Mhoram and the Staff of Law

[Nekrimah]

If Covenant hadn't raped Lena, and just delivered the message to Prothall, and the Quest retrieve the Staff of Law...

If Elena hadn't been born, Mhoram would have been High Lord in the Illearth War, and wield the Staff of Law, and the Krill of Loric...

It seems a lot of Foul's machinations hinged on Covenant getting Lena pregnant.

[Fist and Faith]

Probably not. Foul just used what was available to him. Just because it's so easy for a powerful, evil being to use a rape to accomplish his own ends, doesn't mean he couldn't have used whatever had happened if the rape never took place.

And Foul wasn't the only one to gain from it all. Elena learned anundivian yajna. Mhoram learned a gigantic lesson from the sculpture, allowing him to defeat samadhi.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Covenant would have been a lot more militant in his Unbelief and uninvolvement if this was what happened. The whole Lena-rape / Elena / Lena-madness guilted him into defending the Land.

Without action there's no responsibility.

[Holsety]

Covenant would have been a lot more militant in his Unbelief and uninvolvement if this was what happened. The whole Lena-rape / Elena / Lena-madness guilted him into defending the Land.

Without action there's no responsibility.

I disagree. Prior to Lena, his unbelief was just a fancy that struck him in Mithil Stonedown - even though he believed he was in a dream, he wasn't as stressed about the pressure being put on him - and there was pressure without Lena, in the similarity he held to Berek Halfhand and his white gold ring. He even has a thought, I think as he's approaching Mithil Stonedown, that the dream that he believes the Land to be will allow him to recover in some way, in the real world, from the blight of leprosy - not so much physically as mentally. The rape of Lena actually set him off against accepting the reality of the land, and I think his denial of the reality of the land was an attempt to get away from what he did to Lena. This is also supported by the Ranyhyn coming to him - the bargains he makes were an attempt to treat with his dream and keep it off his back as much as possible.

[Orlion]

Covenant would have been a lot more militant in his Unbelief and uninvolvement if this was what happened. The whole Lena-rape / Elena / Lena-madness guilted him into defending the Land.

Without action there's no responsibility.

I disagree. Prior to Lena, his unbelief was just a fancy that struck him in Mithil Stonedown - even though he believed he was in a dream, he wasn't as stressed about the pressure being put on him - and there was pressure without Lena, in the similarity he held to Berek Halfhand and his white gold ring. He even has a thought, I think as he's approaching Mithil Stonedown, that the dream that he believes the Land to be will allow him to recover in some way, in the real world, from the blight of leprosy - not so much physically as mentally. The rape of Lena actually set him off against accepting the reality of the land, and I think his denial of the reality of the land was an attempt to get away from what he did to Lena. This is also supported by the Ranyhyn coming to him - the bargains he makes were an attempt to treat with his dream and keep it off his back as much as possible.

I think he really starts with his unbelief once he finds out he can feel pain again. At first, it was a quaint dream, but with the 'illusion' of regenerated nerves, he found himself in a maddening nightmare.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Covenant would have been a lot more militant in his Unbelief and uninvolvement if this was what happened. The whole Lena-rape / Elena / Lena-madness guilted him into defending the Land.

Without action there's no responsibility.

I disagree. Prior to Lena, his unbelief was just a fancy that struck him in Mithil Stonedown - even though he believed he was in a dream, he wasn't as stressed about the pressure being put on him - and there was pressure without Lena, in the similarity he held to Berek Halfhand and his white gold ring. He even has a thought, I think as he's approaching Mithil Stonedown, that the dream that he believes the Land to be will allow him to recover in some way, in the real world, from the blight of leprosy - not so much physically as mentally. The rape of Lena actually set him off against accepting the reality of the land, and I think his denial of the reality of the land was an attempt to get away from what he did to Lena. This is also supported by the Ranyhyn coming to him - the bargains he makes were an attempt to treat with his dream and keep it off his back as much as possible.

Really? That's not how I read it. It's a bit hard disassociating Lena from Covenant story arc in the Land. She's there practically from the start. You assume he's disbelief in the Land is caused by his guilt over her but it could just as easily be connected to the passage of time in the Land for him. If you were right I'd think Covenant would think about her more. Instead what's bothering him is the captivating beauty of the Land which makes his own reality pale into unimportance thereby dooming to death by gangrene.

On another level your interpretation renders his disease unimportant to the story. Why have the disease at all if the central theme is about a recluse who is driven by his guilt over rape?

[Holsety]

Covenant would have been a lot more militant in his Unbelief and uninvolvement if this was what happened. The whole Lena-rape / Elena / Lena-madness guilted him into defending the Land.

Without action there's no responsibility.

I disagree. Prior to Lena, his unbelief was just a fancy that struck him in Mithil Stonedown - even though he believed he was in a dream, he wasn't as stressed about the pressure being put on him - and there was pressure without Lena, in the similarity he held to Berek Halfhand and his white gold ring. He even has a thought, I think as he's approaching Mithil Stonedown, that the dream that he believes the Land to be will allow him to recover in some way, in the real world, from the blight of leprosy - not so much physically as mentally. The rape of Lena actually set him off against accepting the reality of the land, and I think his denial of the reality of the land was an attempt to get away from what he did to Lena. This is also supported by the Ranyhyn coming to him - the bargains he makes were an attempt to treat with his dream and keep it off his back as much as possible.

Really? That's not how I read it. It's a bit hard disassociating Lena from Covenant story arc in the Land. She's there practically from the start. You assume he's disbelief in the Land is caused by his guilt over her but it could just as easily be connected to the passage of time in the Land for him. If you were right I'd think Covenant would think about her more. Instead what's bothering him is the captivating beauty of the Land which makes his own reality pale into unimportance thereby dooming to death by gangrene.

On another level your interpretation renders his disease unimportant to the story. Why have the disease at all if the central theme is about a recluse who is driven by his guilt over rape?

For the first question, it isn't actually Covenant's contemplation of Lena so much as his refusal to think about her - if you want me to, I'm pretty sure I can fetch quotes from Lord Foul's Bane where he concentrates solely on the journey in front of him because he's decided he can't afford to contemplate what he's done.

I guess I should say one thing, however...my disagreement was centered at one point in the book, but it was stupid to disagree generally. Eventually, chiefly in TPTP (after he feels guilty about what happened with Elena), he changes and becomes more focused on righting the wrongs he sees himself as responsible for. Though then he goes through another change where he acknowledges that he wasn't the only acting force in the land and he isn't solely responsible for what went on. This initially causes him to decide to flee the land, but after defeating the shade of Elena he changes his viewpoint again and decides to fight for the land.

[alanm]

I argued this point sometime ago. The rape of Lena is the most significant act in the series and TCs remorse and trying to undo what had been done makes the whole of the first 2 series.

[Linna Heartbooger]

I argued this point sometime ago. The rape of Lena is the most significant act in the series and TCs remorse and trying to undo what had been done makes the whole of the first 2 series.

[Nekrimah]

Just starting on The Power That Preserves...

I think TC's Unbelief collapses in the third book partly because he isn't healed of leprosy upon arrival this time, and even retains the wounds he got from this world for quite a while, until the Unfettered One of Morinmoss heals him. I just got to that chapter so I'm not sure if the Unfettered One has healed the leprosy too.

So he's in the same state as he was from this world, there's no "nerves don't regenerate" protest, he loses the biggest objection he has.

[Holsety]

I'm not completely sure that being in the condition he was in in the real world while in the Land is really a deal-breaker for his unbelief...one would expect the real world to be able to affect a dream conjured up by one's subconscious, because the subconscious can take the changes the real world inflicts into account. It's only if the land is able to reach out and affect Covenant outside of his mental processes, as it seems to when the Creator intervenes on his behalf at the end of TPTP, that its reality is validated.

[Arkade]

Covenant's unbelief is rooted in his leprosy. He can't accept the Land as real because everything it offers is a danger to him. Everything defies the law of leprosy. He knows he's going to return to his own world at some point and, if he gives in to the seductions of the Land, he won't be able to live as a leper anymore in the real world. He'll die.

In the third book, he goes after Foul initially because he is angry. Angry at Foul and at himself. Guilt is a part of it, but eventually he realizes that it isn't the answer. In the end, it is his love for the Land that makes the difference.

[Sherman Landlearner]

Just starting on The Power That Preserves...

I think TC's Unbelief collapses in the third book partly because he isn't healed of leprosy upon arrival this time, and even retains the wounds he got from this world for quite a while, until the Unfettered One of Morinmoss heals him. I just got to that chapter so I'm not sure if the Unfettered One has healed the leprosy too.

So he's in the same state as he was from this world, there's no "nerves don't regenerate" protest, he loses the biggest objection he has.

I kinda disagree. I think it's more to do with a sort of, "Why bother?" attitude. Since he isn't healed, he can't afford to lose focus, or he'll die. His unhealed state merely reinforces his leprosy disciplines, which a large part of them is "Don't care. Emotions must be squashed. Or I'll lose focus, and die." So, when he was healed, he could forget a bit, but now... He's doomed.

[Running Amok]

Covenant's unbelief is rooted in his leprosy. He can't accept the Land as real because everything it offers is a danger to him. Everything defies the law of leprosy. He knows he's going to return to his own world at some point and, if he gives in to the seductions of the Land, he won't be able to live as a leper anymore in the real world. He'll die.

This is the start of it, but I think it goes deeper than this. Covenant's problem is that he's internalized what experts in the treatment of Hansen's disease call leprosy stigma - feelings of shame and guilt associated with being a leper. That is what Lord Foul is. He demonstrates this constantly throughout the chronicles. The "Laws of Leprosy," as he's been convinced they mean, require that he survive at the cost of what boils down to his essential humanity - hopes, dreams, ideals. He reinterates again and again that these are luxuries that he as a leper cannot afford if he wants to survive. These factors have led him to believe that he is something less than human. When he is "cured" of his leprosy upon his entrance to the land, his first action is the most inhuman act of which a man is capable - he rapes Lena. The overwhelming surge of feeling he experiences upon the cure is only part of why he does this. He's internalized so much self hatred and denied himself so much humanity that given the potency and power to act, he acts out his own internal self concept - he desecrates the very beauty and kindness that lent him such potency in the first place. Thus is insistant refusal to accept any kind of responsibility or power of any kind until the end. This is a recurring theme throughout the chronicles.

The story could not have been told as it had been if he'd simply proceeded to Revelstone without having raped Lena. That act is definative of what the Chronicles are all about. If it hadn't happened, this would be a very different, and I think much weaker story.

[dlbpharmd]

[Sherman Landlearner]

Agreed, definitely