Bible Reading

[deer of the dawn]

Even so, IIRC, the earliest gospel was still only written about 30 years after his death. *shrug*

I think I've always found Kin's argument that he was a Jewish freedom fighter (that's terrorist to the Romans) opposing Roman hegemony and such to be fairly compelling. If I can remember where it was or find it, I'll post a link.

His "idealisation" almost certainly only came later.

--A

That would be the premise of the film, Jesus Christ Superstar.

You should know that the 11 disciples (the Twelve, minus Judas) ALL died martyr's deaths, with the exception of John the Beloved. They believed so strongly that Jesus was resurrected from the dead (they had, after all, seen Him with their own eyes), they were willing to be put to death for that truth, rather than deny it. For them, it was the Resurrection that proved all of Christ's claims to be more than a mere man. If they had come up with that "idealization" on their own, I doubt they would have been willing to bleed for it.

And if you look at the teachings they wrote in the pursuant years, they had nothing to do with gaining political freedom from the Roman Empire, but rather "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved", not "Occupy the Forum".

[Orlion]

Even so, IIRC, the earliest gospel was still only written about 30 years after his death. *shrug*

I think I've always found Kin's argument that he was a Jewish freedom fighter (that's terrorist to the Romans) opposing Roman hegemony and such to be fairly compelling. If I can remember where it was or find it, I'll post a link.

His "idealisation" almost certainly only came later.

--A

That would be the premise of the film, Jesus Christ Superstar.

You should know that the 11 disciples (the Twelve, minus Judas) ALL died martyr's deaths, with the exception of John the Beloved. They believed so strongly that Jesus was resurrected from the dead (they had, after all, seen Him with their own eyes), they were willing to be put to death for that truth, rather than deny it. For them, it was the Resurrection that proved all of Christ's claims to be more than a mere man. If they had come up with that "idealization" on their own, I doubt they would have been willing to bleed for it.

And if you look at the teachings they wrote in the pursuant years, they had nothing to do with gaining political freedom from the Roman Empire, but rather "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved", not "Occupy the Forum".

Socrates allowed himself to be executed for much less.
John the Beloved's fate always confused me. It seems that earlier writings have him dying a martyr's death like the rest of the apostles, but then one day, people decided that was not the case, and some believe that he continues to live to this day.

But if nothing else, I agree with you on the early teachings with respect to 'political freedom'. A lot of early teachings in the Bible and contemporary with it was more concerned with the universalization of the Christian method and what that entailed (i.e. did it mean that converts had to follow specific rules or was that missing the point, etc etc.)

Now to try to get Revelations to fit in with that

[deer of the dawn]

But Socrates believed in the things he was executed for. And so did the apostles.

I ahve never read that "one day people decided". The stories about his life and death are centuries old. Among them is the story that he was dropped in a vat of boiling oil, and survived. But I don't know the provenance of the story myself. That he continues to live to this day-- I never heard that; though I did hear of the "Wandering Jew", someone from Christ's time who had something to do with betraying Him, and was giving immortality as a curse.

I was just reading about how in the book of Acts (the earliest days of the Church) the church leaders sat down in Jerusalem to hash out whether or not non-Jewish believers had to follow the Mosaic Code. The decision was a resounding No, BUT they asked that the non-Jews follow this set of rules, basically twofold: Not to eat meat that was strangled, bloody, or had been sacrificed to idols (because those things were horrific to Jews and they had to live together), and to refrain from sexual immorality. That was it, those were the rules; other than following Jesus' teachings.

[Rawedge Rim]

But Socrates believed in the things he was executed for. And so did the apostles.

I ahve never read that "one day people decided". The stories about his life and death are centuries old. Among them is the story that he was dropped in a vat of boiling oil, and survived. But I don't know the provenance of the story myself. That he continues to live to this day-- I never heard that; though I did hear of the "Wandering Jew", someone from Christ's time who had something to do with betraying Him, and was giving immortality as a curse.

I was just reading about how in the book of Acts (the earliest days of the Church) the church leaders sat down in Jerusalem to hash out whether or not non-Jewish believers had to follow the Mosaic Code. The decision was a resounding No, BUT they asked that the non-Jews follow this set of rules, basically twofold: Not to eat meat that was strangled, bloody, or had been sacrificed to idols (because those things were horrific to Jews and they had to live together), and to refrain from sexual immorality. That was it, those were the rules; other than following Jesus' teachings.

It wasn't quite as easy as that. James and the Zealot and the other leaders of the Christian movement in Jerusalem were dead set against non-jews being allowed to become Christians unless they first converted to the jewish faith, and following the LAW.

It was Paul at first, who openly advocated against this attitude, and everyone else came on board after Peter sided with Paul (though it took an almost direct message from God for this) (34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him)

[SoulBiter]

Peter was sent a vision and was told it was OK to eat... well just about anything.

Acts 10:9-17: “On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: And he became very hungry, and would have eaten; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Wherein were all manner of four-footed beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air, And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. And the voice spake unto him again the second time, what God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. This was done thrice; and the vessel was received up again into heaven

[deer of the dawn]

It wasn't quite as easy as that. James and the Zealot and the other leaders of the Christian movement in Jerusalem were dead set against non-jews being allowed to become Christians unless they first converted to the jewish faith, and following the LAW.

It was Paul at first, who openly advocated against this attitude, and everyone else came on board after Peter sided with Paul (though it took an almost direct message from God for this) (34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him)

Of course it wasn't "easy" for lifelong Jews to have God turn so much of what they had been indoctrinated on their heads. That's why Peter had to have that vision 3 times: God was like, This is important, get it right! And after they met and discussed it, Acts makes it clear that they agreed to it. But I am sure it was no overnight change.

btw, I was thinking later about what Orlion said about John "living to this day".

Joh 21:21 When Peter saw him, he asked, "Lord, what about him?"
22 Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me."
23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"
24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.
25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. (John 21)

This is where people get the idea, I guess, though I never met anyone who believed that.

[Orlion]

Okay, things are coming back to me. John seems to traditionally have died a natural death. Thanks, deer.