Elena, daughter of Lena

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 3:28 am

Dukka, I'm SO glad you've joined the Watch!!

Re women and power, the seemingly endless number of groupies for Mick Jagger, Meatloaf, and other guys who would not otherwise be considered attractive support what your wife said.

Re Triock:

"You are not to blame. She was -flawed from birth."

That was as far as his mercy could go.

Although Covenant should take it the way you suggest, it doesn't look like Triock intended it that way.

DukkhaWaynhim wrote:Poor Triock. Life did not treat him kindly.

For me, there are VERY few passages as painful as this one:

Lena Atiaran-daughter's desire to accompany the Unbeliever turned all Triock's long years of devotion to dust and loss, and all his lavish love had been wasted.

Post by **matrixman** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 3:37 am

(Please ignore)

Post by **Zephalephelah** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 12:43 pm

Without rape, there is no Elena. Bad things happen to people. How often do you hear my parents or uncles or someone in the family line molested me? It's often. At any rate, it's part of the story, I'm surpised beyond belief that you can't get past this.

I wish it were not so, but in the stories, it happened. You cannot escape it.

Post by **birdandbear** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 9:01 pm

Well, Zeph, it seems to me that you're the one hung up on the rape.....no one else has mentioned it in awhile.

Post by **Skyweir** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:58 am

yeah it would seem that way

its kinda odd though to define someone by the method of their conception

Elena's problem imho .. is to do with her life experience .. once given life

her experience with the raynhin .. and being raised by a neurotic obsessed parent

Post by **Zephalephelah** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:35 pm

All's I gots to say is without the rape, no Elena.

Post by **dANdeLION** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:38 pm

Skyweir wrote:its kinda odd though to define someone by the method of their conception

I agree. Now, will everybody please stop calling me a bastard? It's embarrassing my parents, and it don't help me none too much, either!

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:34 pm

Oh shut up, you ba... Uh... you crazy guy you!!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 9:13 am

dANdeLION wrote:
Skyweir wrote:its kinda odd though to define someone by the method of their conception
I agree. Now, will everybody please stop calling me a bastard? It's embarrassing my parents, and it don't help me none too much, either!

LOLS .. point!!

Post by **Zephalephelah** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:24 am

birdandbear wrote:Well, Zeph, it seems to me that you're the one hung up on the rape.....no one else has mentioned it in awhile.

It's not that I'm hung up on it. It's that everyone is so afraid to talk about it. No one seems so freaked out by Dukka, Pitten, or Llaura. No, everyone talks about how this rape practically ruined their view of Thomas or whatever. Yeah, and I bet if we knew all of your crimes then we might think you were a weirdo too. Not you personally, just anyone at all. We all have our bad points, things we regret. And, again, for the thousandth time, he thought it was a dream and therefore it wasn't real and therefore he wasn't doing anything wrong because it was not reality.

Post by **Loredoctor** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:31 am

We talk about, or I talk about it, because it's the most shocking thing. Further, I spend alot of time talking in the Gap forum about other shocking things than rape.
Just because it may have been a dream means nothing. He was in control of his decisions; the decision to rape is no less shocking than the act of rape - it implies something fundamentally wrong with the individual. TC himself regretted what he did (the day after reveals how sick he felt by the act). The fact is may have been a dream means nothing.

Post by **Skyweir** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:43 am

and actually .. there's the rub

a wrong isnt always legislated against .. it all comes back to that immortal .. "question of ethics" .. which brilliantly the little old beggar dude alluded to!

at the end of the day .. right and wrong are choices made on the stage of the mind .. we think therefore .. we .. .... act

but not all we think is truly who we are .. because many thoughts that may enter the mental stage .. are boo-d off!! censored .. or just out right rejected.

others are played over and over .. others dont make another curtain call ..

Elena's choices is what this thread is centred on .. what thoughts entertained her mind .. and lead to choices and her ultimate actions.

Post by **DukkhaWaynhim** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 6:28 pm

Zeph, Elena was the product of the rape, both physically and emotionally. The physicality I think we all understand. The emotional perspective is the more interesting author's angle, I think, because I assume that not all children of rape grow up to lead tragic existences. However, Elena grew up being taught that Covenant either walked on water or belonged at a permanent depth of 1,000 feet. That polarity, along with many other special factors in her life [Ranyhyn, her parentage and its implications, her extreme emotions, her drive] caused her to be a tragic pawn of the Despiser---she ended up becoming the thing she hated most.

DW

Post by **[Syl]** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:46 pm

Zephalephelah wrote:No one seems so freaked out by Dukka, Pitten, or Llaura.

6th post down, two down from yours - kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2421&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
Most of this whole thread - kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=346&start=0
And this one - kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=422&highlight=pietten

Post by **Skyweir** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 9:45 am

now thats what I'm talkin' 'bout

Hearthcoal used to be up on the linking .. kudos syl!!

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Elena, daughter of Lena