The Creation of the Bane

[largo]

Can someone help me out here? My understanding is that Esmer and Kastenessen created the Bane, which is the source of Kevin's Dirt, and that Kevin's Dirt has been in the Land for about 500-1000 years. But didn't Kastenessen only slip his bonds recently, like half a generation ago? How could he have created Kevin's Dirt while still in the Durance? Or am I misremembering something?

[dlbpharmd]

The Bane (SWMNBN) is a being as old as Foul and the Creator. Esmer and Kast used her as a source of power for the Dirt, and IIRC, it was created about 100 years prior to Linden's return to the Land.

[Cambo]

I don't remember exactly, but surely it would have to be much longer than 100 years for the people of the Land to forget all about healthsense, even with the Masters discouraging the telling of tales. The loss of something that integral would surely be felt for more than a couple of generations.

[largo]

The Bane (SWMNBN) is a being as old as Foul and the Creator. Esmer and Kast used her as a source of power for the Dirt, and IIRC, it was created about 100 years prior to Linden's return to the Land.

The caesures have been in the Land for about 100 years, but I'm pretty sure Kevin's Dirt was estimated in ROTE to have been in place a much longer time (500-1000 years is what I recall).

My real question is how did Kastenessen use the Bane, as you say, to help Esmer create the Dirt while he was in his Durance?

[Savor Dam]

How was She used to help create the Dirt, whether Kastenessen was in or out of his Durance?

Therein lies the story, I suspect.
We must all Read And Find Out.

Patience...

[SGuilfoyle1966]

How, in this story about time travel gone awry, was Kastenessan able to do something while he was in the Elohim lockup?
I can't figure it.

[Orlion]

How, in this story about time travel gone awry, was Kastenessan able to do something while he was in the Elohim lockup?
I can't figure it.

Just because you're in lock up doesn't mean you're completely ineffectual. I mean, Foul seems to somehow be able to influence people int he real world despite being trapped beneath the Arch of Time.

Also, a current characteristic of the Bane is a sort of forgetfulness of who she is... I imagine it's this characteristic that is utilized to make Kevin's Dirt. Frankly, I think Kevin's Dirt is the result of Kassy trying to remove this forgetfulness rather than the aim... his girlfriend was devoured by SHE after all.

[Ur Dead]

Kastenessan may have been in a state of slipping thru his durance when Anele was first taken by the ceasure.
That would be about 3200 years before Linden arrived.
Keven's dirt may be after but it may have been a slow process in creating. This would account for nobody remembering about Earthpower.
It may that Foul slipped a word or two to Kastenessan or
Elsmer how how to create it and what would be the source to power Kevin's Dirt.

[shadowbinding shoe]

From what I remember Esmer says one of the Ravers gave Kast and him the idea and method for making the Dirt. Whether this means he's the mastermind or just the messenger boy for Foul is anyone's guess.

I haven't thought about it before but what do you feel when you're broken hearted and have unrequited love? Doesn't the food taste like ashes? Doesn't the sky look colorless and leaden?Isn't the joy and purpose robbed out of the world and people around you?

[SkurjMaster]

Dear Watchers,

I'm sure that most or all of you have seen the spoiler post on the Gradual Interview (8/7/11) that discusses SWMNBN's name. I was going to make a separate thread, but this seemed to be the best place as some of it is connected to the things I am wondering about. The statement is that she really MUST NOT be named, and that in doing so the world (even reality itself) would be destroyed. But why is she different that the other super entities of the Land's cosmos? Does this fact put her on a par with the creator (whose name we really don't know)?

Foul's name was given to him by the inhabitants of the Land, among others given to him by the Ramen. Could he be named and thereby rend earth and time? If she remembers her name and disaster ensues, and if Foul has similar properties, what keeps him from simply uttering his own name? My guess is that Foul is an inferior being somehow. How will the name of SWMNBN play out in the final book? Her forgetfulness of her true name has to be intimately connected with the effect of the Dirt. The Dirt has made succeeding generations of Land dwellers forget their heritage.

Can anyone guess what makes her name so important?

[High Lord Tolkien]

I think it signifies TC? waking up.

Yes, I'm still a believer in the Land-verse is his dream theory.

[wayfriend]

As the asker of the GI question, I can say that I had hoped that Donaldson would say more about why he needed a being that destroys the world when you say her name. I mean, what part of the story does that enable?

I think the biggest mystery is: who would know her name to say it? I mean, no one can tell anyone what it is, right?

Has anyone seen the connection between SWMNBN and Covenant yet? (I just got into this forum today. So maybe this is old news.) I mean, Covenant was "reduced" by being removed from the Arch of Time and sent back to the Earth. He forgot a lot of what he knew because he could not fit it all into a physical self. So does this imply that SWMNBN was also somehow "reduced" by being put into the Earth? And one of the things that S forgot was her name?

If so, there's sort of an explanation there as to why reminding her of her name could be bad. She would be restored to a size that "would not fit" in the Earth.

There's also the question about why doesn't Foul say the name and break the Arch. Could be he doesn't know the name. Could be the same reason he hasn't roused the Worm.

And ... has anyone wondered if SWMNBN's name is "Worm of the World's End"? (Shh!)

[Zarathustra]

As the asker of the GI question, I can say that I had hoped that Donaldson would say more about why he needed a being that destroys the world when you say her name. I mean, what part of the story does that enable?

He has already foreshadowed this with the Insequent. Knowing True Names of people is a kind of power. And it's not just an arbitrary power to enable Linden to beat the Harrow in FR ... it's also a way to engage the reader by revealing connections and identities which we previously didn't suspect (like Theomach). I'm not sure if that answers your question, but it is "part of the story" which is enabled.

I think the biggest mystery is: who would know her name to say it? I mean, no one can tell anyone what it is, right?

Well, Covenant would know. If he remembers.

Has anyone seen the connection between SWMNBN and Covenant yet? (I just got into this forum today. So maybe this is old news.) I mean, Covenant was "reduced" by being removed from the Arch of Time and sent back to the Earth. He forgot a lot of what he knew because he could not fit it all into a physical self. So does this imply that SWMNBN was also somehow "reduced" by being put into the Earth? And one of the things that S forgot was her name?

If so, there's sort of an explanation there as to why reminding her of her name could be bad. She would be restored to a size that "would not fit" in the Earth.

Well, that is what SRD said:

If anyone ever does anything that restores her name to her, the resulting explosion could well destroy the Arch of Time. She is, after all, a being who belongs outside Time. Her essential nature is too *big* for temporal reality, with all of reality's laws and restrictions. Forgetting who she is is the only thing that keeps her contained.

So he has already said that it's an issue of "size" and being "contained." The only way to contain something that's too big for its container is to "compress" or "reduce" it.

Ultimately, we've got to admit that both levels of story are at play here: 1) revealing something readers don't know, which will reveal previously unguessed connections in the narrative that are character specific. 2) Revealing a character-specific connection that is "too big" for the Land's Earth to contain. The only thing I can imagine is "big" enough in both of those senses is someone--some her--from the Real World. That means Joan or Linden. I pick Joan, for reasons given elsewhere about people from the real world dying in the Land, and becoming "Larger." Hile Troy, for instance. Covenant, for instance. Who else from the Real World has died in the Land? Joan. That's her name. I'd bet all my White Gold Dollars!

Joan is also a person who needs to be reminded who she is. She's going to have to face herself. She's the only real-world character who hasn't had some kind of redemption. (Well, besides Roger, but I don't expect that to happen.)

[As for why SWMNBN was there prior to Joan's death in the Land, well, Joan's relationship with the Land has always been one that violated Time. That's been her chief danger all along.]

[Zarathustra]

Double post ... just wanted to say, good to see you around, WF. I've been curious about your take for some months. I think you'd find the SWMNBN thread interesting. Allow me to quote myself from that discussion:

Connecting the literal with its own metaphor would be a form of "naming" it (the metaphor, that is). That's why naming is important here. It reduces the ambiguity of the symbol into a distinct one-to-one relationship with the literal thing it symbolizes. Shebane, which for now is universal in her representation of Female Suffering, would be reduced to a single female. Donaldson is telling us that there really is a single woman whom She symbolizes, despite her universality as a symbol. That's a pretty big revelation; it's the first time he has acknowledged his own allegory within the text itself. (It is becoming self-referential ... which is ultimately the source of all paradox.)

In The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the literal is the real world (and its characters), while the metaphorical is the Land (and its characters). For She to realize that She is Joan would be comparable to shattering the Arch of Time, because it would collapse the distinction which is holding the real world and the Land separate. For most of the Chronicles, we could assume that the separation between the two worlds is metaphysical within the story itself, because of Covenant's Unbelief. But it is merely metaphorical, and all it would take for that to become an explict fact would be to admit it in the text ... in other words, to reveal that She's name is a character from the real world.

Vraith also had an amazing observation about the primary root/conflict of this series being the imposition of the Ideal into the real.

I think we're still in for some world-blurring, reality-blurring, level-blurring fun in the next book.

[Bill the Cat]

SWMNBN is love itself IMO. It seems Foul is the incarnation of despair and SWMNBN would be his opposite, love. And love that is betrayed is quite powerful, and that power is what was harnessed to make Kevin's Dirt.

[danlo]

Oh come on guys, everyone knows SWMNBN's real name: Megan Roman! (those dam lawyers are everywhere)

[Kkrouton]

I think the reason that SWMNBN cannot be named, is that she would remember who she really is. Manifesting that information would cause her to go on a rampage. She would seek revenge on Lord Foul, which is why Lord Foul doesn't just tell her what her name is. She is after all the "Mate of Might" and is probably just as powerful as the Creator. The battle between her and Lord Foul would probably shatter the Arch of Time. Lord Foul wants to shatter the Arch, but wants to do it without having to contend with a crazy goddess.

[Samnite]

Hi, folks. I just today finished AATE, and I naturally scurried to the internet to find someone to speak with. I find the Bane to be one of the most fascinating "characters" in the book.

I'm already losing my grip on the specifics (slipped into a fissure, I guess), but wasn't it one of the Humbled who flipped out when TC was about to give the Bane's name back to her in the Lost Deep?

To me, that's an unmistakable clue that TC was on the right track. The Masters are simply NEVER CORRECT about ultimate causes and consequences. They think they know things, but they're really children.

I think, in true Donaldson style, it will turn out that keeping her name from her is true Despite, and the only way to defang her is to give it back, a la TC giving Lord Foul the Ring.

[wayfriend]

Welcome to the Watch, Samnite. Please do introduce yourself over in the Summonsing forum, and you shall be well feted.

TC didn't seem to actually have the name - he asked Esmer to giver her her name. And Esmer was the one who flipped out in response to this.

Not that we trust Esmer's motives either. But he did say,

"No!" Esmer’s chagrin shook the ledge. Storms whipped alarm like foam from his eyes. "I cannot. I will not! Do you not grasp that her forgetting is necessary? It is imperative!

"Recall the convulsion which caused the rift of Landsdrop. It arose from Her imprisonment. Her betrayal and wrath and weeping as She was cast down sundered this region of the Earth to its foundations. If Her name is restored to Her - if She is enabled to remember - the result will be a cataclysm of such rage that it shatters the whole of Gravin Threndor.

"She will remain. I will depart. But you and all who accompany you will perish. Doubtless your son also will perish. Yet Kastenessen and a-Jeroth and the Ravers will endure. The skurj and the Sandgorgons and your former mate will endure. And the shattering of Mount Thunder will not slow the Worm of the World’s End."

[Samnite]

Aaaaahhhh! Damn it, I screwed up my very first post. Thanks for the correction. Esmer. Yes.

I still think one of the keys to the whole thing is going to be Naming the Bane. She could ALMOST be reasoned with for a second there, so it's obvious that her nature is not 100% blind destructiveness, and it seems terribly evil to just keep this multitudinous scorned woman all chained up in the kitchen, so to speak.