Why does Vain attack the Ur-Viles? I just don't get this: They made him and know him, and he knows them. I mean it's obvious as a plot-device used to kill off Hollian before Andelain, but I mean can anyone figure out a logical reason why they would fight? Later, near the very end of WGW, SRD even mentions that the Ur-Viles knew that he had successfully completed his mission, and were relived! It just doesn't jive.
Also, why in god's name does SRD try to convince us again and again that Vain's purpose was hidden from TC by his dead because his purpose may not be fulfilled if TC knows what it is?! Whatever, wasn't Vain's purpose obvious from the moment when he grabbed the heals of the old staff and stuck them around his wrist and ankle? There was even a more obvious hint when the Worm of the Worlds End turned his arm into wood. It seems to me that Vain's purpose would have been achieved just fine if TC knew everything up front.
I think both of these are pretty weak plot devices, and can't find any redeeming value. Can anyone else?
On Vain
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DukkhaWaynhim
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Hey There, Fletch.
It is possible that the Ur-Viles that made Vain are not of the same branch of lore as the ones that he fought with, so they wouldn't share the same lofty goals as those that spawned him. Or, Vain's making included specific instructions to destroy any other Ur-Viles he came across, knowing that the Ur-Viles are usually tools of the Despiser...I don't think we were ever told that the Ur-Viles had really broken their alliance with Foul, so the Ur-Viles that made Vain might have been doing it as an act of personal redemption, despite their (implicit) orders from FOul not to help the enemy.
Alternately, Foul may very well have known of both Vain and his purpose, and did nothing to prevent his making, in the hopes that in trying to fulfill the remaking of the SoL that Covenant would unleash enough venomed wild magic to take down the AoT, thus obtaining his ultimate objective. Foul's goals always include skating on the thin ice---high stakes for high payoff.
As far as 'convincing us' of Vain's true purpose---sure, there is a serious amount of foreshadowing that goes on, but Covenant wasn't really given a lot of good reasons to trust Vain, nor was it ever made painfully obvious; he was told that Vain's purpose was desirable, and that he would have to leave the Land to attain his goal. Covenant assumed it was to make a new Staff 'from scratch', rather than just bring the two components for it together---but it wasn't really that easy, was it? Linden was the one that needed to do it, but nobody knew that yet, and she wouldn't have been ready for it if Findail had just popped in the moment before they boarded Starfare's Gem at the end of TWL.
Plus, at the time that Covenant got his coded marching orders in Andelain, he assumed that HE would be the one to defeat Foul, make the new Staff, and then save the Land. If he had tried to do it all, would he have busted the AoT? I think he would have, because Linden would never have consented to bare herself to the Sunbane at that point, and Covenant didn't have the Land-sense to know what he was doing, he would not have given up his ring at that point, and he was still envenomed at that point.
From the outsiders angle: there is always that familiar fantasy theme for stories with predestinies: You can only know when it is time to know, or you must earn the knowledge rather than be handed it. Donaldson believes in this theme, IMO because it is wise...and because it makes for a better story
From an even further outside angle: most fantasy novel characters don't know that they are predestined to succeed; the [jaded] reader provides this layer of awareness, and despite the fact that we sort of assume it will all work out in the end, we read anyway, because we trust the author to make the journey interesting, which I believe SRD does magnificently.
How much less interesting would it have been if Covenant had been handed the kitchen-tested recipe for one living Staff of Law right from the onset? Quite a bit, I think.
But, this is all just my opinion.
It is possible that the Ur-Viles that made Vain are not of the same branch of lore as the ones that he fought with, so they wouldn't share the same lofty goals as those that spawned him. Or, Vain's making included specific instructions to destroy any other Ur-Viles he came across, knowing that the Ur-Viles are usually tools of the Despiser...I don't think we were ever told that the Ur-Viles had really broken their alliance with Foul, so the Ur-Viles that made Vain might have been doing it as an act of personal redemption, despite their (implicit) orders from FOul not to help the enemy.
Alternately, Foul may very well have known of both Vain and his purpose, and did nothing to prevent his making, in the hopes that in trying to fulfill the remaking of the SoL that Covenant would unleash enough venomed wild magic to take down the AoT, thus obtaining his ultimate objective. Foul's goals always include skating on the thin ice---high stakes for high payoff.
As far as 'convincing us' of Vain's true purpose---sure, there is a serious amount of foreshadowing that goes on, but Covenant wasn't really given a lot of good reasons to trust Vain, nor was it ever made painfully obvious; he was told that Vain's purpose was desirable, and that he would have to leave the Land to attain his goal. Covenant assumed it was to make a new Staff 'from scratch', rather than just bring the two components for it together---but it wasn't really that easy, was it? Linden was the one that needed to do it, but nobody knew that yet, and she wouldn't have been ready for it if Findail had just popped in the moment before they boarded Starfare's Gem at the end of TWL.
Plus, at the time that Covenant got his coded marching orders in Andelain, he assumed that HE would be the one to defeat Foul, make the new Staff, and then save the Land. If he had tried to do it all, would he have busted the AoT? I think he would have, because Linden would never have consented to bare herself to the Sunbane at that point, and Covenant didn't have the Land-sense to know what he was doing, he would not have given up his ring at that point, and he was still envenomed at that point.
From the outsiders angle: there is always that familiar fantasy theme for stories with predestinies: You can only know when it is time to know, or you must earn the knowledge rather than be handed it. Donaldson believes in this theme, IMO because it is wise...and because it makes for a better story
From an even further outside angle: most fantasy novel characters don't know that they are predestined to succeed; the [jaded] reader provides this layer of awareness, and despite the fact that we sort of assume it will all work out in the end, we read anyway, because we trust the author to make the journey interesting, which I believe SRD does magnificently.
How much less interesting would it have been if Covenant had been handed the kitchen-tested recipe for one living Staff of Law right from the onset? Quite a bit, I think.
But, this is all just my opinion.
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Loredoctor
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I think TC was blind to Vain's real purpose. He knew Vain was a gift from the Ur-Viles, so perhaps the last thing he expected was them to make a Staff of Law. TC was so driven on his quest, and as Dukkha said TC wanted to make the staff, that maybe he was unaware. Perhaps to him, Vain was a simply a guardian.
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Matrixman: My post was not intended to be flamebait, I really wanted to spark a discussion about this. I was just a bit dissapointed with Vain towards the end, and those two things stuck out for me like a sore thumb.
After thinking a bit further about it, I am not quite so upset about my second item, TC's dead... I realized that if they knew what Vain was for, Findail might not have accompanied them, or they might never even have met the Elohim... TC might have gone straight after Foul.
The first item still bugs me though, even after DukkhaWaynhim's thoughtful response. SRD never mentions any other Ur-Vile "factions" (other than the Waynhim, who respected and treated Vain well when they met), and even if Foul knew of Vain's purpose, I still don't think Ur-Viles would ever attack him... he represented their hope in the same way that the burial mound was the hope of the Cavewights... They should have guarded Vain with the same ferocity that the Cavewights showed when their burial mound was threatened.
After thinking a bit further about it, I am not quite so upset about my second item, TC's dead... I realized that if they knew what Vain was for, Findail might not have accompanied them, or they might never even have met the Elohim... TC might have gone straight after Foul.
The first item still bugs me though, even after DukkhaWaynhim's thoughtful response. SRD never mentions any other Ur-Vile "factions" (other than the Waynhim, who respected and treated Vain well when they met), and even if Foul knew of Vain's purpose, I still don't think Ur-Viles would ever attack him... he represented their hope in the same way that the burial mound was the hope of the Cavewights... They should have guarded Vain with the same ferocity that the Cavewights showed when their burial mound was threatened.
What if the ur-viles Vain fights were compelled to fight despite the fact they had made Vain themselves? For all we know, Foul might have compelled them to his service and forced them to fight even though they knew Vain and they knew that if he were destroyed, no new Staff of Law could be made; and if Foul knew of Vain's purpose, then this would have truly been his style, to force the ur-viles to attack their only hope of salvation: if they had destroyed Vain, the ur-viles would have been driven to despair, and thus any chance of them trying to make a new Vain, or to subtly undermine Foul's plans would vanish, and they would forevermore be his utter slaves, in the crushing anguish that they had destroyed their only hope themselves.
But as for TC, I agree that he didn't trust Vain, and he didn't know much about making a new Staff of Law. After all, to make a staff out of two people is pretty far-fetched, isn't it? He was sure he would need the One Tree to fashion a Staff of Law, and so he didn't even consider why Vain had taken the iron heels of the old Staff - or if he ever stopped to wonder about that, he might have thought that Vain would carry them to place them on the new Staff of Law, once it was fashioned. Sometimes we believe something so much that we blind ourselves to any alternate possibilities: Covenant's utter belief in having to fashion a Staff of Law from the One Tree blinded him to Vain's purpose. If he had been told that purpose from the beginning, he would perhaps have gone to the elohim, and they would perhaps have sent Findail anyway, but he would have never "met" Nom, and thus he would have never had the power to enter Revelstone and destroy the Clave; he would have never found the One Tree and discovered Foul's plans; he would never have brought back the knowledge of the croyel to the Waynhim, and thus they would have been destroyed on the icy field of battle in WGW; but most importantly, if he had known of Vain's purpose, he would have done everything in his power to make sure Vain was unscathed; therefore, Vain would have been with him and Linden when they faced Foul, and if Foul had known of Vain's purpose, he would have obliterated him with wild magic, thus shattering all hopes for a new Staff of Law.
But as for TC, I agree that he didn't trust Vain, and he didn't know much about making a new Staff of Law. After all, to make a staff out of two people is pretty far-fetched, isn't it? He was sure he would need the One Tree to fashion a Staff of Law, and so he didn't even consider why Vain had taken the iron heels of the old Staff - or if he ever stopped to wonder about that, he might have thought that Vain would carry them to place them on the new Staff of Law, once it was fashioned. Sometimes we believe something so much that we blind ourselves to any alternate possibilities: Covenant's utter belief in having to fashion a Staff of Law from the One Tree blinded him to Vain's purpose. If he had been told that purpose from the beginning, he would perhaps have gone to the elohim, and they would perhaps have sent Findail anyway, but he would have never "met" Nom, and thus he would have never had the power to enter Revelstone and destroy the Clave; he would have never found the One Tree and discovered Foul's plans; he would never have brought back the knowledge of the croyel to the Waynhim, and thus they would have been destroyed on the icy field of battle in WGW; but most importantly, if he had known of Vain's purpose, he would have done everything in his power to make sure Vain was unscathed; therefore, Vain would have been with him and Linden when they faced Foul, and if Foul had known of Vain's purpose, he would have obliterated him with wild magic, thus shattering all hopes for a new Staff of Law.
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Skyweir
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the urviles serve Foul .. those in his service are controlled by him.
Vain is an urvile per se .. but he is not the same as the run of the mill demondim spawn under Foul's commanding
ok i have a question of sorts ..
Foul is the 'maker' the jheherrin speak of .. and when TC and Foamy met the jheherrin (by-products of Maker-work. In the caves they spoke to TC and Foamy of the Maker and the un-makers .. and un-maker work .. and that there exists in the Land at that time some un-maker made that bear their own young.
but they are not much heard of .. The jheherrin speak of their legend of the Pure One .. and pure offspring.
Vain .. was created by the Ur-vile lore by their hand we learn .. but what if he was the first .. to be birthed and yet also "formed" by the urviles.
ok ok .. Foamy was birthed again .. following the caamora so .. mmm .. tricky
When Foamy gave his gift to TC he said
Vain is the first of the last?
When TC & company come across the skest .. they meet the sur-jeheherrin .. the inheritors of the jheherrin now living in the mud and mire of Sarangrage Flat .. they agree to assist the questors in the name of the "Pure One"
but Foamfollower - The Pure One. Burned clean by the caamora of Hotash Slay, he had cast down the Despiser, broken the doom of the jheherrin.
TC muses that this made the sur-jheherrin the fruit of Foamy's clean heart. So metaphorically speaking Foamy could fit .. but imho .. Vain fits in better!
ok so following that umm .. arguably extensive tangent .. to answer the question .. Vain had no fealty for anything or anyone .. apart from some connection clearly with LA .. but to his designed purpose.
He served no one .. but that purpose .. He could be commanded by none .. but that once .. when TC commanded him to stop the woodhelvin hoarde ..
Vain is an urvile per se .. but he is not the same as the run of the mill demondim spawn under Foul's commanding
ok i have a question of sorts ..
Foul is the 'maker' the jheherrin speak of .. and when TC and Foamy met the jheherrin (by-products of Maker-work. In the caves they spoke to TC and Foamy of the Maker and the un-makers .. and un-maker work .. and that there exists in the Land at that time some un-maker made that bear their own young.
but they are not much heard of .. The jheherrin speak of their legend of the Pure One .. and pure offspring.
I have always felt confused by this statement .. We tend to believe Foamy was the pure one spoken of here .. and for all intents and purposes it would seem he fits this title perfectly!! .. but if I am not mistaken this sounds to me like it also refers to Vain. Can it realistically mean both? or does it refer only to a concept of such a being .. to refer to the Pure race of ur-viles?it is said that when the time is ready, a young will be birthed without flaw - a pure offspring impervious to the Maker and his making - unafraid. It is said theat this pure one will come bearing tokens of power to the Make's home. It is said that he will redeem the jheherrin if they prove -if he finds them worthy - that he will win from the Maker their release from fear and mud.
Vain .. was created by the Ur-vile lore by their hand we learn .. but what if he was the first .. to be birthed and yet also "formed" by the urviles.
ok ok .. Foamy was birthed again .. following the caamora so .. mmm .. tricky
When Foamy gave his gift to TC he said
.He is Vain ... the final spawn of the ur-viles ..he crowns all their generations of breeding ... His makers have ever been lore-wise, though tormented - and when it comes upon him, he, at least, will not fail
Vain is the first of the last?
Foamy himself doesnt seem to claim this title for himself .. and TC is awestruck ith Vain's pureness on receiving him .. this gift.In the name of Hotash Slay, where I was consumed and reborn, I beg you to accept this gift.
clearly Foamy asserts his own rebirth .. and we know and believe he became the pure one .. but I do not think Foamy is the pure one the jheherrin spoke of earlier ..covenant was struck once again by Vain's physical perfection
When TC & company come across the skest .. they meet the sur-jeheherrin .. the inheritors of the jheherrin now living in the mud and mire of Sarangrage Flat .. they agree to assist the questors in the name of the "Pure One"
but Foamfollower - The Pure One. Burned clean by the caamora of Hotash Slay, he had cast down the Despiser, broken the doom of the jheherrin.
TC muses that this made the sur-jheherrin the fruit of Foamy's clean heart. So metaphorically speaking Foamy could fit .. but imho .. Vain fits in better!
ok so following that umm .. arguably extensive tangent .. to answer the question ..
Vain had no fealty for anything or anyone .. apart from some connection clearly with LA .. but to his designed purpose. He served no one .. but that purpose .. He could be commanded by none .. but that once .. when TC commanded him to stop the woodhelvin hoarde ..
keep smiling
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Skyweir
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and re: TC not trusting VAin .. i get that a bit but to me it was soo stupid. Did he not trust Foamy?
Did he really believe Foamy would appeal to him to accept a gift that wouldnt be good?
and please .. dont tell me it wasnt that hard to work out the signs .. Vain's limbs turning to wood .. duh!
but to me it was soo stupid. Did he not trust Foamy? Did he really believe Foamy would appeal to him to accept a gift that wouldnt be good?
and please .. dont tell me it wasnt that hard to work out the signs .. Vain's limbs turning to wood .. duh!
keep smiling
'Smoke me a kipper .. I'll be back for breakfast!'
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Also keep in mind fletch, that these ur-viles were Sunbane-warped. TC realizes immediately that ur-viles are cunning and lore-wise, and that they would never be caught by the Sunbane unawares. He concludes that they must have been intentionally warped by the Despiser (perhaps for making Vain in the first place?). When Vain sees them, Linden feels anger from him for the first time (for the ur-viles hate what they are, and Foul's deformation of thier bodies would anger any ur-vile), and he subsequently begins to put them out of thier misery.
Also remember that ur-viles, like waynhim, have thier Wyrd. It may have been apparent that this sacrifice was neccessary for thier final victory, perhaps envisioning what would happen in Andelain, and realizing it was neccessary...
Just some thoughts...
-B
Also remember that ur-viles, like waynhim, have thier Wyrd. It may have been apparent that this sacrifice was neccessary for thier final victory, perhaps envisioning what would happen in Andelain, and realizing it was neccessary...
Just some thoughts...
-B
"Fortunate circumstances do not equate to high ideals."
"Mostly muffins sir."- My answer in response to the question posed by the officer, "Son, do you have anything on you I should know about?"
His response: "Holy $&!^. He's not kidding! Look at all these muffins!"
"Mostly muffins sir."- My answer in response to the question posed by the officer, "Son, do you have anything on you I should know about?"
His response: "Holy $&!^. He's not kidding! Look at all these muffins!"
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variol son
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Exactly what I was thinking. Remember that the fact that Vain reacted with anger to the warping or the ur-viles was one of the reasons LA chose to trust him.Baradakas wrote:Also keep in mind fletch, that these ur-viles were Sunbane-warped. TC realizes immediately that ur-viles are cunning and lore-wise, and that they would never be caught by the Sunbane unawares. He concludes that they must have been intentionally warped by the Despiser (perhaps for making Vain in the first place?). When Vain sees them, Linden feels anger from him for the first time (for the ur-viles hate what they are, and Foul's deformation of thier bodies would anger any ur-vile), and he subsequently begins to put them out of thier misery.
Sum sui generis
Vs
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
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DukkhaWaynhim
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I think TC did trust Foamfollower, but there's only so much trust you can place in the friend of a friend, especially if that friend-once-removed is a relative of your most bitter enemy. What if your friend was simply mistaken, and chose only to see what they wanted to? Don't underestimate Covenant's ability to mistrust new people, either... it took him a while to warm up to even the good guys in First Chrons...Skyweir wrote:and re: TC not trusting VAin .. i get that a bit
Did he really believe Foamy would appeal to him to accept a gift that wouldnt be good?
and please .. dont tell me it wasnt that hard to work out the signs .. Vain's limbs turning to wood .. duh!
As far as working out the signs....let's say TC was clever enough to notice that Vain, who was wearing the heels of the old Staff of Law, got a little woody after the encounter at the One Tree [sorry, bad pun, but a pun nonetheless
]. Even if he did this, could he have guessed that Findail needed to be trapped inside to make it work? I don't think so. Apparently, only Findail knew that (as well as the Dead, but they can't intervene without breaking other rules, whether they be within the fabric of the story or from a tale-tellers perspective). Findail himself was looking for every opportunity to discard the hand that Fate had dealt him, so I don't think he would ever have volunteered that information.For Covenant's part, he felt he had already failed his purpose for leaving the Land, so I don't think he was looking at the bigger picture. He was probably plotting some way to defeat Foul
In the end, though, I think we are debating about a point that is the equivalent of making fun of the teenagers that foolishly take the dare to spend the night in the haunted old house at the beginning of a B-horror movie. You want to call them names, but if they didn't take the dare, it would make for a short film, wouldn't it?
DW
"God is real, unless declared integer." - Unknown
skyweir, if Vain was the Pure One, in what way did he redeem the jheherrin?
Also, maybe I'm a bit slow, but I didn't get the whole "Vain would make the Staff" thing when I first read the Chronicles. It kind of came as I surprise (albeit one I smacked myself for not seeing earlier) when that's how it turned out...
Also, maybe I'm a bit slow, but I didn't get the whole "Vain would make the Staff" thing when I first read the Chronicles. It kind of came as I surprise (albeit one I smacked myself for not seeing earlier) when that's how it turned out...
If Sky is right, we may not see this redemption until the Third Chrons. The inevitable changes caused by the Staff could not be foreseen in the last novel. However, I am convinced that Foamfollower was the Pure One. The jeherrin themselves state that a Giant redeemed them, and that is why they help the company at the end of TWL.
The Urviles have been attempting to change themselves for millenia in thier breeding dens... perhaps the whole reason they served the Despiser was to gain the lore neccessary to accomplish the end of thier Wurd.
Just more thoughts...
-B
The Urviles have been attempting to change themselves for millenia in thier breeding dens... perhaps the whole reason they served the Despiser was to gain the lore neccessary to accomplish the end of thier Wurd.
Just more thoughts...
-B
"Fortunate circumstances do not equate to high ideals."
"Mostly muffins sir."- My answer in response to the question posed by the officer, "Son, do you have anything on you I should know about?"
His response: "Holy $&!^. He's not kidding! Look at all these muffins!"
"Mostly muffins sir."- My answer in response to the question posed by the officer, "Son, do you have anything on you I should know about?"
His response: "Holy $&!^. He's not kidding! Look at all these muffins!"
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Skyweir
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UrLord wrote:skyweir, if Vain was the Pure One, in what way did he redeem the jheherrin?
...
the Pure One will come bearing tokens ..it is said that when the time is ready, a young will be birthed without flaw - a pure offspring impervious to the Maker and his making - unafraid. It is said theat this pure one will come bearing tokens of power to the Maker's home. It is said that he will redeem the jheherrin if they prove -if he finds them worthy - that he will win from the Maker their release from fear and mud.
.. like the heels of the staff mayhap .. the ultimate staff of lore .. taken to the Maker's home.but this could also be Foamy ..
bearing Vain as a token/gift to TC .. but did not bear VAin to the Maker's home However .. Foamy did win the jeheherrin's liberation - from fear and mud.
As I said .. it fits Foamy .. but it also fits Vain .. I think that it is an interesting anomaly .. or maybe no anomaly at all .. it could also be both
keep smiling
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This would be a great question for Elohimfest....
You've got me thinking Sky... after all the jeherrin themselves could be wrong...
I think this is something we should get cleared up... or I wont be able to sleep nights... oh, wait, I NEVER sleep nights!
-B
You've got me thinking Sky... after all the jeherrin themselves could be wrong...
I think this is something we should get cleared up... or I wont be able to sleep nights... oh, wait, I NEVER sleep nights!
-B
"Fortunate circumstances do not equate to high ideals."
"Mostly muffins sir."- My answer in response to the question posed by the officer, "Son, do you have anything on you I should know about?"
His response: "Holy $&!^. He's not kidding! Look at all these muffins!"
"Mostly muffins sir."- My answer in response to the question posed by the officer, "Son, do you have anything on you I should know about?"
His response: "Holy $&!^. He's not kidding! Look at all these muffins!"
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Loredoctor
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Excellent points, Baradakas! I agree!Baradakas wrote:If Sky is right, we may not see this redemption until the Third Chrons. The inevitable changes caused by the Staff could not be foreseen in the last novel. However, I am convinced that Foamfollower was the Pure One. The jeherrin themselves state that a Giant redeemed them, and that is why they help the company at the end of TWL.
The Urviles have been attempting to change themselves for millenia in thier breeding dens... perhaps the whole reason they served the Despiser was to gain the lore neccessary to accomplish the end of thier Wurd.
Just more thoughts...
-B
Waddley wrote:your Highness Sir Dr. Loredoctor, PhD, Esq, the Magnificent, First of his name, Second Cousin of Dragons, White-Gold-Plate Wielder!
