been keeping the knowledge of my father's various continuing affairs a secret from us, the kids, for a long time; some of the members of the church also shunned my mother because of this). 3) going to college (time to leave childhood and teenage behaviors behind, experience many new things, and open your eyes to the ways of the world).

The end result? I turned my back on God. But I did still read interesting things like "Myth and Ritual in Christianity" (a book written by a former Roman Catholic priest) and any Joseph Campbell book I could find at the used books stores.

What brought me back? The girl whom I loved back in high school and I got back into contact with each other via the Internet. We didn't specifically go looking for each other, mind you, but we found each other nonetheless. Her first child, from years ago, I had thought was mine...but this was not the case. Our respective marriages both dissolved within 6 months of each other and, quite naturally, we discovered that some things do not die, they just lie dormant for a while. Although I could say "the circumstances just happened to coincide despite the minute probability of such things happening" but I believe that these things happened on purpose to bring us back together.

In short, God gave me a second chance. To return the favor and to show my gratitude, I gave Him a second chance, as well.

I know...it sounds corny and hokey. *shrug* But that is my story and I am sticking to it.
OK. As I said, I was curious. Thanks. And nice of you to return the favor to God. Hehe.

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Fist and Faith wrote:I think different people are different. I need evidence. There's no chance I'll ever believe anything without it. (Direct, personal experience would be evidence, btw. I couldn't demonstrate it to others, and wouldn't try. But I'd accept it for myself.) Maybe people looking for it are doing so hoping to find something for people like me?

There's a big difference between us. I've heard others say it, too. I can't imagine why anyone wants or needs to believe in something they can't prove.

Another aspect of this has been brought up a few times. Why can't I KNOW? Didn't Satan know with absolute certainty that God exists? Still, he rebelled. Knowing, I could still choose whether or not to have faith in God's plan, and mercy, and love.
You can know without such evidence but I know that you would prefer it. I won't think less of you for wanting such evidence. I wish I had physical, tangible proof beyond a reasonable doubt to share; the reality is that I simply do not.

Many people believe in things they can't prove, though; this is foundation of animism and superstition. "If I wear my lucky socks, our baseball team will win the game." Blow on the dice before you roll them for luck. The Higgs Boson exists and gives matter its intrinsic mass.

Lucifer still knows, with absolute certainty, the reality of God's existence. One cannot believe in Lucifer without also believing in God, you know. Lucifer's rebellion was simply out of pride--pride that human beings were granted a status higher than the angels.
I'm glad you won't think less of me, because no, I can't know without such evidence. I've been trying to tell rus this for a very long time. You guys think that, because you are able to accept things of a certain type, everybody is. But that is not so. Among my wants, needs, fears, etc, is the need to have answers of certain types.
-Testable, reproducable evidence
-Personal experience
-Logical steps that lead to a certain, unavoidable conclusion

My psyche does not allow for what you're saying. rus can say there is every day for the rest of his life, but there is not a switch that can be thrown. I cannot choose to believe. I believe in what I know is a fact.
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Post by I'm Murrin »

Not sure how much this contributes to the discussion at hand, but I find generally I don't possess the eloquence or the knowledge to express my views on religion a fraction as well as author Hal Duncan has done in the past on his blog. He has posted a lot and at length things that amount to the deconstruction of religious belief and, for his own agenda particularly, religiously-grounded bigotry.

This in particular is the first of a five-part series of essays kicking off from Phil K Dick's spiritualism and going into a lot of the concepts that comprise the idea of God and his kingdom, and what religious institutions have made of it.

Now, the difficulty in sharing Duncan's intelligent and thorough discussions is that he does tend to be deliberately provocative, but he expresses very well the essence of the many perspectives that deny religious truth. Anyway, I don't expect anyone to actually go and read all of the things he's posted on the subject, but I thought I'd drop the link here if anyone's curious to look at what I think is a very intelligent argument from the non-believing perspective.

The below excerpted from the article is probably relevant to the current discussion, particularly the genuine-ness of religious experience as referred to in the Chesterton above.
In the end, I don't think it matters. I'm convinced that many such schizoid delusions are not meaningless invention but metaphoric articulations of the metaphysical; and even if the metaphysical is no more than the epiphenomenal domain of psyche and culture, nevertheless those articulations have a truth and relevance. Deep down, I always knew that I was thinking in metaphors, poetry rather than prophecy, and that the revelatory gifts of gods are no more to be trusted than those of the Greeks; rapture is the Trojan Horse by which the archetypes invade one's idios kosmos and open the doors to Might and Power and Glory, the monomania of religious "inspiration".
Atheists don't deny that religious experience has relevance for the person, we just argue that it is "no more than the epiphenomenal domain of psyche and culture", rather than divine inspiration.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Fist and Faith wrote:I'm glad you won't think less of me, because no, I can't know without such evidence. I've been trying to tell rus this for a very long time. You guys think that, because you are able to accept things of a certain type, everybody is. But that is not so. Among my wants, needs, fears, etc, is the need to have answers of certain types.
-Testable, reproducable evidence
-Personal experience
-Logical steps that lead to a certain, unavoidable conclusion

My psyche does not allow for what you're saying. rus can say there is every day for the rest of his life, but there is not a switch that can be thrown. I cannot choose to believe. I believe in what I know is a fact.
How serendipitous that you say this. I just so happened to buy a copy of The Seventh Seal, the film classic by Ingmar Bergman, last weekend. The main character, Antonius Blok, asks these same questions. Death is pursuing him and he wants to know what lies beyond.

Sadly, the movie doesn't fully answer his question but it does get the ball rolling for thought.

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Post by rusmeister »

Murrin wrote: You're not getting out that easy. I read it.
Nowhere in history has there ever been any popular brightness and gaiety without religion.
Pure nonsense.
Calling it nonsense is pure dismissal without basis.
Murrin wrote:
For instance, Mr. Blatchford and his school point out that there are many myths parallel to the Christian story; that there were Pagan Christs, and Red Indian Incarnations, and Patagonian Crucifixions, for all I know or care. But does not Mr. Blatchford see the other side of this fact? If the Christian God really made the human race, would not the human race tend to rumours and perversions of the Christian God? If the center of our life is a certain fact, would not people far from the center have a muddled version of that fact? If we are so made that a Son of God must deliver us, is it odd that Patagonians should dream of a Son of God?
This, at least, answers some of the question. It's an interesting thought, that the similarities between faiths are not either coincidence or duplication, but some shared knowledge. Now, that given as explanation, what is needed is 1) to show that this is in fact the case, and effectively disprove the idea that, for example, Christ's story during the roman age borrowed elements from the story of Mithras in order to aid in proselytization, or even merely through the undeliberate blurring together and misremembering of old stories, and 2) evidence that the particular faith followed is not one of these reflections.

Of course Chesterton is also presuming here that the Christ story, because there was such a person and such events occured as detailed in the bible to a certain extent, must be correct. The failing is in the inability to question whether in fact Jesus was nothing more than an ordinary man.
Gaaahh! You are FREE to question it! The apostles even did - and ran off in terror when He was crucified. No one says "You may not question". That's a mega-red herring. When you are approaching faith, questioning is normal. In Orthodoxy, the potential convert who is questioning EVERYTHING is called a catechumen. When they've gotten their answers, they decide whether to accept them or not. If they accept them, when the priest agrees, they can be baptized. The process can take days, weeks, or months. No one is forced into something they are not ready to voluntarily accept.

I think Chesterton's outline of the place of man in history and of Christ among other religions www.cse.dmu.ac.uk/~mward/gkc/books/everlasting_man.html is the best treatment of problems like the Mithras one. CS Lewis thought so, and became a Christian as a result. (Anyone who thinks CS Lewis unintelligent simply hasn't read him - a common ailment.)
Murrin wrote:
The Blatchfordian position really amounts to this--that because a certain thing has impressed millions of different people as likely or necessary therefore is connot be true.
I can see where you learn your logical fallacies, rus.
I think you're in rather a hurry to see that.
Murrin wrote:
Take a second instance. The Secularist says that Christianity has been a gloomy and ascetic thing, and points to the procession of austere or ferocious saints who have given up home and happiness and macerated health and sex. But it never seems to occur to him that the very oddity and completeness of the men's surrender make it look very much as if there were really something actual and solid in the thing for which they sold themselves. They gave up all human experiences for the sake on one superhuman experience. They may have been wicked, but it looks as if there were such an experience.

It is perfectly tenable that this experience is as dangerous and selfish a thing as drink. A man who goes ragged and homeless in order to see visions may be as repellent and immoral as a man who goes ragged and homeless in order to drink brandy. That is a quite reasonable position. But what is manifestly not a reasonable position what would be, in fact not far from being an insane position, would be to say that the raggedness of the man, and the homelessness of the man, and the stupefied degradation of the man proved that there was no such thing as brandy.

That is precisely what the Secularist tries to say. He tries to prove that there is no such think as supernatural experience by pointing at the people who have given up everything for it. He tries to prove that there is no such thing by proving that there are people who live on nothing else.
Another fallacy. The secularist is not denying that the christian ascetic is undergoing some experience that they perceive as supernatural, only questioning the reason it gives them these experiences.
The secularist has decidedly done that. That you do not may be to your credit, but it does not make Chesterton's statement that they did and do a fallacy.
Murrin wrote:His comments on the way men can behave when gripped by some new thing they perceive as good are insightful and probably correct, I'd say. I do not think pointing out the cruelties commited in the name of religion is a valid argument for or against religion, and he's right to dispute that.

His final argument, regarding the local-ness of the early faith, is valid in its refutation of attackers who use that stance, but does not provide any reason for the genuine-ness mentioned, no evidence to take the argument from "you can't dispute my faith by arguing X" to "this affirms my faith in X having occured".


The conclusion I come to in reading the quoted piece is that Chesterton was quite eloquent and effective in delfecting the particular arguments he addressed there, but this is because they were ineffectual arguments to begin with, and none of it actually affirms the reason for lifting one possible faith above all others.
The first thing we believers try to say is that we do in fact have faith - that our faith cannot be proven in a scientific manner, as such.

What apologetics aims to do is NOT to prove the faith true in that sense, but to demonstrate that it IS in fact reasonable, and that it is usually the enemies of faith - its opponents, if you prefer the term, that tend to be much more unreasonable. That it is quite compatible with reason, a thing frequently denied (esp. in HLT's posts).

The whole point is that people continue and continue to 'dispute my faith using 'x'. That is what this stuff is aimed at. You'll still be left with a leap of faith - but you'll see why it can be reasonable to make it. (Unless you make yourself unable to see it - the dwarves in CS Lewis's "The Last Battle" are an excellent illustration of this.)

But, having said all that, I do congratulate you. You are one of the very few people who I have seen take Chesterton on head-on here on the forums! I'd give you a medal for the very effort! :)
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rusmeister wrote:
Murrin wrote:
Nowhere in history has there ever been any popular brightness and gaiety without religion.
Pure nonsense.
Calling it nonsense is pure dismissal without basis.
His statement was without basis, and I dismissed it in the same manner. To state that there has never been brightness and gaiety, anywhere, without religion is the worst kind of generalisation.
Gaaahh! You are FREE to question it! The apostles even did - and ran off in terror when He was crucified. No one says "You may not question". That's a mega-red herring. When you are approaching faith, questioning is normal. In Orthodoxy, the potential convert who is questioning EVERYTHING is called a catechumen. When they've gotten their answers, they decide whether to accept them or not. If they accept them, when the priest agrees, they can be baptized. The process can take days, weeks, or months. No one is forced into something they are not ready to voluntarily accept.
You're missing the real intent of what I said there. By the inability to question that possibility I reference the same question I've been asking for a response to - why must other religions with similarities be a reflection of true Christianity, and not the other way around? What singles out your (collective pronoun, Orthodoxy's) version from others? Chesterton's answer presumes that he knows which of the many similar stories is the correct one and which are the reflections.
The secularist has decidedly done that. That you do not may be to your credit, but it does not make Chesterton's statement that they did and do a fallacy.
The fallacy lies in the reductio ad absurdum he tends towards (not all the way into absurdity, but he does tend to stretch the meaning in that direction) in most of his final responses to these four arguments. He takes the argument "other faiths have independantly produced similar myths that you do not accept as true" and reduces it to "millions of people have the same idea as you". Saying that the acts of privation some faithful put themselves through means that the object of their faith must be real ignores the question of whether what they achieve is only the satisfaction of their own psychological need.
The first thing we believers try to say is that we do in fact have faith - that our faith cannot be proven in a scientific manner, as such.

What apologetics aims to do is NOT to prove the faith true in that sense, but to demonstrate that it IS in fact reasonable, and that it is usually the enemies of faith - its opponents, if you prefer the term, that tend to be much more unreasonable. That it is quite compatible with reason, a thing frequently denied (esp. in HLT's posts).
Then this is what I have yet to see. What is it that makes your faith reasonable? What makes it more reasonable than, say, Islam?
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Murrin wrote:What is it that makes your faith reasonable?
What if he tells you his reasons but you reject them? Would that make his explanations "unreasonable"?

To whom should anyone try to make their faith reasonable? I could rephrase it thusly: reasonable...by whose standards?

Murrin wrote:What makes it more reasonable than, say, Islam?
Not only will the answer to this question be a matter of opinion only, it forces the answerer to contrast/compare religions limited by the scope of the question.
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Post by Cambo »

Just pulling out some bits and pieces, here:
Fist and Faith wrote:There's a big difference between us. I've heard others say it, too. I can't imagine why anyone wants or needs to believe in something they can't prove.
In my case, the evidence is convincing enough for me to make a leap of faith and form it into a belief system. Being purely subjective evidence, it proves nothing whatsoever, and in fact means little to anyone except me. I'm not sure if I need to believe as I do- I have believed otherwise, and don't think I suffered for it. But to not believe would be to dismiss the most powerful experiences of my life. Now, if those experiences reflect reality, then I would be denying myself direct access to truths about the universe. But whether they are true or false, I would be denying a part of myself, the part that yearns for immanence and transcendence. I don't wish to deny that part of myself. So, intellectually knowing that I could be misled by an overactive imagination, I take that leap of faith, and believe. That I want to is my reason for believing.

Couple of responses to Chesterton, though Murrin covered it quite thoroughly:

His talk of the "gaiety" of Christianity makes me think of the quote that a religious man is happier than an atheist is no more to the point than a drunk man is happier than a sober one. My beliefs make me happy as well. That doesn't make them convincing to anyone else.

The paragraphs on the numerous Son of God myths make me think of Jungian archetypes. It's true that it would be absurd to argue that the fact that star crossed lovers are ubiquitous in myth means that they never existed. Similarly, it would be ridiculous to argue that the numerous "Trickster" figures in tribal mythologies proved that there was never mischeivous or deceitful people. In fact the, Trickster archetype is evidence for the universality of deceitful, mischeivous behaviour. But it's not evidence that their actually was a spider called Anansi that tricked Elephant and Killer Whale into a tug of war match, proving Anansi to be the strongest animal in the Jungle.

I'm entirely with Chesterton on people who try to claim spiritual experiences don't happen. I have to say, though, I've never met a secularist who claims this.

Everything Chesterton says on the violence of men to preserve good things is correct. However, it can't be overlooked that men also commit violence in the name of senseless things, just as often. And that a huge amount of violence done purportedly in the name of Christianity was also- usually predominantly- for political reasons. People often aren't fighting for what they think they're fighting for.
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Post by rusmeister »

Murrin wrote:
rusmeister wrote:
Murrin wrote: Pure nonsense.
Calling it nonsense is pure dismissal without basis.
His statement was without basis, and I dismissed it in the same manner. To state that there has never been brightness and gaiety, anywhere, without religion is the worst kind of generalisation.
Gaaahh! You are FREE to question it! The apostles even did - and ran off in terror when He was crucified. No one says "You may not question". That's a mega-red herring. When you are approaching faith, questioning is normal. In Orthodoxy, the potential convert who is questioning EVERYTHING is called a catechumen. When they've gotten their answers, they decide whether to accept them or not. If they accept them, when the priest agrees, they can be baptized. The process can take days, weeks, or months. No one is forced into something they are not ready to voluntarily accept.
You're missing the real intent of what I said there. By the inability to question that possibility I reference the same question I've been asking for a response to - why must other religions with similarities be a reflection of true Christianity, and not the other way around? What singles out your (collective pronoun, Orthodoxy's) version from others? Chesterton's answer presumes that he knows which of the many similar stories is the correct one and which are the reflections.
Thanks, Murrin. I'll take the first two comments together. I'd say, having studied him for 5 years (although less in the last year), I'll say that you just don't know his basis.
On the second, the answer to your good question is found in the book I linked to. He takes the major historical facts - the most important ones - and draws a picture and conclusions. My own experience when reading it was like a connect-the-dots picture. I KNEW many of the facts that he referred to; I had been TAUGHT some of them in school - but they were taught as disconnected facts. The Punic Wars - the particular way Rome treated Carthage as distinct from all other nations and empires that it conquered - made no sense, for the school histories offered no explanation (my familiarity with school texts is particularly fresh because I had to teach from them - standard, district-approved texts that make a ton of money for publishers in cozy relations with the districts - but I digress...). But when GKC said, "Look at this fact" and "Look at that fact" it was like a thunderclap. He demonstrated how the very best of paganism defeated the worst of paganism and why they wouldn't even absorb them into the Empire like they did everyone else. And that's just one small part of the book - but for me personally, it rocked my previous hazy conceptions and drew a straight line that made the vague mumbling of economic factors in the school texts out to be simple nonsense. There are plenty of other cases - you might be surprised yourself by some of them. I think the reaction of a person to a book like that - which draws a definite conclusion will be hostile, if they are set in hostility from the very beginning to the conclusion - as has happened here. But a person who is NOT hostile and is truly open-minded will, agree or disagree, at least be forced to think more seriously and deeply than they ever have. If the picture drawn is correct - even on major particulars, then one can see a serious case (again, even if they do not ultimately accept the conclusion) for Christ being the true original, of which predecessors were reflections and following ones pale copies.

Murrin wrote:
The secularist has decidedly done that. That you do not may be to your credit, but it does not make Chesterton's statement that they did and do a fallacy.
The fallacy lies in the reductio ad absurdum he tends towards (not all the way into absurdity, but he does tend to stretch the meaning in that direction) in most of his final responses to these four arguments. He takes the argument "other faiths have independantly produced similar myths that you do not accept as true" and reduces it to "millions of people have the same idea as you". Saying that the acts of privation some faithful put themselves through means that the object of their faith must be real ignores the question of whether what they achieve is only the satisfaction of their own psychological need.

Murrin wrote:
The first thing we believers try to say is that we do in fact have faith - that our faith cannot be proven in a scientific manner, as such.

What apologetics aims to do is NOT to prove the faith true in that sense, but to demonstrate that it IS in fact reasonable, and that it is usually the enemies of faith - its opponents, if you prefer the term, that tend to be much more unreasonable. That it is quite compatible with reason, a thing frequently denied (esp. in HLT's posts).
Then this is what I have yet to see. What is it that makes your faith reasonable? What makes it more reasonable than, say, Islam?
I suggest reading "The Everlasting Man". If you are not hostile to it from the get-go, you might see why - if you seriously want an answer to your question. I recommend it rather than the Gospels, although actually reading a Gospel may be the very best thing - if one were to think deeply about the implications of what is said and juxtaposition the many facets of Christ. But Chesterton in general knows that a majority of his readers are unbelievers - he was a journalist, a major and nationally-known figure in his time - so his writings are modern and do not assume that you are a believer, although he is very specific about what he defends. I don't even fully agree with him on everything. I'm Orthodox, after all, and he was an Anglican-cum-Catholic. But he was mostly right about most things. His ability to strike at the heart of matters dwarfs the complaints about occasional factual inaccuracy - the people who complain the most loudly about the latter are those who hate what he has to say. But mostly they don't know, because they haven't read. Not Chesterton, not Lewis, not the Gospels (not really, as thinking adults, carefully considering how Christ could speak so pacifically yet so militantly, or how He could identify Himself as the one responsible for Creation and the prophets - to a people who could not possibly mistake his meaning, and so left Him, when His sayings became hard, and rent their clothes when they heard Him call Himself by the sacred name of God. So people are tired of hearing what they have never heard, and have opinions about things they have seen only in a limited framework of space and time - usually the US or England of the late twentieth/early 21st century, and so the other centuries, places and times largely escape them. So yeah, I recommend TEM, if you want an understanding of the best of Christian claims. But again, a pre-conceived hostility makes it pointless, for the verdict has been determined beforehand.

(Edit) on your last point, on reducing to tha absurd, he doesn't do what you accuse him of doing. When speaking to Blatchford, he was speaking specifically to the agnostic embracing of all faiths while despising them all, and not at all of the millions of sincere believers in those faiths. As to ascetics, the question of "psychological need" is the question of whether there is truth at all, whether a thing can really be true - the questions are one and the same. And he DOES address that directly. he does point out that the possibility that they embraced a real thing is at least as logical (and implies that it is MORE logical) than in the idea that they embraced an unreal thing.

I personally will henceforth ignore all talk of "psychological need" because it is evident to me that it is used to avoid the question of whether a thing is true. The ancient philosophers asked the latter question. They did NOT ask the former question. In that, they are solidly on my side, and it is the "psychological needers" who have abandoned and lost true philosophy. I'm only interested in whether a thing is true. If you are not interested in truth, then I don't want to have discussions with you. It's quite simple. If a thing is TRUE, then it doesn't matter whether it is "psychologically desirable" or not. The militant atheist agrees with this every time he insists that the uncomfortable truth is better than a comforting lie. Why then will you evade my question of truth when I agree with the militant atheist? (I have explained why I will evade talk of "psychological need", so need not further defend it. I'd like to see similar explanations from the "needers" as to why they evade my question of truth.)
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Post by rusmeister »

Cambo wrote:Just pulling out some bits and pieces, here:
Fist and Faith wrote:There's a big difference between us. I've heard others say it, too. I can't imagine why anyone wants or needs to believe in something they can't prove.
In my case, the evidence is convincing enough for me to make a leap of faith and form it into a belief system. Being purely subjective evidence, it proves nothing whatsoever, and in fact means little to anyone except me. I'm not sure if I need to believe as I do- I have believed otherwise, and don't think I suffered for it. But to not believe would be to dismiss the most powerful experiences of my life. Now, if those experiences reflect reality, then I would be denying myself direct access to truths about the universe. But whether they are true or false, I would be denying a part of myself, the part that yearns for immanence and transcendence. I don't wish to deny that part of myself. So, intellectually knowing that I could be misled by an overactive imagination, I take that leap of faith, and believe. That I want to is my reason for believing.

Couple of responses to Chesterton, though Murrin covered it quite thoroughly:

His talk of the "gaiety" of Christianity makes me think of the quote that a religious man is happier than an atheist is no more to the point than a drunk man is happier than a sober one. My beliefs make me happy as well. That doesn't make them convincing to anyone else.

The paragraphs on the numerous Son of God myths make me think of Jungian archetypes. It's true that it would be absurd to argue that the fact that star crossed lovers are ubiquitous in myth means that they never existed. Similarly, it would be ridiculous to argue that the numerous "Trickster" figures in tribal mythologies proved that there was never mischeivous or deceitful people. In fact the, Trickster archetype is evidence for the universality of deceitful, mischeivous behaviour. But it's not evidence that their actually was a spider called Anansi that tricked Elephant and Killer Whale into a tug of war match, proving Anansi to be the strongest animal in the Jungle.

I'm entirely with Chesterton on people who try to claim spiritual experiences don't happen. I have to say, though, I've never met a secularist who claims this.

Everything Chesterton says on the violence of men to preserve good things is correct. However, it can't be overlooked that men also commit violence in the name of senseless things, just as often. And that a huge amount of violence done purportedly in the name of Christianity was also- usually predominantly- for political reasons. People often aren't fighting for what they think they're fighting for.
On what GKC was talking about: He didn't say "happiness" He said "gaiety". This is a different thing, and not a reference to personal "happiness", whatever that is, but to a thing that can be seen - joyous behavior. That demonstrates what I have said before about how easy it is to misunderstand others and the subsequent need for precision in speech.

I certainly do meet people who deny the spiritual world, and if you start defending a specific form of spirituality as true, you'll find them here. (As long as you don't challenge their beliefs, they won't care.) You should meet HLT sometime.

On the point of faith and violence, we all know the charges against Christianity to tears. The point was this:
For men commit crimes not only for bad things, far more often for good things. For no bad things can be desired quite so passionately and persistently as good things can be desired and only very exceptional men desire very bad and unnatural things.
To sum it up, there are very old and very stale charges against the Christian faith, which are revealed to be quite shallow when seriously examined. If only these things could be thrown out of court, we could start from a platform of greater respect. Maybe YOU don't claim those things. Good and well. But people here DO claim those things, and if you can see that they continue to do so in spite of evidence to the contrary, you might acknowledge the existence of an unreasoning hatred of Christ and Christianity.
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Post by Cambo »

rusmeister wrote:On what GKC was talking about: He didn't say "happiness" He said "gaiety". This is a different thing, and not a reference to personal "happiness", whatever that is, but to a thing that can be seen - joyous behavior. That demonstrates what I have said before about how easy it is to misunderstand others and the subsequent need for precision in speech.
Substitute "gaiety" and my quip still applies. Happy drunks generally are much more demonstrably joyous than even happy sober people- doesn't mean it's more desirable to be constantly drunk.
rusmeister wrote:To sum it up, there are very old and very stale charges against the Christian faith, which are revealed to be quite shallow when seriously examined. If only these things could be thrown out of court, we could start from a platform of greater respect. Maybe YOU don't claim those things. Good and well. But people here DO claim those things, and if you can see that they continue to do so in spite of evidence to the contrary, you might acknowledge the existence of an unreasoning hatred of Christ and Christianity.
Oh, I don't deny there exists an unreasoning hatred of Christ and Christianity- I've blogged on atheist forums :lol: . I've held that hatred in my heart, once when I was younger. There are some who hold the same hatred against all spiritual or religious believers, which while not wise, is at least more consistent. Those people are in error, but I challenge them on it only when I have the energy. Their wall is built of different bricks than the religious dogmatist, but it is just as hard on my head :hithead:

But some of the old criticisms of Christianity are perfectly valid. They are old and stale only because the Church has been doing horrendous things for such a long time. No need to throw these out with the bathwater.

I'm not sure I agree with Chesterton that people commit crimes more often for good things than bad things. The most dangerous city in the world at the moment is on the Mexican/USA border, and it's the most dangerous because of the illegal heroin trade. When it comes to large scale wars, revolutions, and the like, I think the people doing the killing and dying are usually doing it for reasons not their own. The young soldier may think he is going into battle for defense God and country, but usually he is about to die so some powerful person or organisation can obtain yet more power. The Church, over the centuries has been one of the organisations vying for power, either of its own or through the State. I don't think that's an unreasonable or hate-filled statement; no institution of power exists that doesn't have blood on its hands. But that doesn't make them a good cause.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:Lucifer's rebellion was simply out of pride--pride that human beings were granted a status higher than the angels.[/color]
BTW, what's this about? In what way were human beings granted higher status than the angels?

And, obviously, this means Lucifer's rebellion came after humans were created. So the serpent in Eden was not Lucifer? ali and I were discussing the timing.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Fist and Faith wrote: BTW, what's this about? In what way were human beings granted higher status than the angels?

And, obviously, this means Lucifer's rebellion came after humans were created. So the serpent in Eden was not Lucifer? ali and I were discussing the timing.
The angels existed, to the best of my presumptions, in the eternity before the physical world was created. God then decided to create a special new place--the physical universe--specifically as a home for human beings. This means that he went out of His way to give us a unique home. As beings of flesh and spirit, we have a "higher" status than angels who are only spirit.

So...Lucifer's rebellion happened after humans are created and he convinced approximately one-third of the angels to go with him. That had to be a pretty convincing argument to get so many to leave Heaven on purpose...but I digress. Now that he has been cast out, the only place he can live is the physical universe so he approaches the human couple and manages to convince them to disobey God like he did.

I would have to look up the original Hebrew word. Most translations typically say "serpent" or some variant thereof but I suspect the original word has some other meaning that might shed new light on what happened.

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Post by Fist and Faith »

Interesting. Is that the generally accepted version? I'm not arguing remotely, just wondering.

I'm also thinking that flesh could be considered a weakness. But I guess, sort of as Bill Murray said in Groundhog Day, any change is good. So humans were experiencing something the spirit-only angels couldn't.
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Post by rusmeister »

Cambo wrote:
rusmeister wrote:On what GKC was talking about: He didn't say "happiness" He said "gaiety". This is a different thing, and not a reference to personal "happiness", whatever that is, but to a thing that can be seen - joyous behavior. That demonstrates what I have said before about how easy it is to misunderstand others and the subsequent need for precision in speech.
Substitute "gaiety" and my quip still applies. Happy drunks generally are much more demonstrably joyous than even happy sober people- doesn't mean it's more desirable to be constantly drunk.
Ok, this is what I got from Merriam-Webster:
Definition of GAIETY
1
: merrymaking; also : festive activity —often used in plural
2
: high spirits : merriment
3
: elegance, finery
Definition of HAPPINESS
obsolete : good fortune : prosperity
2
a : a state of well-being and contentment : joy b : a pleasurable or satisfying experience
They are NOT the same thing, although the one may give rise to the other.
But I think that his statement can still be shown to be broadly true - even if you DID find an exception - which I seriously doubt. The burden of proof would be on you to produce an atheist society of the past (a rather difficult assignment, since belief in the supernatural is common to all human history; the true atheists are few and far between, and atheist societies non-existent as far as I know, and then you'd also have to show some evidence of genuine merriment on their part. An impossible task, in my estimation. They may have believed in Jupiter and Juno, or Odin and Thor (a depressing worldview) but they surely believed in something. The Saturnalia was loosely connected with someone called "Saturn" - and so on.
Cambo wrote:
rusmeister wrote:To sum it up, there are very old and very stale charges against the Christian faith, which are revealed to be quite shallow when seriously examined. If only these things could be thrown out of court, we could start from a platform of greater respect. Maybe YOU don't claim those things. Good and well. But people here DO claim those things, and if you can see that they continue to do so in spite of evidence to the contrary, you might acknowledge the existence of an unreasoning hatred of Christ and Christianity.
Oh, I don't deny there exists an unreasoning hatred of Christ and Christianity- I've blogged on atheist forums :lol: . I've held that hatred in my heart, once when I was younger. There are some who hold the same hatred against all spiritual or religious believers, which while not wise, is at least more consistent. Those people are in error, but I challenge them on it only when I have the energy. Their wall is built of different bricks than the religious dogmatist, but it is just as hard on my head :hithead:

But some of the old criticisms of Christianity are perfectly valid. They are old and stale only because the Church has been doing horrendous things for such a long time. No need to throw these out with the bathwater.

I'm not sure I agree with Chesterton that people commit crimes more often for good things than bad things. The most dangerous city in the world at the moment is on the Mexican/USA border, and it's the most dangerous because of the illegal heroin trade. When it comes to large scale wars, revolutions, and the like, I think the people doing the killing and dying are usually doing it for reasons not their own. The young soldier may think he is going into battle for defense God and country, but usually he is about to die so some powerful person or organisation can obtain yet more power. The Church, over the centuries has been one of the organisations vying for power, either of its own or through the State. I don't think that's an unreasonable or hate-filled statement; no institution of power exists that doesn't have blood on its hands. But that doesn't make them a good cause.
Yes, dogma is a rather hard thing! :)

But when you speak of "criticisms of Christianity", you need to be clear on what exactly those are. Then you have the problem of "what Church", as most criticisms in the West are specifically of Western Christian faiths, usually the Roman Catholic Church, which are inapplicable to any faith disconnected from them. Also, it seems that the most common criticisms are of actions - of human sin - something Christian doctrine in general (at least until the 20th century) predicts. So saying, "Look at those sinners in that church!" will shock no intelligent Christian. They KNOW that "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." With systemic sins, I think there is a better basis for criticism, when it can be shown that the system, not the individual, was responsible. So I'd join in on criticism of common complaints against the RCC, whereas obviously, intelligent Catholics defend them or try to show them as non-systemic. Historically, there was no such thing as "Christianity" until the so-called "reformation". There was a specific Church in the West, and a specific Church in the East (and before the Schism, officially dated 1054, they were united, although the schism was a process that began long before that and wasn't completed until more than a century after that date). Curiously, the Western Church pursued a policy of pretty much total silence on the existence of the Eastern Church, as far as the masses were concerned (pun not intended) :P , whereas the masses in the East were aware of the Catholic Church in the West. Thus, Catholic material on the Eastern Church is quite sparse until the middle of the twentieth century, although certainly there was sporadic contact at top levels throughout the second millennium.
So you'd have to unpack "valid criticism" before I could agree with you on anything, and if it's N/A to the Orthodox Church then it's not valid to me at all, since in my view, all of western Christianity went off the tracks even before the Schism, resulting in the nutty situation you see today. The Roman Church went wrong, and then the protestors went more wrong, with an infinite secession/split-off process developing as a result. Point is, I'll throw out most criticsms, leaving a much smaller number of intelligent concerns to deal with. (And once they are dealt with, those criticisms cease to be "valid" as well.)

On what I think GKC meant, he does mean something sensible, but it'll take me too much time now, and I'm now at a point of posting this or nothing at all. Trying to encapsulate or summarize GK Chesterton is like trying to shove a genie into a bottle, or a camel through the eye of a needle., because he really was a genius in the commonly accepted understanding of the word - some just haven't realized that yet (a man who can dictate a book off the top of his head on Thomas Aquinas which blows away all of the Thomist scholars is nothing less (and if you question that, take a look at the size of Aquinas "Summa Theologica" sometime. It takes 45 MB of TEXT in MS Word - and b) he speaks about everything and in so many ways. I tell you I've been studying his works since '05, and I am still frequently floored by the depth of his thinking. While this is decidedly the internet site with the most intellectual contigent of members (something that I have always enjoyed here) no one here displays such a depth of thought. But who on earth here would claim to be a bona fide genius? Not me, that's for sure. Good god, the man regularly throws, off-handedly and without effort, references to figures, events or literature of the 8th, 13th or 18th centuries that has me running to wikipedia to try to keep up! And he didn't have any bloody wikipedia!!!

(Plus I've had some beer, my favorite form of bread, so need to be shutting down...)
"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one." Bill Hingest ("That Hideous Strength" by C.S. Lewis)

"These are the days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed except his own." G.K. Chesterton
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