Who would win in a fight...

[[Syl]]

Berek or Kevin?

I never understood why Elena chose Kevin. I mean, he already failed to beat Foul once. I doubt Berek would've won either, but I'd think he had a better chance.

First, Berek was a general.

Second, Berek discovered the Earthpower (and I assume this is what Kevin based the wards off of. did Kevin or his predecessors ever expand upon what Berek learned?) in the depths of despair. You could say Kevin lost it in despair (is it coincidence despair and despite look so similar?).

Just my thoughts.

[Romeo]

I'd say Kevin. The books did say that he was by far the most powerful of the Old Lords. Thousands of years of lore piled on top of that initial discovery of earthpower.

[danlo]

I would have 2 agree w/Romeo's logic...

[Gilden]

I would have to say Berek. The book did say that Kevin was the most powerful, but he fell to despair, while Berek stood strong. I think Berek would win in pure strength of will.

[Sevothtarte]

First, Berek was a general.

Doesn't matter, since the order wasn't to lead an army against Foul or challenge him to a game of chess, but to take him on one-to-one. Since Kevin was by all accounts more powerful magically, he was the obvious choice.

Guess she also thought him to be even more powerful because of being driven by an overwhelming desire of revenge - too bad you don't get vengeful when you've been beaten by yourself ...

[[Syl]]

Berek appears to have been as much the fearsome warrior as he was a tactician. The man knew how to fight even before he knew the Earthlore.

"But he fought on, heedless of his fate and the number of his foes, and souls fell dead under his sword like autumn leaves in a gale.

It's true that Atiaran calls Kevin "the most powerful champion in all the ages of the Land," but I think she had a kind of hero worship of Kevin which might have been passed on to her granddaughter. In chapter 16 of LFB Lord Tamarantha seemed to have a different opinion.

"Mhoram my son, you are not yet a prophet. You must learn that kind of courage." Slowly, she pulled her ancient limbs together and got to her feet, leaning on her staff for support. Her thin white hair hung in wisps about her face as she moved into the circle around the fire, muttering frailty, "Oracles and prophecy are incompatible. According to Kevin's Lore, only Heartthew the Lord-Fatherer was both seer and prophet. Lesser souls lose the paradox. Why, I do not know. But when Kevin Landwaster decided in his heart to invoke the Ritual of Desecration, he saved the Bloodguard and the Ranyhyn and the Giants because he was an oracle. And because he was no prophet he failed to see that Lord Foul would survive. A lesser man than Berek.

And I think that's the difference right there. Even if Berek was outmatched, I don't think he would accept defeat.

[Fist and Faith]

I'll agree that Berek is the greater man. When he knew that he was defeated, he didn't think anything that suggests despair.

However, he <I>was</I> defeated. Not accepting defeat, that is, not feeling despair and giving up, doesn't mean you don't get physically defeated. It "only" means you are not spiritually defeated. So the question is, could Berek hold off Kevin for as long as it would take for doubt and despair to effect Kevin's abilities enough to turn the battle?

[Zahir]

Oh, I think Kevin is more powerful than Berek, because he had centuries more development of lore.

But also, I get the impression Lord Foul was more powerful in past ages. The Ritual of Desecration reduced him, and in a big way. Alas for the Land, Foul remained immortal and cruelly wise.

[Damelon]

They were the specters of the dead Lords. He recognized Kevin son of Loric....And behind and above them all rose another figure, a dominating man with hot prophetic eyes and one halfhand: Berek Earthfriend, the Lord-Fatherer.

I think in overall stature that quote tips it to Berek.

[birdandbear]

Gotta go with Berek.

Berek was as pivotal a historical personage in the history of the Land as Jesus Christ was in our own history. He awoke the Earthpower, and through his covenant with the Land introduced a completely new way of life to it's people.

Wielding the first Earthpower, he made the Staff of Law from the wood of the One Tree, and with it began the healing of the land. In the fullness of time, Berek Halfhand was given the name Heartthew, and he became the Lord-Fatherer, the first of the Old Lords. Those who followed his path flourished in the Land for two thousand years.

Even Kevin, with all his might and glory, just could not match the protean status of the Lord-Fatherer. I think he would have been shocked at the idea.

[/i]

[aliantha]

I'm going with Berek, too. As somebody already said, Kevin has been beaten once by despair. He might just take one look at Berek and say, "I'm not worthy!"

[Gilden]

Whoever said that Kevin had centuries more of lore, Kevin happens to be Berek's descendant... just thought I'd let you know.

[Lord Mhoram]

Clearly Berek, Kevin didnt really beat anyone, Berek beat in Raver, in a King's body! Go Berek!

[Reisheiruhime]

I'm going to have to go with Berek. I don't know why. I just don't think much of Kevin.

[MokshaTuriyaSamadhi Raver]

How can you say "No contest"?

Who did the Earthpower speak to? Sure as hell wasn't Kevin.

*MTSR who has a Berek is God complex*

[Fist and Faith]

Wow, this is a fun thread!!!!

Regarding actual power... I would assume that much was learned between Berek and Kevin, so Kevin probably had a lot more power at his disposal. [Another option is that the Earthpower gave Berek all knowledge of power that the Lords ever knew, and the time between Berek and Kevin was filled with using that power on a bigger and bigger part of the Land. But I don't think this is likely. I think they learned more all the time. If nothing else supports this idea, the <I>krill</I> wasn't made by Berek or Damelon.] The people consider Kevin to have been most powerful. Atiaran called him "the most powerful champion in all the ages of the Land," and Elena adds, "He was the highest of all Berek Heartthew's great line - the Lord most full of dominion in all the Land's known or legended history."

However, that doesn't answer the question of who had more power <I>that could be used against the other.</I> For example, maybe Kevin discovered many of the Seven Words. This would give him more power to fight evil than Berek had. But shouting them at Berek would not have helped Kevin.

Besides, what makes Kevin higher in the eyes of Elena? His friendship with the Giants, the Ranyhyn's adoration of him, and the effect he had on the <I>Haruchai</I>. Surely things that make a great High Lord, but not things of power.

But Elena was wrong about Kevin in a couple of ways. One was in saying that "his fidelity to the Land and the Earthpower knew neither taint nor flaw." I don't see how this opinion of him can be defended. His fidelity was only without taint or flaw when all was well. Elena doesn't say how she reconciles her opinion of him with his having enacted the RoD. She talks about those "who believe that the Ritual of Desecration expressed High Lord Kevin's highest wisdom." But I don't find the argument as eloquent as she did.

But more important is this quote. (Which also answers Sylvanus' question of why Elena chose Kevin despite his having been beaten by Foul once already.):

Thomas Covenant, I believe that there is immeasurable strength in the consummation of despair - strength beyond all conceiving by an unholocausted soul. I believe that if High Lord Kevin could speak from beyond the grave, he would utter a word which would unmarrow the very bones of Lord Foul's Despite."

Clearly, she was wrong about this possible source of power that Kevin might use, so maybe she was wrong about others. He might not have been as strong as she, or anyone, thought. He probably didn't have to fight all that often before Foul was revealed, so how did they judge?

I also think the conditions of the fight would play a big role. Since these two would not fight willingly and knowingly, whatever forces them to fight might effect the outcome. If both were mastered by the Illearth Stone, then Kevin would not be able to despair, as we've been discussing. The same might apply if they were commanded to fight by someone who drank the EarthBlood.


As a tangent I'd like to know how anyone knows that Foul laughed and that Kevin heard. Maybe Foul screamed in pain. Maybe there was too much power and noise for Kevin to hear anything.

[JD]

Sure Berek discovered EarthPower, but Kevin mastered it. Even though he desecrated the Land, I still think he would have whipped Berek's butt.

[MokshaTuriyaSamadhi Raver]

Kevin never mastered Earthpower. I think the whole incident with the Earthblood proves that. And Berek didn't discover Earthpower. The Earthpower chose him.

It wouldn't talk to anyone else, not even TC - the wielder of the white gold, the wild magic that breaks peace.

Being the chosen of Earthpower has to count for something

[Guest]

Superman would kick all there butts....and if some how superman did get defeated,sure as hell wouldnt be by kevin =)

[[Syl]]

I always thought the Illearth Stone looked just like kryptonite.