How will the Haruchai be redeemed?

[High Lord Tolkien]

I never said "serve".

[shadowbinding shoe]

HLT, after the Haruchai chose to serve the Lords, and that didn't work, and then served Covenant, and that didn't work, and then served The Land, and that didn't work, do you think their answer is going to be ... serving something else they haven't tried yet?

I think three failures is Donaldson saying that they need a paradigm shift. They need to try something completely different. They need to give up one of their preconceived notions, like, for instance, that they need to serve something.

I agree, it's time they started doing the dirty boogie with the Haruchaiettes. This celibacy thing they have is clearly at the root of all their problems. They put it off for long enough! The consequences will be earth-shattering no doubt.

[RaverRats]

Haruchai Redemption Scenario:
Bhapa and Pahni are definitely sent back to Revelstone with some specific task ahead. Remember the Timewarden’s words thru Anele about these two. “In some way you have the hardest job. You have to survive. And you’ll have to make them listen to you.” So far TC’s words as the Timewarden have always come to fruition, although not always in the way we would expect. So they are the trigger for some needful event.

Grief. Though-out the Chronicles the Haruchai race has been riddled with the lack of comprehension of grief/failure. SRD has mentioned several times that grief is the lesson they need to understand and it appears Pahni will have a major role in this. Somehow the Masters mindset must be swayed and they must lose the arrogance they attained after Brinn defeated ak-Haru and find their proper humility.

I agree with High Lord Tolkien’s original thoughts on the Masters. The only thing left in the Land that can provide an army is the Masters. But any contingent of them, as awesome as they are, would be doomed against an army of Skurj and/or Sandgorgans. We’re going to need to find a way to throttle up the Hachurchai to Super Lord status in a hurry. So how do they get there?

The legendary ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol. If my theory is correct and ak-Haru is still on the playing field, this is my answer to the Masters redemption. The way I read it, the Guardian isn’t Brinn. He isn’t the Theomach. He isn’t Elohim. He is a Holy Trinity of all three natures. So what is the Guardian’s power level? I am imagining Earthpower incarnate (Elohim), unlawful carnal knowledge (Insequesnt) and combat prowess (Hachuchai) all rolled into one. And the Masters will pay heed to the words of ak-Haru.

Sensing the Earth’s need, the Guardian meets up with the Masters. And much like the way that Cail was able to share his knowledge with the Hachuchai in WGW to overcome the Clave’s mind control, ak-Haru is able to spread his knowledge amongst the Masters. This turns them all into powerful Lords (quasi-forestals?) instantly. I am guessing this would be a powerful enough force to allow the White Gold Wielders and Jerry access to LF for the ultimate “Kobayasi Maru” showdown.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Or......what if Ak-Haru allows Pahni to defeat him in combat?
That would shock the hell out of the Masters for sure.

[wayfriend]

I have always harbored a suspicion that ak-Haru was some sort of melding of Haruchai, Insequent, and Elohim. And I think Esmer feared the result of this melding. (He accuses the Haruchai of creating some ambiguous "havoc", and this may not refer to his own self. "You have given birth to havoc, Haruchai, Bloodguard, treachers!" Or maybe it does.) One thing we do know is that Donaldson sacrificed a small amount of continuity in his story to get Elohim into ak-Haru, so it must be important.

Such a being is a union of antitheses. This has to be central. The Creator and Despite are antitheses. And unions and merges have been central to both the second and last Chronicles. Nom/Raver, Covenant/Arch, Brinn/ak-Haru, etc.

Yes, if ak-Haru has a role to play in this, it will be a kick-ass role.

The question is, what about his role as Guardian? As long as the One Tree lives, can he leave it's side? Maybe the One Tree moves to Revelstone ...

[Vraith]

I have always harbored a suspicion that ak-Haru was some sort of melding of Haruchai, Insequent, and Elohim. And I think Esmer feared the result of this melding. (He accuses the Haruchai of creating some ambiguous "havoc", and this may not refer to his own self. "You have given birth to havoc, Haruchai, Bloodguard, treachers!" Or maybe it does.) One thing we do know is that Donaldson sacrificed a small amount of continuity in his story to get Elohim into ak-Haru, so it must be important.

Such a being is a union of antitheses. This has to be central. The Creator and Despite are antitheses. And unions and merges have been central to both the second and last Chronicles. Nom/Raver, Covenant/Arch, Brinn/ak-Haru, etc.

Yes, if ak-Haru has a role to play in this, it will be a kick-ass role.

The question is, what about his role as Guardian? As long as the One Tree lives, can he leave it's side? Maybe the One Tree moves to Revelstone ...

I'm pretty sure...not positive...that SRD said that such a melding isn't so. Which isn't to say that being guardian doesn't come with its own kind of power, it almost has to if Brinn is still around, an idea I like so hope is so. [Interesting to note, though perhaps insignificant, that Brinn is the first that isn't basically immortal in his own right].
I thought the havoc was Esmer and perhaps also the Har.'s suppression of Lore and Power...but you may be on to something, maybe there's more to it.
On the one tree...a lot of hmmmm....is it still around now that the worm is on the move? [It appeared to be physically near the worms resting place, rooted in the accretions upon the worm,...but perhaps that was misleading] Does the guardian die, or begin dying once the thing guarded is dead or dying?
But I'm fascinated by wondering what an ascendant/transcendent Har. transformed to Guardian, alone and waiting for almost 4000 years, might learn/become, since we have hints the guardian loses none of its inborn abilities in the change [the Elo, it seems did not lose earthpower, the insequent his abilities...].

[Cameraman Jenn]

I haven't read this whole thread so forgive me if it's already been brought up. There is a precedent for Haruchai being able to feel regret, sorrow, humility and act upon it. Bannor. His story is one of the most poignant in the series in my opinion.

[shadowbinding shoe]

I haven't read this whole thread so forgive me if it's already been brought up. There is a precedent for Haruchai being able to feel regret, sorrow, humility and act upon it. Bannor. His story is one of the most poignant in the series in my opinion.

Very true. Though, I don't think present day Haruchai understand why he did the things he did. Isn't there a Haruchai in one of the books that says no Haruchai understands why Bannor did not accompany Thomas Covenant to Foul's Creche but know that his actions were did right?

[High Lord Tolkien]

I haven't read this whole thread so forgive me if it's already been brought up. There is a precedent for Haruchai being able to feel regret, sorrow, humility and act upon it. Bannor. His story is one of the most poignant in the series in my opinion.

Very true. Though, I don't think present day Haruchai understand why he did the things he did. Isn't there a Haruchai in one of the books that says no Haruchai understands why Bannor did not accompany Thomas Covenant to Foul's Creche but know that his actions were did right?

(you flipped flopped some words so I might be restating what you said)

i thought that the Haruchai did NOT agree with Bannor's choice (called it a failure, I think) but because of his age/service/sacrifice they honored his choice. Or something like that.

[shadowbinding shoe]

I haven't read this whole thread so forgive me if it's already been brought up. There is a precedent for Haruchai being able to feel regret, sorrow, humility and act upon it. Bannor. His story is one of the most poignant in the series in my opinion.

Very true. Though, I don't think present day Haruchai understand why he did the things he did. Isn't there a Haruchai in one of the books that says no Haruchai understands why Bannor did not accompany Thomas Covenant to Foul's Creche but know that his actions were did right?

(you flipped flopped some words so I might be restating what you said)

i thought that the Haruchai did NOT agree with Bannor's choice (called it a failure, I think) but because of his age/service/sacrifice they honored his choice. Or something like that.

No, that's not exactly my opinion. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

My impression was that when they used their mind meld on him they felt his righteousness and accepted that he did the right thing but couldn't figure his logic so took it on faith.

But you may be right.

[RaverRats]

Go to FR around page 365. Stave is finally shelling out some history, in typical Haruchai fashion, that could have been told before, but nobody bothered to ask. Why didn't they raise thier hand and offer some advice unasked for in a time of need? Because they would have to admit they failed once upon a time.

Anyway, Stave states that the Haruchai were shamed by the puny little speed freak Vizard, and only gained respect back for themselves after Brinn's defeat of ak-Haru. Now Linden thinks that thier self worth is over the top, because they never learned to grieve thru all of this. It's true that back in Bannor's days they learned some self doubt, but since Brinn's victory the Masters have got the old band back together again. I don't know how SRD is going to pull it off, but all signs point to the Ramen Pahni teaching the all boys club a lesson on grief.

[Ananda]

Wonder if

“Mayhap the insight we require lies elsewhere in Anele’s utterance. Did he not state that the Worm will bring destruction ‘If it is not opposed by the forgotten truth of stone and wood—’? What is this truth?”

Will have a bearing on their redemption? Will they restore the heritage to the people in some way? Seems that would take too long to solve the immediate crisis, but they hold all the material for this sort of opposition in their vault.

[wayfriend]

Interesting thought, Ananda, but I am not sure if there is time to restore the lore of stone and wood to the people of the Land.

[Ananda]

Yeah I agree on the time thing for trainng, but, if the Worm is to be stopped (and we all assume it will be), then these forces play a role. I attached them to the Haruchai because, if I'm not mistaken, they hold all such items of power. They cant train a new force in the time needed, but maybe they have kept those things alive either in their memories or in a group who aren't allowed to leave Revelstone, maybe? Like they considered doing with Liand?

A less likely thing is to bring experts from the past? I think Sheriff Lytton, White gold toothpick wielder is more likely, though. But, some use of this power is tied in with the resolution and the Haruchai have the sticks and stones, so maybe?

[Eggthang]

People usually grieve over things they care for and one of the few things the H have shown they care for is the Ranyyn. Perhaps theirs is the destruction Anele refers to and Pahni's role is teach them that they could have prevented it if they had shared their knowledge - gloomy thought for the day.

[sindatur]

People usually grieve over things they care for and one of the few things the H have shown they care for is the Ranyyn. Perhaps theirs is the destruction Anele refers to and Pahni's role is teach them that they could have prevented it if they had shared their knowledge - gloomy thought for the day.

Oooh, I don't like that thought at all, especially with how much more in depth they have become in this Last Chronicles (More possible evidence they may be doomed )

Welcome to the board Eggthang

[Seppi2112]

“Mayhap the insight we require lies elsewhere in Anele’s utterance. Did he not state that the Worm will bring destruction ‘If it is not opposed by the forgotten truth of stone and wood—’?

I'd hazard that this is more a question of the One Rock and the One Tree, the communion between Anele and the rock being a major source of dialogue in ROTE before mysteriously vanishing from consideration almost completely in the later books.

[wayfriend]

I believe that when Anele said, "the forgotten truths of stone and wood, orcrest and refusal", he was speaking about Earthpower. TC just about says that at some point. See AATE, Part 1, Chapter 6: Seek Deep Stone.

It may be too late for the people of the Land to weild Earthpower. Perhaps the Masters can. Or perhaps the Masters can give it to the people of the Land in some way, maybe telecommunicate it directly into everyone's heads or something.

It sure would be nice if the people of the Land got back their heritage before the end.

[Vraith]

I believe that when Anele said, "the forgotten truths of stone and wood, orcrest and refusal", he was speaking about Earthpower. TC just about says that at some point. See AATE, Part 1, Chapter 6: Seek Deep Stone.

It may be too late for the people of the Land to weild Earthpower. Perhaps the Masters can. Or perhaps the Masters can give it to the people of the Land in some way, maybe telecommunicate it directly into everyone's heads or something.

It sure would be nice if the people of the Land got back their heritage before the end.

I agree he was speaking of earthpower and the knowledge of it that's been lost. I don't think the Master's mind-melding everyone is likely...but that idea and the heritage thing...that might go somewhere, in a way. Do I recall correctly that the Master's have preserved/stored up all the old power/lore artifacts? [isn't that what they wanted to do with the staff, too?] What might be there? Where might that lead?

[Ananda]

Do I recall correctly that the Master's have preserved/stored up all the old power/lore artifacts? [isn't that what they wanted to do with the staff, too?] What might be there? Where might that lead?

That's what I said a few posts up. They also have hostages who 'know to much' just as they considered doing with Liand, so maybe some of those people who are forced to stay in Revelstone for knowing things might be set loose.