Hello all.
This is my first post to this board, and I feel awkward, posting in front of the SRD crowd. A bit of stage fright, as it were.
Ever since I read the Second Chronicles more than 15 years ago, I have wondered why Chant was the way he was. He apparently was originally more like the girl (Dauphin?) and not as he had become.
Findail the Chosen spoke of Chant falling to something. He spoke of Infelice feeling that something. What was that something?
Findail spoke of the Elohim misunderstanding their own Wurd. That would be an incredible blunder on their part, wouldn't it? Sorta like a seeing person accidentally walking into a tree? Yet they did so.
How did the Elohim misunderstand their own Wurd? In what way did they misunderstand? Why did they misunderstand?
The Elohim spoke of the whole of the Earth, and everything happening on it, being a reflection of what happened in their land (I have forgotten the name.)
Does this mean the Sunbane originated in the Land of the Elohim? That Lord Foul started the Sunbane in that land, or in the Elohim themselves, and it's reflection struck the Land?
Is Chant's behavior related to this?
Is there more to the Elohim situation than this? I would really like to know what you'all think about this.
Edelaith_
Where did the Elohim go wrong?
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Damelon
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No need for stage fright, Edelaith. 
Welcome! I see you jumped right in.
My own take on this is that the Elohim were being subtly corrupted by Foul. During the soothtell at Revelstone, in TWL, TC learns that Foul has recovered his strength by attaching himself to the Earthpower, corrupting it in the process. The Elohim, being beings of Earthpower, are then subtly corrupted by Foul's process without necessarily being aware of it themselves.
The Elohim several times state that they are beings of the world - not tied to one physical place, so the location of the assult against them is the Land, where Foul has brought about the Sunbane, the corruption of Earthpower.
Welcome! I see you jumped right in.
My own take on this is that the Elohim were being subtly corrupted by Foul. During the soothtell at Revelstone, in TWL, TC learns that Foul has recovered his strength by attaching himself to the Earthpower, corrupting it in the process. The Elohim, being beings of Earthpower, are then subtly corrupted by Foul's process without necessarily being aware of it themselves.
The Elohim several times state that they are beings of the world - not tied to one physical place, so the location of the assult against them is the Land, where Foul has brought about the Sunbane, the corruption of Earthpower.
Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a good carpenter to build one.
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Fist and Faith
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Re: Where did the Elohim go wrong?
Welcome Edelaith!!!! 
Nice first post!!
But things aren't merely seen in Elemesnedene. The Sunbane effects them. In the outer world, it is a corruption, but is, in comparison to the entire world, sort of small so far. So within the Elohim, it is still sort of small, but noticable. And it is corrupting them.
And I imagine they were somewhat arrogant anyway, being so far above any other beings. And even if they weren't, it wouldn't be surprising if they made decisions that we couldn't understand, and took it for arrogance.
Nice first post!! Perhaps a better analogy would be that it's like humans not understanding their own meaning/purpose/role in existence. How could we not know such a thing?Edelaith_ wrote:Findail spoke of the Elohim misunderstanding their own Wurd. That would be an incredible blunder on their part, wouldn't it? Sorta like a seeing person accidentally walking into a tree? Yet they did so.
I think of Elemesnedene more like a relfection of the entire Earth. Anything that happens anywhere can be seen there. If they want to know about anything anywhere, they can find it by looking in Elemesnedene. Which is the same as looking into themselves.Edelaith_ wrote:The Elohim spoke of the whole of the Earth, and everything happening on it, being a reflection of what happened in their land (I have forgotten the name.)
But things aren't merely seen in Elemesnedene. The Sunbane effects them. In the outer world, it is a corruption, but is, in comparison to the entire world, sort of small so far. So within the Elohim, it is still sort of small, but noticable. And it is corrupting them.
And I imagine they were somewhat arrogant anyway, being so far above any other beings. And even if they weren't, it wouldn't be surprising if they made decisions that we couldn't understand, and took it for arrogance.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
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And when Findail was Appointed to do just that, he took it with extraordinarily bad grace...he has to be the most unappealing and reluctant Bodhisattva figure in all of literature. Findail's reluctance to undertake self-sacrifice to heal the Land perhaps is a time-delayed reflection of Covenant's own in the days of his militant Unbelief.jedi_gms wrote:i imagine that for the elohim it never crossed thier minds that they might actually have to die or lose thier freedom to save the land.
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danlo
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Yes, I sincerely invite everyone to join in our intense discussion of the Elohim in Dissecting the Land (thanks Durris!), here, as fft, are two crazy rants of mine as examples,
from chapter 7, TOT:
Truly Chant keeps some kind of cynical, condesending order to the flow of things in this mercurial opaline fishbowl (located where?) where all roads lead to the center. Apparently he has explored more of his dark side than other Elohim but many are beginning to follow him. This obviously indicates that Earthpower is beginning to be seriously hurt by Foul and the Sunbane, but to me I feel it goes deeper for Chant. My theory is that a number of Elohim dive deeper into self and the Earth during certain conditions. One of these being the conditions that determine the Celebration of Spring and that they can appear in the Land, in diminished capacity, as wraiths. And that Chant's dark place opened up first when he was singed by an Ur-Vile in Lord Foul's Bane.
from chapter 10, TOT:
Without retrospect it is very easy to misunderstand and hate the Elohim but what if we try to look at their Wurd in another way. I'm not sure if I can make myself clear here, but what if the Elohim really are on another level? This may be hard to except because, other than Foul, noone in the books, so far, has actually been on another level-even when we 1st saw the Lords in LFB they appeared, at first to be, but then we found out otherwise. If the Elohim are the stuff of stars and this fuels the Earthpower perhaps their foresight is greater than we expect it to be and perhaps their hurt goes back even deeper. If the Sunbane is effecting them so, then how, exactly did they react to the Ritual?
Now back to the quote and their foresight. Kast has correctly noted the wild paradoxes in this quote-if the Elohim aren't mortal then perhaps they are aware of or play some part in the summoning process? That would make sense to me-even if it's, exclusively, a Creator-Foul thing-which we know it isn't it still must take a sufficient amount of Earthpower to happen. If the Elohim are Earthpower incarnate prehaps they could see, to some extent, what was happening with the last summoning. Perhaps they knew Covenant was dying in our world, perhaps they knew he had the venom and believed it would kill him sooner. Or perhaps they saw Joan as the victim in the summoning and misread her as the "Sun Sage"?
They may not be mortal but I doubt they're perfect. Yes I agree that the "Joan theory" is a bit farfetched (but she did possess white-gold)-I just put that in to stir up discussion. But when Linden says to Infelice something like, "we mere mortals" I don't think Linden understands the difference between a "mortal of the Land's world" and a "mortal from our world". Infelice says in the above quote, "...when you concieve so little of import your own acts..." The same way that Covenant seemed to effect things in the Land in the first three books just by being from another world-the Elohim recognize a power in Linden that Linden doesn't know she has. (Is it possible that if both TC and LA as seperate entities realized there real inner powers it would cause too much chaos and destroy the Land's world?).
Could this be the real reason why Covenant must be nuetralized? Or, and here's the real wild meat: do the Elohim somehow know that Covenant is very near death in our world and must be put in statis to conserve any energy he might have left? Then again if the Elohim are "attuned" to the summoning process and can barely glimpse into our world can they completely comprehend the time differential? I doubt it-which pares my original proposal back to Joan as the Sun-Sage or Covenant dying in the Land before they reach Elemensnede. Or...that they had foreseen LA's weaknesses and expected her to possess TC and take the ring. But that assumes a bit too much preeminance, so I'm still confused
from chapter 7, TOT:
Truly Chant keeps some kind of cynical, condesending order to the flow of things in this mercurial opaline fishbowl (located where?) where all roads lead to the center. Apparently he has explored more of his dark side than other Elohim but many are beginning to follow him. This obviously indicates that Earthpower is beginning to be seriously hurt by Foul and the Sunbane, but to me I feel it goes deeper for Chant. My theory is that a number of Elohim dive deeper into self and the Earth during certain conditions. One of these being the conditions that determine the Celebration of Spring and that they can appear in the Land, in diminished capacity, as wraiths. And that Chant's dark place opened up first when he was singed by an Ur-Vile in Lord Foul's Bane.
from chapter 10, TOT:
Without retrospect it is very easy to misunderstand and hate the Elohim but what if we try to look at their Wurd in another way. I'm not sure if I can make myself clear here, but what if the Elohim really are on another level? This may be hard to except because, other than Foul, noone in the books, so far, has actually been on another level-even when we 1st saw the Lords in LFB they appeared, at first to be, but then we found out otherwise. If the Elohim are the stuff of stars and this fuels the Earthpower perhaps their foresight is greater than we expect it to be and perhaps their hurt goes back even deeper. If the Sunbane is effecting them so, then how, exactly did they react to the Ritual?
Now back to the quote and their foresight. Kast has correctly noted the wild paradoxes in this quote-if the Elohim aren't mortal then perhaps they are aware of or play some part in the summoning process? That would make sense to me-even if it's, exclusively, a Creator-Foul thing-which we know it isn't it still must take a sufficient amount of Earthpower to happen. If the Elohim are Earthpower incarnate prehaps they could see, to some extent, what was happening with the last summoning. Perhaps they knew Covenant was dying in our world, perhaps they knew he had the venom and believed it would kill him sooner. Or perhaps they saw Joan as the victim in the summoning and misread her as the "Sun Sage"?
They may not be mortal but I doubt they're perfect. Yes I agree that the "Joan theory" is a bit farfetched (but she did possess white-gold)-I just put that in to stir up discussion. But when Linden says to Infelice something like, "we mere mortals" I don't think Linden understands the difference between a "mortal of the Land's world" and a "mortal from our world". Infelice says in the above quote, "...when you concieve so little of import your own acts..." The same way that Covenant seemed to effect things in the Land in the first three books just by being from another world-the Elohim recognize a power in Linden that Linden doesn't know she has. (Is it possible that if both TC and LA as seperate entities realized there real inner powers it would cause too much chaos and destroy the Land's world?).
Could this be the real reason why Covenant must be nuetralized? Or, and here's the real wild meat: do the Elohim somehow know that Covenant is very near death in our world and must be put in statis to conserve any energy he might have left? Then again if the Elohim are "attuned" to the summoning process and can barely glimpse into our world can they completely comprehend the time differential? I doubt it-which pares my original proposal back to Joan as the Sun-Sage or Covenant dying in the Land before they reach Elemensnede. Or...that they had foreseen LA's weaknesses and expected her to possess TC and take the ring. But that assumes a bit too much preeminance, so I'm still confused
fall far and well Pilots!