Worst book of the chronicles?

[shadowbinding shoe]

You know Peter, your stance is how a lot of writing efforts are inspired. Someone reads a book and at some point (even within a lone, standalone book) they say "What?! No! This is bullshit. It could have been soooo much better if only blah blah blah..." They may try to write a piece of fanfiction or they may try to write a piece of original fiction that realizes their ideas from their earlier rant. I think Donaldson said in an Q&A session that when he wrote the Chronicles he didn't want the meaning to be straightforward like in Lewis' Narnia books he read as a youngster. So Donaldson too had this state of mind to some degree.

[Vraith]

You know Peter, your stance is how a lot of writing efforts are inspired. Someone reads a book and at some point (even within a lone, standalone book) they say "What?! No! This is bullshit.

That is an excellent point. Just thought I'd give props, cuz the other direction [writing cuz you love what/how someone does it] already gets its notice. Not that one can't do both even at the same time...I think SRD speaks to that as well.

[peter]

(Aside.... surely SRD must be aware that the Narnia Chronicles are being argued over to this day in the halls of academia as to their underlying meaning. A book was published I think only last year that claimed to have finally solved the riddle of Narnia - the answer being that each book pertains to a particular planet in the solar system. it is unnaceptable to many people that C S Lewis - a meticulous perfectionist in all things - would have written a work so full of 'holes' and logical inconsistency as these books are unless there was a much deeper underlying purpose in so doing. People who knew him well say it just does not fit with his charachter, while the bequeathing to posterity of a 'puzzle' to be solved after his demise is entierly consistent to his nature.)

[Holsety]

(Aside.... surely SRD must be aware that the Narnia Chronicles are being argued over to this day in the halls of academia as to their underlying meaning. A book was published I think only last year that claimed to have finally solved the riddle of Narnia - the answer being that each book pertains to a particular planet in the solar system. it is unnaceptable to many people that C S Lewis - a meticulous perfectionist in all things - would have written a work so full of 'holes' and logical inconsistency as these books are unless there was a much deeper underlying purpose in so doing. People who knew him well say it just does not fit with his charachter, while the bequeathing to posterity of a 'puzzle' to be solved after his demise is entierly consistent to his nature.)

(While I don't deny the possibility there is a deep meaning, humans are not perfect just because they strive for perfection, and I don't think his personality is a great way of justifying something on this scale about the books. We shouldn't make assumptions about the quality of the text based on something that isn't even a part of it.

I haven't read the Chronicles of Narnia since I was very small, however, so I don't know what the holes might be or what the problems are (except that the animals talk ).)

[Ananda]

I think my least favourite was the one tree. I like Linden, but for me, it was just a bit too much sitting on the boat in Linden's head (at least that's how I felt this last summer when i read it again for the first time since the '80s). Next least favourite was lord foul's bane. It was very formulaic and a lot of the world elements seemed heavily influenced by Tolkien. And horses with stars on their heads?? I was a teenaged girl when I first read it and, of course I liked horses, but stars on their heads was a bit much, even for me then! Good thing he wrote more books after lfb. And, I'm glad someone had given me all three at once or, after reading the first, I'd have never gotten the next ones which turned out to be a lot more fun.

[peter]

I was fortunate to read Donalson before Tolkein - I doubt I would have gotten to grips with TLOTR had the ground not been pre-prepared by the Chrons. The selling line on my first copy of LFB was 'Comparable to Tolkein at his best' and I don't think (for a change) this was a lie. For me the First Chrons (LFB included) has always had the edge on TLOTR, though I fully accept that this would be contested by many.

As I have said before, the idea of a 'worst book' in Chrons 1 and 2 is anathema to me. The thread should receive 500 lashes and then be burned at the stake before brealfast!

[francois60]

I agree about One Tree. One tree was a tour de force in that it was a tour of a large part of the Earth that we've never seen but have heard about, and it's certainly eventful. But the downside was that it involved too many events that were just painful to slog through. Reading the One tree made me realize how much I prefer the Land as the setting.

[Linna Heartbooger]

But the downside was that it involved too many events that were just painful to slog through.

I SO much agree. So painful. And in so many places... places which are both mind-bending and having characteristics and inhabitants that just make me mad.

Perhaps a little like culture-shock; perhaps not that bad.

HAH!! Linna!! Strongbad in your sig brought back memories...I haven't been check'n m-email in so long, I'm gonna head over there. Computer over, virus=very yes.

Excellent, excellent. Carry on!

Your head asplode!

[Holsety]

On the subject of Strongbad, I am still upset that they never finished "Stinkoman 20XD6." That was a pretty fun platformer with nice tunes, even unfinished probably the crowning achievement of their games section.

[Ananda]

I loved strongbad's techno song.

[Linna Heartbooger]

On the subject of Strongbad...

What have I done?!?!? This was a perfectly good, serious, interesting thread.
People were SHARING about things significant to them and RELEVANT to the books!

What can I possibly do to stem the tide of off-topic posting?!?
I know!
Here's the StrongBad thread I just made on GenDisc.

Please return to your regularly-scheduled AWESOME. [on-topic discussion]

[Orlion]

This thread has a silly premise, so I'm locking it

[shadowbinding shoe]

Looks open to me...

I don't why so many people dislike the One Tree. It's good to see new things and widen our Land horizons. The plot was good, I liked the various characters. What's not to like? I for one really liked it. More than White Gold Wielder in fact (too depressing with the Land being annihilated beyond any chance of preserving.)

Is it because I started reading these books after all 6 books were already published?

[ussusimiel]

I don't why so many people dislike the One Tree. It's good to see new things and widen our Land horizons. The plot was good, I liked the various characters. What's not to like? I for one really liked it....

Is it because I started reading these books after all 6 books were already published?

I'm with you in regard to the One Tree, I always enjoy starting that book, the feeling of openness, the Giants, the dromond, the knowledge that we're going to see new places. Brilliant! It may be my favourite after TIW and LFB. Because it's a middle book there is also a sense that the pace doesn't need to be rushed.

We get to meet the Elohim, the Bhrathair, Nom, Nicor of the Deep, Merewives and spend a huge amount of time among the Giants (which is great because we really got to find out very little about them in the 1st Chronicles). We get to see the One Tree (an excellent episode, IMO) and experience the Soulbiter. Many of the things Amok mentioned in TIW flow naturally into the story and give a nice sense of continuity and extension to the world of the Land. It's a very visual and cinematic book with a nice mixture of pacing.

I understand the feeling of loss at the absence of the Land in the story, but for me it's a relief as the Land is under such assault from the Sunbane (this may be one of the reasons I also struggle a bit with TPTP). But the need to leave the Land blends very naturally with the plot and it never even ocurred to me ('til just now) how SRD could have structured the story so that Covenant could have stayed in the Land for the whole of the 2nd Chrons.

u.

[Ananda]

I liked seeing the new places too. The thing that dragged it down for me was the lengthy bits on the boat stuck in Lindens head.

[ussusimiel]

I liked seeing the new places too. The thing that dragged it down for me was the lengthy bits on the boat stuck in Lindens head.

*whispers* Could I interest you in THOOLAH, it sounds as if you already have a solid grounding in the basic requirements

Although I am a card-carrying member of THOOLAH I would have to grudgingly admit that Linden wasn't a problem for me in the 2nd Chrons. All of the internal stuff seemed to have a real purpose and we are essentially being drip-fed parts of Linden's backstory to maintain our suspense regarding our judgement (like the Haruchai) of her character. It is well done, IMO, and by the end of TOT I am always happy with Linden.

u.

[Vraith]

I liked seeing the new places too. The thing that dragged it down for me was the lengthy bits on the boat stuck in Lindens head.

I never understand this criticism and the related ones.
Actually, strike that, I understand it as a matter of taste/preference.
I don't understand it as an objective problem...whereas I do see the elimination of Linden's internals [hell, go ahead eliminate Linden...] as an objective problem.
This is how I see it from the most all-encompassing point of view: without this internal stuff, the entirety of the chronicles is just "Shanarra" books with the good bits taken out [if there were any really good bits].
Take away that stuff and "Soulbiter" is just another ship in some nasty weather. whoop de doo.
If I were really ambitious and determined, I'd go and make a list of all the things peeps have said they loved and how they'd be dead/meaningless/cliche without the things they say they hate [like linden and her so called whining].

[ussusimiel]

I liked seeing the new places too. The thing that dragged it down for me was the lengthy bits on the boat stuck in Lindens head.

I never understand this criticism and the related ones.
Actually, strike that, I understand it as a matter of taste/preference.

We're probably never going to agree about this, Vraith (and remember, I don't have a problem with Linden in the first two Chrons ), but I think a fair argument can be made from an objective standpoint. I came across a good post a while back that highlights some of the issues as I see them. (For anyone who hasn't read FR be careful of spoilers.)

Spoiler

(link)

This is part of the post:

Here is an example. The first paragraph of WGW:

Awkward without its midmast, Starfare's Gem turned heavily toward the north, putting its stern to the water clogged with with sand and foam which marked the passing of the One Tree. In the rigging, Giants labored and fumbled at their tasks, driven from line to line by the hoarse goad of Sevinhand's commands, even though Seadreamer lay dead on the deck below them. The Anchormaster stood, lean and rue-bitten, on the wheeldeck and yelled up at them, his voice raw with suppressed pain. If any compliance lagged, the Storesmaster, Galewrath, seconded him, throwing her shout after his like a piece of ragged granite because all the Search had come to ruin and she did not know any other way to bear it. The dromond went north simply to put distance between itself and the deep grave of its hope.

Now, what a piece of writing. It resonates with the utter futility of what has just happened, and it speaks on many volumes: about team work, about the sea and the land, about those who lead and those who follow. It does this through "fumbling" and "driving" and "hoarse"ness and "clogging"ly.

This description can be read as indicative of Covenant's emotional state after the events in the Cavern of the One Tree, yet there is no need for us to go into his inner thoughts to experience this. I agree that it is necessary for some internal parts in Linden's case (to explore her backstory) but I would hold that, objectively, too much internal focus hinders storytelling and thus can be validly criticised.

u.

[Ananda]

Are you out of your gourd, ussusimiel? I am a member of Linden's Army!

I like Linden and I understand we needed to see how messed up she was, etc.. I just thought it was a little over done and drawn out. It has been since last summer since I read it, so just going from memory of how I felt, really. I remember it dragging in those areas on this read. I wish I could remember what I thought back in the 80s when I was a teen, but nothing comes to mind specific for this section.

The only fantasy I've really read is these books and lord of the rings, so I don't have much other fantasy to compare it to. I think I read something else in the genre, but it escapes me now at nearly 3 in the morning (snoring husband syndrome). Well, I liked some of the Anne Rice vampire books before she started preaching philosophy too much, but that's a different type of fantasy, I guess.

Anyway, I see what you say, Vraith, I just thought it dragged in that I got that she was messed up and it didn't need to take so long time to say it over and over, if that makes sense. I suppose I'm saying that part could have been tightened up a bit, not omitted.

[Vraith]

Anyway, I see what you say, Vraith, I just thought it dragged in that I got that she was messed up and it didn't need to take so long time to say it over and over, if that makes sense. I suppose I'm saying that part could have been tightened up a bit, not omitted.

Yea, that's what I meant mostly when I said "I understand it as a matter of taste/preference," even if it wasn't clear. For me, I like that stuff cuz I've learned that it does connect. That the internal and external have a direct relationship and I revel in the anticipation and wordsmithing of where and how it will. [I'm not a big fan of Shakespeare's sonnets in general, but when he did things like begin "When my love swears that she is made of truth..." I love to trace and marvel at the multiples and puns, for instance.]
There are a few things that repeat too often...but I've discovered that many times that is an editorial thing [though I can't say for sure it is here, or not]. You'd be hard-pressed to find any really long work that doesn't do it [and in many ways it's realistic...self-talk, self-reflection, self-flagellation, internal dialogue, especially under stress, really IS usually nauseatingly repetitive, reiterated, obsessive, single-tracked]...at least SRD doesn't usually use the Lazy Version [as in Wheel of Time books...every major male and female char. says/thinks "man/woman 1 wished other major man/woman was here to help...man/woman doesn't understand men/women, other man/woman does" in pretty much every book...over and over...in exactly the same WORDS!]
But I also think [especially in the LC's though I won't spoiler anything here] many of those things that peeps gloss over as repetition are suffering from the glossing...the specific references/attachments and differences are being missed and reduced.

U. I simply don't agree that the first example from what you linked is objectively/technically/artistically better than the second even taken out of context as it is, let alone in context.
And I'm not saying "can be indicative of his emotional state," I'm saying something much more concrete [metaphorically speaking... ] is being done. The internal and external aren't merely representative/reflective of each other, they're practically an identity. I don't think the power of this can be overstated...
That's why, for instance, in many ways I find the discussions in another thread or two of Hile Troy's terrible [or great all things considered] strategy failure [or best that could be hoped for] fun, but mostly irrelevant to the point. It hurts because both things/story arcs are the same thing...the rising and destruction of one great soul, but in full 3D and surround sound.