Linden Avery Blues

[Mr.Land]

Is anyone else a little bothered by the fact that in The Last Chronicles Linden seems to have slipped back into old self-loathing ways? I understand that she would feel guilty and torn apart over the kidnapping of her son, but she seems to have lost all the healing and self-enlightenment that she learned in The Second Chronicles. Whereas Covenant continues to grow, Linden instead backslides. Perhaps this is human nature, but it's frustrating to see her continually wallow in self-despair.

Cmon' girl, it's not the end of the world. Oh wait it is.

[Vraith]

Not trying to be dismissive, but this is discussed in many other threads...
There are a fair number of people who agree with what you said.
I think they're full of hooey. I've gone on about it a lot, but I'll short-hand it here with a new analogy: say you're an athlete, one win doesn't make you a winner, one loss doesn't make you a loser, but the things that contribute to either require you to face, practice, and struggle with them over, and over, and over, forever.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

No, on the contrary. I felt it was entirely realistic for her to happen. There's this thing about self-hatred and sodden reliance: once a person has been so trodden down that he or she has established a firm notion of their own worthlessness (due to school bullying, loss of a loved one, broken family, you name it...), it usually always remains as a shadow within their consciousness, even when they gradually might've gained a state of happiness due to more favorable circumstances. In some cases, it doesn't take comparably lot to trigger the 'old darkness', and this may revert a person to the former wreck or worse, to the point that all their positive interests and qualities wither.

[shadowbinding shoe]

No, on the contrary. I felt it was entirely realistic for her to happen. There's this thing about self-hatred and sodden reliance: once a person has been so trodden down that he or she has established a firm notion of their own worthlessness (due to school bullying, loss of a loved one, broken family, you name it...), it usually always remains as a shadow within their consciousness, even when they gradually might've gained a state of happiness due to more favorable circumstances. In some cases, it doesn't take comparably lot to trigger the 'old darkness', and this may revert a person to the former wreck or worse, to the point that all their positive interests and qualities wither.

Les Miserables has a good portrayal of this

[earthbrah]

And remember that the ten years Linden spent in the "real" world left her soft and untoughened for the trials of the Land. And while that lack of toughness was specific to her physical plight at the very beginning of her journey in the Land in these Last Chronicles, one could easily argue that the same lack of toughness could apply to her mental and emotional bodies as well.

[wayfriend]

I think this is a pretty good question, Mr. Land. I've considered this very question for some time. And it seems to me that the "slipped back" idea is one of those answers that is appealing because it is quick and easy, but which doesn't bear up under much scrutiny.

In the Second Chronicles, Linden suffered from "black moods", which were a fear of being ineffectual and inconsequential. She doesn't suffer from that in the Last Chronicles.

In the Second Chronicles, Linden lusted after power as a cure for her feelings of helplessness, because she felt as if she had none. In the Last Chronicles, Linden has all the power she needs.

In the Second Chronicles, Linden was intimidated by Ravers and the Sunbane and evil. In the Final Chronicles, she is not.

In the Chronicles, things proceed in stages. It's sort of like going up levels in a game. If you follow Covenant from the first to the Second Chronicles, you can see this.

To paraphrase and lack justice: In the first Chronicles, his trials were to accept power and responsibility. In the Second Chronicles, he had accomplished all that. He then had to face a new set of trials, a set of trials that you don't get to until you get passed the first ones. He accepted all the power and the responsibility, but then had to deal with his power being insufficient, and his responsibility being insufficient. He finally matched his trials when he learned to share power and responsibility.

Linden, in the Final Chronicles, is also in the next stage. She faces a new set of trials that could not have happened until the first ones were faced and passed.

Now Linden has all the power and decisiveness that she desired in the Second Chronicles. She does not lack in any way in being effectual and consequential. Now she's learning all about being in the "hot seat". She's making decisions ... and dealing with the consequences of them. She's being torn between fidelity to her loves and fidelity to the Land, and is faced with the trials of deciding between them.

Just look at the chapter we are dissecting now. Linden is giving up on making decisions. She thinks the consequences of all her choices were wrong, and so she's willfully not making them any more. This is the exact opposite of Linden in the Second Chronicles. Then, she frequently bemoaned that she had no power, and so could only follow Covenant, and he was the one who got to lead, who got to be effective.

I think, when it comes to Linden, that it's easy to consider one personal dilemma the same as another. She's whining then, she's whining now, right? But this can only come from not looking closely. I don't disagree that there are similarities, but this as I said comes from the fat that Linden is still who she is, and she's reached a new level with new trials which are the extensions of the trials she had previously overcome.

[shadowbinding shoe]

I think this is a pretty good question, Mr. Land. I've considered this very question for some time. And it seems to me that the "slipped back" idea is one of those answers that is appealing because it is quick and easy, but which doesn't bear up under much scrutiny.

In the Second Chronicles, Linden suffered from "black moods", which were a fear of being ineffectual and inconsequential. She doesn't suffer from that in the Last Chronicles.

In the Second Chronicles, Linden lusted after power as a cure for her feelings of helplessness, because she felt as if she had none. In the Last Chronicles, Linden has all the power she needs.

In the Second Chronicles, Linden was intimidated by Ravers and the Sunbane and evil. In the Final Chronicles, she is not.

In the Chronicles, things proceed in stages. It's sort of like going up levels in a game. If you follow Covenant from the first to the Second Chronicles, you can see this.

To paraphrase and lack justice: In the first Chronicles, his trials were to accept power and responsibility. In the Second Chronicles, he had accomplished all that. He then had to face a new set of trials, a set of trials that you don't get to until you get passed the first ones. He accepted all the power and the responsibility, but then had to deal with his power being insufficient, and his responsibility being insufficient. He finally matched his trials when he learned to share power and responsibility.

Linden, in the Final Chronicles, is also in the next stage. She faces a new set of trials that could not have happened until the first ones were faced and passed.

Now Linden has all the power and decisiveness that she desired in the Second Chronicles. She does not lack in any way in being effectual and consequential. Now she's learning all about being in the "hot seat". She's making decisions ... and dealing with the consequences of them. She's being torn between fidelity to her loves and fidelity to the Land, and is faced with the trials of deciding between them.

Just look at the chapter we are dissecting now. Linden is giving up on making decisions. She thinks the consequences of all her choices were wrong, and so she's willfully not making them any more. This is the exact opposite of Linden in the Second Chronicles. Then, she frequently bemoaned that she had no power, and so could only follow Covenant, and he was the one who got to lead, who got to be effective.

I think, when it comes to Linden, that it's easy to consider one personal dilemma the same as another. She's whining then, she's whining now, right? But this can only come from not looking closely. I don't disagree that there are similarities, but this as I said comes from the fat that Linden is still who she is, and she's reached a new level with new trials which are the extensions of the trials she had previously overcome.

Did Covenant graduate the second level? I always felt there was a failure on his part in that trilogy. He was supposed to be the teacher that guides Linden (and the others to a lesser extent) to self realization and victory and instead he concentrated on being an actor like he was the last time. He couldn't see the self worth of guiding others. He wanted to matter more than he wanted to be of service.

For me the solution presented in that Chronicle was the compromise everyone had to make to enable him to go down this path and not the way things were supposed to go. Linden's weakness was a testament to his failure. Moreso, his death was another one. He could only allow Linden her (5 minutes) of glory in the spotlight by killing himself.

(Please don't kill me, TC fans)

[Mr.Land]

Thanks for the comments. Okay, so Linden succeeds in overcoming obstacles (internal and external) in the 2nd Chronicles which allows herself to face a new stage of obstacles in the Last Chronicles. I can buy that. It just seems that her son Jeremiah would be paramount. If he's still being held by Roger than Linden won't rest until he's safe. And if she's rescued him then everything else pales in comparison.

[wayfriend]

Mr.Land, all I can say is, I believe sincerely that Donaldson intends you to have this apprehension.

[Vraith]

Thanks for the comments. Okay, so Linden succeeds in overcoming obstacles (internal and external) in the 2nd Chronicles which allows herself to face a new stage of obstacles in the Last Chronicles. I can buy that. It just seems that her son Jeremiah would be paramount. If he's still being held by Roger than Linden won't rest until he's safe. And if she's rescued him then everything else pales in comparison.

you've got your finger on an essential point here, I think. Last time she had to learn how to give a shit because of her background. And she did. Now there are two things that she absolutely can't live without cuz she learned the lesson, she loves, she cares so much for both, and a trap has been set in an attempt to force her to choose one or the other. Tough enough by itself. What makes it worse is if she does choose one or the other, then she's making exactly the same black decision that made her the wreck of a human being she was when we first met her, only more so. As I must have said many times...she hasn't regressed, the risks and costs have multiplied, and those risks and costs matter more to everyone, including herself.

EDITED to add: And I don't think Jerry is saved yet, he may, I speculate, be in some ways more vulnerable than before.

[wayfriend]

BTW, it's worth mentioning that, in AATE, Covenant says, "Sometimes we have to do things that are more important than saving the world." Think on that, I submit.

[Zarathustra]

Cmon' girl, it's not the end of the world. Oh wait it is.

I'm not really bothered by it. No one seemed to have been bothered that Covenant still had personal challenges to overcome in the 2nd Chrons. It would be unrealistic to think that any of us ever really solve our character flaws completely. We learn to deal with them in new contexts. I think she had forgiven herself and healed for what happened in the past, but new challenges have arisen to trigger some of her old personality traits (losing Covenant, then bringing him back "broken"). Perhaps some of her angst is exactly the same feelings you feel: frustration with herself because she thought she was "over that."

Also, it shows that much of her ability to heal herself came from her relationship with Covenant. Maybe that's "pathetic," in a way, to think that she can't do it on her own ... but as you say, that's human nature. It shows how much we're dependent upon each other, and how much of ourselves are tied up in others.

Cutting herself seemed over the top, I have to admit. But my problems with AATE are definitely not the character development ... it's the pacing, story-telling, and narrative.

In the Second Chronicles, Linden suffered from "black moods", which were a fear of being ineffectual and inconsequential. She doesn't suffer from that in the Last Chronicles.

In the Second Chronicles, Linden lusted after power as a cure for her feelings of helplessness, because she felt as if she had none. In the Last Chronicles, Linden has all the power she needs.

I think that's an important distinction, and I largely agree, but it's not entirely accurate. Her black moods came from feeling ineffectual/powerless with regards to her father, but in regards to her mother, it was her own actions which bother her. Granted, killing her mom was probably driven by her feeling of helplessness because she couldn't save her. But she was definitely not "ineffectual." It was her effect, her action that bothered her. Or more precisely, her response to her own powerlessnesss.

And that has continued with the LC. Because she doesn't want to be powerless/ineffectual, she strives for as much power as she can get. But now she's worried that what she does with that power--like what she did to her mother--is wrong, misguided, destructive. She hurt her mother, and she has "hurt" Covenant (bringing him back "broken"). So it's a continuum of the same character traits, without a clear dividing line.

[I'm Murrin]

Even in the very final scenes of the Second Chronicles, Linden was unable to approach things in a way that indicated she was healed. She tried to possess Covenant. He showed her the mistake she was making, and she was ashamed of herself for it, but the underlying flaws that led her to attempt it in the first place were still present. Her healing of the Land actually reinforced some of them: It gave a demonstration of power, her power, independant of Covenant, and that reinforced this problem she has of not trusting others to share her burdens. She learned to trust Covenant that way, but not others. Healing Pitchwife non-consensually was almost as much a violation as the possession.

In the Last Chronicles, she continues to act this way: Refusing to share her plans with others, trying to keep her despair to herself. If she had told Liand and Stave what she intended in Fatal Revenant, they would have perhaps had misgivings, but may still have helped her to achieve it. She still acts as though she can know best, as though the choices and the consequences are both hers to bear alone.

Where Covenant denied the Land by refusing to acknowledge its reality, Linden denies it by refusing to grant it responsibility. Liand's purpose in the story is to oppose this side of her, by continually reminding her that there are people who will help, that can share the burden - and his death is a demonstration that Linden cannot bear the consequences alone, either. She still hasn't learned, yet.

Her staff, her ring, her healing needed to fix the Land. Did the Land need her before the Sunbane? Wayfriend's got a good point, I think. Covenant learned to tell where he was needed more by the start of The Power that Preserves.

[shadowbinding shoe]

In the Second Chronicles, Linden suffered from "black moods", which were a fear of being ineffectual and inconsequential. She doesn't suffer from that in the Last Chronicles.

In the Second Chronicles, Linden lusted after power as a cure for her feelings of helplessness, because she felt as if she had none. In the Last Chronicles, Linden has all the power she needs.

I think that's an important distinction, and I largely agree, but it's not entirely accurate. Her black moods came from feeling ineffectual/powerless with regards to her father, but in regards to her mother, it was her own actions which bother her. Granted, killing her mom was probably driven by her feeling of helplessness because she couldn't save her. But she was definitely not "ineffectual." It was her effect, her action that bothered her. Or more precisely, her response to her own powerlessnesss.

And that has continued with the LC. Because she doesn't want to be powerless/ineffectual, she strives for as much power as she can get. But now she's worried that what she does with that power--like what she did to her mother--is wrong, misguided, destructive. She hurt her mother, and she has "hurt" Covenant (bringing him back "broken"). So it's a continuum of the same character traits, without a clear dividing line.

That's a good point. I haven't thought about it from that perspective.

[wayfriend]

It certainly makes sense that if you're planning for the Final Chronicles while you're writing the Second Chronicles, you might want give Linden a personal issue that doesn't fully resolve until the Final one.

[Darkdenubis]

It certainly makes sense that if you're planning for the Final Chronicles while you're writing the Second Chronicles, you might want give Linden a personal issue that doesn't fully resolve until the Final one.

Or maybe SRD is simply taking perverse pleasure in tormenting his readers by inflicting upon them a character so self-centered, whiny, unlikable and downright irritating that we end up rooting for Lord Foul to win