the land compared to our world

[peter]

*jumps back in feet first*

Must one of you be reduced? Must the atheist be spiritually shallow or the believer deluded?

I think it's more likely that whatever answers an individual gains to these questions of ultimate meaning are his and his alone. They are the solutions to the dilemma of his existence that allow him to fulfil his life in the best, sometimes the only, way possible for him.

In the first trilogy, Covenant's Unbelief was absolutely necessary to him. It was a cornerstone of his identity. If he let go of it, he would have lost much of himself. And it enabled him to save the Land. Covenant's Eye of the Paradox required both Unbelief and love in order to create the opening to wild magic. Unbelief was essential not only to the meaning of his life, but to his redemption.

I am no longer an atheist, but I was for a long time. That was my most meaningful answer at that point in my life. I could have been otherwise, but it would not have been beneficial to me as a person. Only after I went through some other essential changes did I develop my personal spiritual beliefs. Similarly, I could not now embrace Christianity. That framework simply doesn't function for me. But am I lesser for it? Absolutely not.

No Cambo - I don't believe this has to be (or even necessarily is) so, but because we are human the likelyhood is that the Idealist will always view the Materialist position as the lesser and visa versa. One always tends to think that what is 'doing it' for one at any given time is the most rational position to take (indeed it is so for the very reason that it is 'doing it' for one - who would by choice tale a position that did not work for them?). At that point we even look back on our own earlier viewpionts as being misguided. Do you not regard your own current beliefs as an advancement on your previous atheism (I know I do) - surely you don't regard them as just 'another day, another dollar; this suit fits me today so I'll wear it. You must surely feel there to be some advancement in your position as you progress through life.

Regarding TC - his disbelief is contained within the Land, and yes, indeed, serves it's purpose there as you describe. But do we know anything of his beliefs, be they materealistic or idealistic, in his 'real world'. I may be wrong but I think not; and given his ready acceptance of the old beggar as Creator can we not surmise that he was at least in principle open to non-materealist views.

The strong Materealist (not sure there is such a thing, but I hope you know what I mean) would probably read your post and say that your new-found spirituality is but a side effect of the other 'essential changes' you have undergone; I do not - I say that the likelyhood is that the events of your life are leading you toward a deeper understanding of what it is to exist - and why.

[Spirit of the Knight]

Our world has just as much beauty as the Land's. If humans could only cultivate their inner powers they would see as TC "sees" in The Land. I believe this ability was a common thing thousands of years ago in ancient tribes and such. Sadly, the age of industry and high tech has obliterated this natural gift.

[peter]

Had to pull this one back to the top of the list guy's in the hope that Barnetto and Cambo will reply to my (quite brilliant) last two posts - It was in danger of dissapearing for good from the home page. Apologies - I know it was bad and I promise I won't do it again! ( ).

[Cambo]

*jumps back in feet first*

Must one of you be reduced? Must the atheist be spiritually shallow or the believer deluded?

I think it's more likely that whatever answers an individual gains to these questions of ultimate meaning are his and his alone. They are the solutions to the dilemma of his existence that allow him to fulfil his life in the best, sometimes the only, way possible for him.

In the first trilogy, Covenant's Unbelief was absolutely necessary to him. It was a cornerstone of his identity. If he let go of it, he would have lost much of himself. And it enabled him to save the Land. Covenant's Eye of the Paradox required both Unbelief and love in order to create the opening to wild magic. Unbelief was essential not only to the meaning of his life, but to his redemption.

I am no longer an atheist, but I was for a long time. That was my most meaningful answer at that point in my life. I could have been otherwise, but it would not have been beneficial to me as a person. Only after I went through some other essential changes did I develop my personal spiritual beliefs. Similarly, I could not now embrace Christianity. That framework simply doesn't function for me. But am I lesser for it? Absolutely not.

No Cambo - I don't believe this has to be (or even necessarily is) so, but because we are human the likelyhood is that the Idealist will always view the Materialist position as the lesser and visa versa. One always tends to think that what is 'doing it' for one at any given time is the most rational position to take (indeed it is so for the very reason that it is 'doing it' for one - who would by choice tale a position that did not work for them?). At that point we even look back on our own earlier viewpionts as being misguided. Do you not regard your own current beliefs as an advancement on your previous atheism (I know I do) - surely you don't regard them as just 'another day, another dollar; this suit fits me today so I'll wear it. You must surely feel there to be some advancement in your position as you progress through life.

Regarding TC - his disbelief is contained within the Land, and yes, indeed, serves it's purpose there as you describe. But do we know anything of his beliefs, be they materealistic or idealistic, in his 'real world'. I may be wrong but I think not; and given his ready acceptance of the old beggar as Creator can we not surmise that he was at least in principle open to non-materealist views.

The strong Materealist (not sure there is such a thing, but I hope you know what I mean) would probably read your post and say that your new-found spirituality is but a side effect of the other 'essential changes' you have undergone; I do not - I say that the likelyhood is that the events of your life are leading you toward a deeper understanding of what it is to exist - and why.

Sorry Peter, haven't checked here in a while.

I agree it's generally the way of things that people look down on other people who hold ideologically opposite viewpoints. I even happen to think that some viewpoints deserve to be looked down on- but those are a tiny minority and not necessarily the opposite views to my own.

"Misguided" is not a very strong word, yet it's still probably too strong for how I view my atheism. If I were to meet my younger self, I wouldn't agree with much of what he had to say. Yet, I think atheism was absolutely the right and proper belief system for me at the time. It was not an enjoyable time, and I do not look back on it fondly, but I think atheism was necessary for me. Then again, I certainly feel there has been advancement in my life. Whether that advancement is causally due to abandoning atheism, I'd hesitate to say. If I were just as happy and peaceful, with all the advances in wisdom, etc, as I am now, yet remained an atheist, would you say that I had not advanced as far? I certainly know people just as happy and intelligent as I am who are atheists, I'd never claim to be "more advanced" than they were.

Interesting point about TC's views as to our world. I'd never really thought of that. I'll have to ponder. I will say that it was hardly a leap of faith for Covenant to accept the old man as the Creator. He had some pretty good evidence. The old man was the harbinger of his first transmission. The myths of the Land place the Creator outside his creation, opening the possiblity he may reside in our world. And he recognised the disembodied voice as he left the Land in TPTP as the old man in the ochre robe. That's not a faith based judgement, whereas there is at least an element of faith in any belief system that encompasses spirituality.

As to me appraoching a deeper understanding of existence...we can only hope. One thing I don't hope for is ever reaching a point where I believe I have all the answers I require.

[Barnetto]

Barnetto, Hmmmmm.

We sit in a magic room together viewing all of creation in it's entirety. We are both reduced to tears - profoundly affected is too small a phrase, no we are quite literally blown away by the staggering, indescribable wonder of THE CREATION in the purity, beauty and not least impossibility of it's existence. This for you is just quite the 'The Greatest Show On Earth' there is nothing, can be nothing, will never be anything better.
For me it is almost exactly the same (hell, I'm in tears too!), exept ther is one small difference (or big one depending on your perspective). For me there is a reason I am there in that room. I am the second hand without which the one hand does not clap. I am the ear without which the falling tree in the forrest makes no sound. I am the 'Joy' that 'is in the ears that hear'. I am the eyes through which THE CREATION see's itself, the ears through which it hears itself. This is my purpouse. This is the reason for my being here. Without me THE CREATION cannot know itself. Should I not feel humbled by this role, this responsibility, and should I not try to pass on the knowledge of it to all, to any who will listen.

Barnetto, if this is my arrogance then I own to it. Is my view better than yours, I don't know. To you I am deluded by my clinging to something more than the physical world gives us - and thus perhaps I am reduced. But I cannot (willnot?) have it so. There must.... there must.....be a purpose.

Qed

Apologies Peter, I see you have been waiting to lock horns! I've been concentrating on the AATE pages in the meantime....

I have no issue whatsoever with your need to see a purpose - it is your need, not mine - if attributing a purpose to your (humanity's - any form of sentient alien life?) existence is important to you, that is fine in my book - provided you don't feel obliged to proseltyse in the nature of organised religions. That is not arrogance, it is simply need.

What is (arguably) arrogance is to assume that, because I don't have the same need, my experiences are thereby necessarily denuded. The universe is an amazing cosmic show and how lucky are we to be here at this time to see and experience it. (In fact, solely from my view, any suggestion of a purpose that arises from the outside would reduce the grandeur of this view - its accidental nature is, to me, all the more amazing and to discover that it is (and I am) all the work of some larger consciousness would take away from it).

But more generally. I regard myself as a rationalist - from my perspective a belief in God (of whatever type) would be simply a leap of faith that I am both unable to take and would leave me leaving profoundly disturbed. I do not seek an "answer" (as far as I'm aware, though you may well argue that rationalism is my answer) and I am simply not open to the acceptance of such a fundamentally ideology without a foundation of evidence and rational argument - call that a lack on my part if you so wish, a lack of spirituality (though I would disagree), but do not assume that my subjective appreciation of the world around is the lesser (it may well be different, but not necessarily lesser).

If pushed I would tentatively suggest that the rationalist view is the better one, of course. It fits better with what we know about the world - though clearly it doesn't necessarily fit better with how a lot of people feel about the world. But in any event, I doubt that science will ever have such a perfect understanding of the world to entirely exclude all aspects of religion - God may have become the God of the gaps, but those gaps are likely to endure for a time yet! Proving a negative is, as we all know, rather difficult...

But nevertheless, I would not suggest that giving up your worldview and adopting a "better" one, would enhance your appreciation of what is beautiful and magical about existence.

Apologies if you were seeking more of a confrontation? As well as a rationalist, I'm also highly non-confrontational... but if you are still feeling confrontational, head back to the AATE pages....

And for the sake of the Moderators, to bring this briefly back to TC, I would argue that his acceptance of the Creator as that was based on evidence - ignoring his unbelief - how else was he supposed to rationalise the appearance of the Begger and his prophecies (well, obviously through his unbelief, but we're ignoring that...) - Cambo has already made this point better than I.

[peter]

Barnetto, Cambo, Touche my friends (don't know how to do the comma bit over the e but I expect you know what I mean!).

Confrontational me - perish the thought. re the AATE forums been there done that. Wow - now that is a battle royale! Have you seen the 'How Bad Is It' one - thats a vicious thread and a half!

Thanks for the replys guys.

[Cambo]

Still doesn't trump the Tank for sheer bloody-mindedness.

[jonnyredleader]

Ok here's my take. I think the act of creation/accident is missing the point as knight earlier posted.
The people of the land don't believe or hold responsible a creator, they love the land for what it is, they take responsibility themselves for their love of it to protect and nurture it.
It's the people of the land and their values that make it a more preferable place to live. Capitalism, industrialisation, tyranny and materialism are what grey our reality. We live our lives being told what's important and what is beautiful without opening our eyes and seeing for ourselves. Our world is as beautiful as the land, I flew over the albuqurque mountains yesterday and was blown away by their beauty.
The land is in covenants head as it is in ours, I'm sure we all have our andelains, the lush green forests in England are my andelain, have you ever seen the rolling hills of the Weald of Kent or the lake district? just as NM is the land for lord zombie.
Just have to open your eyes and see what's really beautiful and important in life and you'll find the black and White

[Barnetto]

Ok here's my take. I think the act of creation/accident is missing the point as knight earlier posted.
The people of the land don't believe or hold responsible a creator, they love the land for what it is, they take responsibility themselves for their love of it to protect and nurture it.
It's the people of the land and their values that make it a more preferable place to live. Capitalism, industrialisation, tyranny and materialism are what grey our reality. We live our lives being told what's important and what is beautiful without opening our eyes and seeing for ourselves. Our world is as beautiful as the land, I flew over the albuqurque mountains yesterday and was blown away by their beauty.
The land is in covenants head as it is in ours, I'm sure we all have our andelains, the lush green forests in England are my andelain, have you ever seen the rolling hills of the Weald of Kent or the lake district? just as NM is the land for lord zombie.
Just have to open your eyes and see what's really beautiful and important in life and you'll find the black and White

What is quite interesting of course is that historically mountains and forests have been viewed by mankind as almost an environmental enemy - you only have to think of traditional fairy tales. It was only with the romantic movement around the 17/18th centuries that the idea of the unspoiled parts of the land being beautiful and uplifting came about. This appears to have been a natural reaction to cities and towns growing and increasing in squalor - it probably also helped that the forests and mountains were no longer overrun by bears/wolves etc....

One of the main differences between the Land and our world, of course, is that the Land isn't overrun by people (or other sentients) - the south of England is particularly densely populated in a way that the Land certainly isn't - indeed the Land is curiously underpopulated it seems (though it had had only a thousand years to recover from Kevin's desecration at the start).

I can't help feeling that this would make a huge difference. It means that we view the greensward romantically as a antidote to the grey squalor of City living, in a way that the folk of the Land would not. They would surely still fear the forests and mountains (Garroting Deep, kresh etc) and, living pastorally, would look towards the odd City (Revelstone) as a place of sanctuary and security. At least, that would be the case unless you throw into the equation that which we lack, the vital element of healthsense.

So, whilst I too am susceptible to the viewpoint that there is as much beauty here if you look for it as there is in the Land (in my romantic moments), I think that a more hard-headed look at the situation indicates there is more to it than that and the deep healthsense of the people of the Land is what inures them to the fate of us poor humans - that and their relatively low rates of procreation....

[Cambo]

Yes, the healthsense is really crucial to the society of the Land.

Also, it must have some major societal effects that the Land since Kevin hasn't gone more than a couple of thousand years without some major apocalyptic event- the Desecration, the Illeart War and Foul's imposed winter, then the Sunbane. Basically the culture starts from scratch over and over again.

[jonnyredleader]

I'm with you on the health sense, I'm sure that has something to do with it especially sickness, hurtloam and drawing power drom the elements, but I disagree that love of the natural world is a recent thing.
In the past you had culture that worshipped the natural world like the Druids and tried to live in harmony because they knew how much they depended on it and how important it was to have a symbiotic relationship.
With industrialisation and cities etc we have disconnected and now live completely out of balance, we know we consume resources at an unsustainable rate and yet we don't feel part of the problem.
The natives living in parts of the world today have better societies, Facebook email and starbucks don't compare. Mountains and forests were also loved and worshipped as sentient things in past cultures.

[Barnetto]

Yes, I certainly agree with you regarding the disconnect with nature and the dangers of it. I just think it's a bit easy to romanticise the relationship of early societies with nature. They were much more part of nature, true, but equally they had no choice and it presented very real dangers as well as opportunities to them.

Even shamanism and animalism appear to have been largely based around hunting and killing animals and somehow appeasing nature for that brutality.

[jonnyredleader]

Yeah I'm happy to concede to romanticism, don't get me wrong I think technology has done some wonderful things, I like the conveniences of living in the modern world.
The people of the land are what made me want to live there, sure the beauty of the place was described but it was mhoram, Elena, Lena, saltheart etc and their passion and compassion for the people around them, their homeland that made it a better place for me. That's why I always prefered the first chronicles, felt like people and a place I'd want to be. Troy and covenant both are swayed to the beauty by the people. I'm the same way Srd planted the seed in me to notice these things and appreciate values like those of mhoram.
They land seems to be in an Eden state, having what they need and living in harmony with that. I wouldn't require an iPad if I lived there. It's not quite living without technology there, they have agriculture but it seems to be tempered with living in harmony and taking personal responsibilty in that

[Vraith]

I think I've gone into this before somewhere, so I'll stay brief.
It is closely tied to healthsense in a number of obvious and subtle ways, but comes down to a couple broad general things of their existence:
The people have two things, inherent in their natures, that we ordinary humans don't.
Both aesthetics and morals [good/evil] are "senses," much like our physical senses...they are perceived and meaningful directly, unmediated or translated or interpreted: we do not have to learn to see or smell or touch, but we do have to learn most of beauty and ugliness, and most of good and evil...and they do not. The good, the evil, the beautiful, the warped, are literally present. Trees scream their inner essences at them...not so for most of us.
The ineffable is special and rare for most of us...for them it is the ground and air they live in.

[jonnyredleader]

I think there is something in that but I'm not wholly convinced...yet lol
The people of the land were not always as they were in the time of the lords, their ancestors much like our own cut and hacked down the one forest, only berek having communed with the earthpower began the lands protection and nurture. It was his legacy not inherent to the people, he was shown a way to harness and started the culture. They quickly forgot the lands beauty under the clave

[Vraith]

I think there is something in that but I'm not wholly convinced...yet lol
The people of the land were not always as they were in the time of the lords, their ancestors much like our own cut and hacked down the one forest, only berek having communed with the earthpower began the lands protection and nurture. It was his legacy not inherent to the people, he was shown a way to harness and started the culture. They quickly forgot the lands beauty under the clave

I don't recall for certain if it is said about prior to Berek, but it is implied...and for the periods after, like the Clave-times it is definitely so...the people of the Land are blinded/blocked, which is different from forgetting.
And I suspect there is an evolution that goes on...if you live in snow, you eventually become white, if you live in the Land which is so enlivened, you grow to see.

[amanibhavam]

Our world has just as much beauty as the Land's. If humans could only cultivate their inner powers they would see as TC "sees" in The Land. I believe this ability was a common thing thousands of years ago in ancient tribes and such. Sadly, the age of industry and high tech has obliterated this natural gift.

Ah, the age-old topos 'everything was so much better XXX years ago, when men were men and beauty was beauty'. There is as much beauty in the present as it was in the past, a bit different maybe, but beauty nevertheless. The inner powers are there.

To all, I really-really recommend watching this series: www.amazon.co.uk/Wonders-Universe-DVD-B ... 468&sr=8-1

One of the most poignant science TV shows I've ever seen; it summarizes what's beautiful in our fragile existence so well.

Sorry for the OFF.

[jonnyredleader]

Ahhhh that's an awesome series love it. That is one of the things I do love about technology, letting us understand the beauty of the universe more profoundly. I'm definitely not a it was better back then. I know that the past has been a pretty brutish short and difficult life for those in thos times
For me it's about using technology and our better understanding of ourselves as humans and the world we live in and get rid of all the selfish destructive and blind ways most of us live our lives by

[Vraith]

Our world has just as much beauty as the Land's. If humans could only cultivate their inner powers they would see as TC "sees" in The Land. I believe this ability was a common thing thousands of years ago in ancient tribes and such. Sadly, the age of industry and high tech has obliterated this natural gift.

Ah, the age-old topos 'everything was so much better XXX years ago, when men were men and beauty was beauty'. There is as much beauty in the present as it was in the past, a bit different maybe, but beauty nevertheless. The inner powers are there.

To all, I really-really recommend watching this series: www.amazon.co.uk/Wonders-Universe-DVD-B ... 468&sr=8-1

One of the most poignant science TV shows I've ever seen; it summarizes what's beautiful in our fragile existence so well.

Sorry for the OFF.

heh...just to stay OFF for a moment...there is a lot, there is even a lot that literally could not be if not for tech. BUT---we do destroy a lot and care little, AND we've built much more that is ugliness that could not be without us, and enormous tracts and swaths where our doings have replaced something lovely with something BORING...and that is even worse than ugliness.