The First Staff

[Sherman Landlearner]

Okay, it seems to me that despite the first staff being a great tool for fighting corruption, it looks like it corrupted Drool Rockworm. I mean, I can't be sure that wasn't the Illearth stone, but it seems to be before he is said to have the stone. He might've had it, but it doesn't seem like it. But he is clearly tainted and "corrupted" when he brings TC to the land. So, my question(s) are:
Did he have the stone at that time?
Would you agree he was corrupted?
How could the staff of law do that?
I mean, really. He was just gnarly-looking. Ew.

[I'm Murrin]

He wasn't as bad as by the time he got the Stone, but he was already being talked to by Foul and encouraged to go digging for it, so the hunger for power was being actively nourished.

It's also suggested that the way he used the Staff was what caused his body to be so grotesquely deformed by the end, so it stands to reason that his using the Staff in ways that are against its nature could have been twisting his mind also. It was damaging him as a kind of resistance against what he was doing with it.

[Sherman Landlearner]

I'd agree, usually, but it seems odd that "the greatest of tools against Corruption" can corrupt its user. I mean, I can understand the reasoning, but I would think instead of corrupting him, it would just hurt him, not out and out harm. It seems wrong that even it can corrupt. Or perhaps it was prophetic of Elana's horrid fate. Maybe?

[Vraith]

I think you're looking at it wrong way round, except what Murrin is pointing at.
The staff isn't corrupting him. He's corrupt...the staff is just the pipe carrying Earthpower, according to Law. Drool is adding poison to the flow of Power, and the Law strictures are making him what he truly is. If he chose to "do good" he'd be strong. It is what it is, it's him, his mind, passion, and use that's the wrong material for the stuff it's carrying.

[Ananda]

Is earthpower good? I saw it as neutral.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I never read that about Drool.
I thought he wasn't physically messed up until he found the Stone.
Where does it say that the Staff did it?

[wayfriend]

When Drool summoned Covenent, he seemed hale. But he had not had the Illearth Stone. He searches for the Illearth Stone.

Later, Prothall says about Drool's blight: This power is not meant for you. It destroys you. You have used the Staff wrongly. You have used the Illearth Stone. Such powers are deadly. Lord Foul has betrayed you.

Certainly the Illearth Stone would harm Drool if he did not understand how to use it. (Stonemight Woodhelven, for another example.) And Prothall does say that misusing the Staff would also bring this on.

However, it seems plausingle to me that Prothall meant that using the Staff and the Stone together would cause Drool to wither like that. They are antithetical powers. Combining them can't be good. Drool's mixing beer and tequila.

[Sherman Landlearner]

I see... So, as far as we know, the staff is bringing his ethical and moral corruption to the surface, and the illearth stone is increasing his corrupt-ness, thus combining to cause him physical harm. That seem about right? Wow. He's one stupid dude, huh? I guess there's a reason they say cavewights are stupid.

[wayfriend]

they say cavewights are stupid.

Cavewights is so stupid. That's what they actually say.

[ussusimiel]

I had a bit of look at this one and I don't know if there is any indication that the Staff of Law causes Drool damage. Since Drool is a cavewight he is natural in the Land unlike the ur-viles. That being the case I would think that the Staff of Law should actually strengthen Drool, increasing his vitality and power.

Crouched on a low dais near the centre of the cave was a creature with long, scrawny limbs, hands as huge as shovels, a thin, hunched torso, and a head like a battering ram. As he crouched, his knees came up almost to the level of his ears. One hand was braced on the rock in front of him; the other gripped a long wooden staff shod with metal and intricately carved from end to end. His grizzled mouth was rigid with laughter, and his red eyes seemed to bubble like magma.

The creature leaped to his feet, capering with mad pride. He strode closer to his victim, and Covenant recoiled with a loathing he could not control.

These are the only descriptions we have of Drool with the Staff before he finds the Illearth Stone. The only exertion of power that is solely the work of the Staff, that we know of, is the bringing of Covenant to the Land. Later at the Council of Lords, Osondrea makes it clear that all the other strange and wrong events:

- south-running storms, a three-winged bird, an abominable attack on the Wraiths of Andelain, the bloodying of the moon.

couldn't be achieved by the Staff alone except by a huge exertion of will. This exertion might cause a person or creature to go mad but there is no indication that it would physically harm them.

It seems clear to me that any physical corruption that happens to Drool is the result of the Illearth Stone and that he found the Stone very soon after he brought Covenant to the Land.

u.

[P.S. Drool didn't want stupid Staff anyway!]

[Sherman Landlearner]

A-HA! New quote for reference. In PTP, Mhoram and Trevor are talking, just after Trevor "feels" the Staff at work in the evil winter, and he says,

Perhaps it is dead Kevin himself who wields the Staff on his(Foul's) behalf, lest he suffer the fate of Drool Rockworm.

[/i]
Huzzah!

[ussusimiel]

A-HA! New quote for reference. In PTP, Mhoram and Trevor are talking, just after Trevor "feels" the Staff at work in the evil winter, and he says,

Perhaps it is dead Kevin himself who wields the Staff on his(Foul's) behalf, lest he suffer the fate of Drool Rockworm.

[/i]
Huzzah!

Good one! But I'm still not convinced. Look at it this way: both Drool and Foul wield the Staff and the Stone at the same time. Drool suffered badly from the Stone (and maybe the Staff). Would Foul suffer from wielding the Stone? I don't think so, but he would suffer from wielding the Staff because he is not natural to the Land.

How about this: Drool, as a natural creature, was protected somewhat by the Staff while he wielded the Stone. Similarly, Foul would be protected by the Stone while wielding the Staff, but not enough. In the end the power that is inimical to the nature of its wielder destroys them.

So 'the fate' your quote refers to is not that caused specifically by the Staff, but rather one caused by wielding a power that is in conflict with your nature (the Illearth Stone in Drool's case, the Staff of Law in Fouls's case).

Huzzah!

u.

[Sherman Landlearner]

Point. But now, I'm still unconvinced. Drool is mad, thus "ill". The staff is a denial of all "ill", "corruption", and bad stuff. He's a bad dude. Thus, his nature would fit with the stone, so the stone wouldn't really harm him. Meaning it was definitely the staff, fighting his hold on their powers.

[ussusimiel]

Point. But now, I'm still unconvinced. Drool is mad, thus "ill". The staff is a denial of all "ill", "corruption", and bad stuff. He's a bad dude. Thus, his nature would fit with the stone, so the stone wouldn't really harm him. Meaning it was definitely the staff, fighting his hold on their powers.

You've just reminded me of this:

'Surrender it. For your own sake. Are you blind to yourself? Do you not not see what has happened to you? This power is not meant for you. It destroys you. You have used the Staff wrongly. You have used the Illearth Stone. Such powers are deadly. Lord Foul has betrayed you. Give me the Staff. I will strive to help you.'

'Drool seeks to master the Staff with malice. The High Lord can sing a stronger song than that.'

It seems you might be right after all. The manner in which the Staff is used seems to backfire on the user, so the way Drool has used the Staff has caused him harm. I'd still be inclined to hold that the Staff itself isn't what is causing the harm, rather the intent of the user. But it doesn't seem to matter whether the person is natural to the Land or not. As you say Drool is an evil dude so his intent backfires on him.

Huzzah for you!

u.

[Sherman Landlearner]

Point. But now, I'm still unconvinced. Drool is mad, thus "ill". The staff is a denial of all "ill", "corruption", and bad stuff. He's a bad dude. Thus, his nature would fit with the stone, so the stone wouldn't really harm him. Meaning it was definitely the staff, fighting his hold on their powers.

You've just reminded me of this:

'Surrender it. For your own sake. Are you blind to yourself? Do you not not see what has happened to you? This power is not meant for you. It destroys you. You have used the Staff wrongly. You have used the Illearth Stone. Such powers are deadly. Lord Foul has betrayed you. Give me the Staff. I will strive to help you.'

'Drool seeks to master the Staff with malice. The High Lord can sing a stronger song than that.'

It seems you might be right after all. The manner in which the Staff is used seems to backfire on the user, so the way Drool has used the Staff has caused him harm. I'd still be inclined to hold that the Staff itself isn't what is causing the harm, rather the intent of the user. But it doesn't seem to matter whether the person is natural to the Land or not. As you say Drool is an evil dude so his intent backfires on him.

Huzzah for you!

u.

Unfortunately, I've logic-ed myself into being wrong. It's the staff of LAW. He was using it to warp LAW. So, it was recoil from it, not his general evilness, that harmed him, because he was trying to warp Law, with basically, itself, through the staff. But either way, it did hurt him. So I'm kinda right.

[ussusimiel]

Unfortunately, I've logic-ed myself into being wrong. It's the staff of LAW. He was using it to warp LAW. So, it was recoil from it, not his general evilness, that harmed him, because he was trying to warp Law, with basically, itself, through the staff. But either way, it did hurt him. So I'm kinda right.

I agree with you that the Staff itself didn't hurt Drool (it might actually be good for him) but rather his attempt to warp the Law. And this leads me to a point on which I disagree with you regarding the Illearth Stone. I think that the presence of the Stone itself would damage Drool's nature while his attempts to do evil with it probably wouldn't cause him any harm.

This would be reversed in the case of Foul. I think the presence of the Staff would undo Foul while the Stone would strengthen him.

u.

[Menolly]

I think that the presence of the Stone itself would damage Drool's nature while his attempts to do evil with it probably wouldn't cause him any harm.

This would be reversed in the case of Foul. I think the presence of the Staff would undo Foul while the Stone would strengthen him.

Hence the reason for Elena, Foul-wife to brandish the staff?

[Sherman Landlearner]

Agreed. But I'd say it's not the presence, per se, but the use of it. Foul's been near the staff enough, he just doesn't use it.

[ussusimiel]

Agreed. But I'd say it's not the presence, per se, but the use of it. Foul's been near the staff enough, he just doesn't use it.

You're right, he was on Kevin's Council for years. I'd still probably hold that the presence of the Staff would affect Foul but because of his own inherent power he would be able to mask the effects. Remember that he was able to pass the Test of Truth and was given precious gifts of orcrest and lomillialor (which he quickly lost).

u.