M.O.A.R part3 Final Nail in THOOLAH's coffin

[ussusimiel]

Uss, to me there's a glaring counter-example of that in the Malazan series.

Still only read the first Malazan. If you're talking about Tattersail, I won't argue with you as I haven't seen her character development across a number of books. If what you say is true then I look forward even more to reading the rest of the series.

u.

[Cambo]

Yes, I was unsure of how many you'd read. I wasn't thinking of Tattersail, but the character arc I was thinking of runs across most of the six books I've read. So I'll keep shtum.

[wayfriend]

Malazan is replete with females in non-traditional roles. I honestly think that Erikson roles a die to determine the sex of his characters. (He probably uses a DnD character generator!)

[Cambo]

Good call Wayfriend.

[kevinswatch]

HLT! Say it ain't so!

-jay

THOOLAH!!!

[High Lord Tolkien]

HLT! Say it ain't so!

-jay

THOOLAH!!!

You were gone too long.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

Zorm, I see your point about male and female heroes. I'd like you to consider something that's very similar, but a bit more subtle, and tell me what you think about it. And that is this: Covenant's problems were external; Linden's problems were internal.

Well, attempting to answer the rest of this and perhaps add something extra to the Linden debate.... I may see the internalization/externalization of their respective problems differently, like I explained in my last post. I may even consider the case of Linden's mother about 50% external, seeing how her unyielding self-victimization and blaming of her daughter lead Linden to the drastic act of what could be beheld as mercy-killing.

As for her fighting back and healing of her own spiritual scars, doesn't she perform this via her health-sense in the Land? Could the average reader have problems perceiving this detail? She's already a doctor in the real world, apparently a skilled one, so should it arrive as a surprise that she would be more apt to take advantage of the Land's gift than Covenant? That argument I would hand to those who tend to get annoyed at her quicker in-tuning to the Land's harmony than the title character. However, in my opinion, Linden gradually sheds her guilt and poor self-confidence by accepting the fact that she may work marvels of various magnitudes with this newfound power. On the other hand, she must force self-assurance into herself to adeptly wield the power. It's a self-feeding process. (One could drag the controversy of Covenant's possession and imposed curing into this, but trying to keep it briefer due to a lack of time.) However, could she appear weaker--and whinier--than Covenant due to the relative difficulty of unearthing this strain of development? Is it possibly more effortless to discern from a woman's point of view? Overall, it might be interesting to hear if female readers generally accept her more readily than men.

The non-linearity of a mental healing process sits next atop the question pile. Mentioned it already in my last post, but real people hardly ever recover from depression, etc. in the fashion of walking up a straight pipe, every step firm and always ascending. Nope, they slip back, sometimes to the very bottom of the slope multiple times. Besides, once one has invited darkness into their frontal lobe, scraps of its essence will always linger in random corners even after a good spring cleaning. Linden feels real due to this detail: she does fight back, yet not akin to your standard fantasy heroine. This also demonstrates itself in the 3rd chrons. Now, ROTE and parts of the other two books are getting frayed around the edges in my memory; should re-read the lot, and I haven't yet decided whether I "like" her 10-years-afterwards personality. Now, here one must make a distinction between liking a character and appreciating at how he or she is written: They are two completely different matters. I found Angus, for instance, an utterly repulsive and atrocious being almost to the very end, and mostly still so, but would laud SRD for creating such a believable character. Then there exist cases like Edward Cullen, which have fewer dimensions than a null vector, and zero creative merit besides. Linden does have qualities that SRD could have honed into a better shape, but even so emerges from the pages as a complex character, far, far more so than any of the perpetually PMS'ing damsels of WOT, for instance.

Some argue that she performs too well (or marysueishly) with the new Staff of Law in the 3rd chrons. Well, admittedly this vexes me to some degree also, but I've later considered it from a different angle. She forged the instrument herself, put part of her own personality and logic and health-sense within, so therefore why should she not be able to extract power from it better than Covenant from the first SOL? Furthermore the fact that she appears to hop so conveniently from one caesure to another and heal every critter and their pet rocks.... Well, we have comprehended now that she has made severe errors: roused the Worm, endangered the whole Arch of Time. Until TLD, it's fairly impossible to tell how many of her apparent successes Foul has affected no matter how indirectly, unmaking their first impression entirely.

Then there's the question of the Land's nature: as of yet, we have no steadfast inkling as to whether it's an allegory of Covenant's psyche, a real alternate universe, or both at the same time. She has spent some time intimately with him, so I'd dare to presume that she might know a tiny bit more about his mental workings than a random Giant. If the happenings in the Land are reflections or manifestations of C's soul, perhaps she understands them on some level(?) and thus possesses a rudimentary inner map. This is just a guess, however, based on a fleeting idea I had while compiling my AATE dissection.

Men are expected to be strong, we assume they are until otherwise told. Women are expected to be weak, we assume they are until otherwise told. The mold is there, prefitted for our preconceptions.

This could well be it, but one must apparently exercise their braincells a bit to see that there's a different interpretation beneath. On the other hand, many people like the damsel-in-distress trope, but does it turn upside down when the character stops falling into the pretty-buxom-blonde-with-a-cardboard-personality pit?


Now, hopefully this makes sense and sheds light into one viewpoint. I'd usually like to spend some more time proofing the answer to a multifaceted question of this ilk, but regrettably have no excess hours right now.

[wayfriend]

Thanks! I like to collect opinions on the subject.

You mention the health-sense. Yes, one of the things about Linden's character was that the Land of the Second Chronicles was designed to horrify her, where the Land of the First Chronicles was designed to seduce Covenant. But the terms of the horror were, only Linden could really perceive it. So you have a character whose position is, basically, to be bludgeoned and intimidated by things that don't bother anyone else. (And in the background contrasting this to Covenant's seeing so much beauty and wonder.) Again, Donaldson sets her up as someone who can easily be perceived as weak and a whiner.

Maybe by itself it would have been okay. But coming into it, she's been cast as a person with unexplained psychological issues. As I said, so many people would immediately assume she was weak and a whiner just from this. If you're already leaning that way, piling the health-sense issue on top of it just seals the deal.

So Linden has a triple bias to overcome - femininity, psychological issues, and the Land's personal affect on her.

Like I said often enough, once you lean that way, everything that subsequently follows only seems to confirm that point of view. Some see the difficulties that she faces, other's see only the inneffectualness of her responses.

[Zarathustra]

All the problems noted here are really problems of portrayal. I've said before that I think Linden is a great character. I just don't like how Donaldson handles her all the time. For instance, making her love for Jeremiah the main plot mechanism of the LC was a mistake. He's a kid we don't know, not even a character for about 70% of the LC. He's merely a plot device. As such, Linden's love for him feels artificial. Some have complained that her love isn't shown ... that's inaccurate, as Orlion pointed out. Her love is demonstrated by the entire plot of the LC. The reason it feels like it's not shown is because we never got to make a connection with Jeremiah ourselves. Therefore, the more SRD has Linden state, "My son!" or some other expression of concern, the more unearned this connection feels. It keeps calling attention to this basic lack of portrayal.

Jeremiah is the problem in this instance, not Linden. Because we don't know (much less love) him as a character, it's hard to see why she would. Conceptually, I can believe that she would love him, but I can't relate or share that love at all. I simply don't care. It doesn't engage me as a reader. Therefore, it feels forced (as a plot device). A writer must take us along on the journey, and get *us* to feel along with the characters, and not merely treat us as bystanders. Heck, I'd be more engaged if Jeremiah was an asshole like Angus, and Linden loved him anyway, and thus her love was entirely unbelievable. At least I'd care enough then to be indignant, rather than indifferent.

And this problem of portrayal extends to the Second Chronicles, too. Compare Linden's character development to Covenant's in the First Chronicles. We learned about TC's conflicts and the source of his pain from the very first page. We were able to build up sympathy and emotional investment in this character from the very beginning. We learned his trial, his obstacle, from the beginning. But with Linden, it took us until book two to learn about her parents. Book Two!! That's ridiculous. That's a massive miscalculation ... even worse than waiting until book three to give Jeremiah the one scene where he's a Real Boy, an actual character. She's a protagonist, a POV character. You can't wait until the middle of the second book to show her main conflict and expect readers to form an emotional, empathetic bond with her. She might have excellent, justifiable reasons to be whiny, but if you wait until hundreds of pages to give us those reasons, we've already formed our opinion about her. It's very difficult to change this opinion after it's formed. The stuff about her parents--while horrifying and interesting--seem like mere rationalization at that point. It feels like author manipulation. Imagine how you'd feel about Covenant if you didn't learn that he had leprosy, that his wife left him, and his town tried to squeeze him out of existence until TIW. No one would have stuck around to read about this asshole. Hell, many people don't make it past the rape scene as it is. But if we weren't given any reason to sympathize with him until book two, this would have been an utter failure as a story.

So the difference isn't male/female. It isn't internal/external. It's a problem of narrative portrayal.

Also, for the Linden defenders ... if you focused on Linden as a fictional character, and stopped treating her as a real person or a placeholder for people's feelings toward real women, you might make some headway in your arguments. Criticizing people for not treating Linden or women heroes with respect is silly. This isn't a problem of people overcoming their biases or expectations of women. Nor is this a problem of people seeking confirmation of their prejudices. She's a fictional character, and no one's feelings are hurt if we think she's a whiny bitch. No real human has been judged. A work of art has been judged. An author's portrayal has been judged. This has always, only been an issue with an author's ability to engage readers' empathy toward a fictional character. Clearly, this author has failed with many, many people. It's not the fault of those people. It's not a function of us expecting women to be weak or to have problems that are their own fault (internal). If this is how we felt about all female characters, then you might have a point. But as ussusimiel said, many THOOLAH members like females characters, just not this one.

Anytime you seek an explanation in the reader instead of the writer, you're blaming the reader, even if you ostensibly claim you're not. Let's stop blaming readers, and focus on the text.

[Vraith]

That's a good post, Z, even if I still don't agree [and I don't]. It's funny, for the third or fourth time in the LC's talk, you point out something in a way that makes me say "well, DUH, I shoulda known that's part of what they're talking about." But at the same time, the thing you point out is one of the things I LIKE about how things are handled. I mean, I like the "absence" of Jerry as a character and how it functions. In many ways, he's what Joan was to TC in all the first, and much of the second chronicles. [though there are twists and differences, too...there's a pretty deep comparison/contrast post in tracing those two sets of relationships, personal and structural, one I'll likely never write].

At least I never fell into the "you just don't like women/strong women" trap.

Of course we can't/shouldn't "blame" or "fault" readers in that or other personal ways...but obviously there is something of the reader involved. Cuz if there weren't there wouldn't be peeps who think the LC's are, or might end up being, the best of the Chron's as well as the many disappointed you mention.

[Zarathustra]

Vraith, of course you're right that reader involvement is always part of the process. But that's more of a personal thing, right? We can never speak for another person on a purely subjective issue. We have actual members of THOOLAH right here on this site, in this thread. They aren't hypothetical readers, or readers in general. They are specific people who are telling us how they feel. And then there are others telling them that they are wrong about their own feelings? Why speculate into readers' minds when we can just listen to what they have to say for themselves?

[wayfriend]

And then there are others telling them that they are wrong about their own feelings?

I haven't seen that happening.

[ussusimiel]

I was reading The Chronicles as Allegory thread and finally read SRD'd essay, Epic Fantasy in the Modern World. (I know, I know, I'm a bit behind in my SRD studies, but I beg your forebearance )

Anyway, after reading the essay a couple of things occurred to me. Firstly, SRD talks about the way fantasy makes internal struggles external e.g. Foul is an externalised part of Covenant, Sauron is an externalised part of Frodo (both Foul and Sauron also being parts of us as well , eeeek!). What this brought to my attention is one of my common complaints about Linden, which is that a lot of her struggles are internal. Yes there are lots of enemies and banes outside of her but I also have the sense that there is a lot inside her that is not externalised in the world of the Land. This helps explain why I am so frustrated with her interiority. I just don't expect it in fantasy.

While TC was quite interior and whiny at the start of the 1st Chrons as the books proceeded he came to grips with the externalised enemies (Foul, Drool etc.) and came to accept/love the externalised friends (Mhoram, Foamfollower etc.). This simplified things as the books progressed. This hasn't happened with Linden. In fact the opposite has happened. Because Linden hasn't come to grips with her enemies, they have multiplied, and because she hasn't accepted her friends, they also have multiplied. I didn't understand before why there were so many helpers surrounding Linden. She doesn't accept her victories and she doesn't accept her gifts/comforts.

And on reading SRD's essay a question suggests itself: What happens when a character in a fantasy world refuses to externalise some of their internal conflicts? (Answers in the speculation thread please )

And then there are others telling them that they are wrong about their own feelings?

I haven't seen that happening.

We in THOOLAH are often maligned in this manner by the benighted minions under the geas of Linden. You, wayfriend, are exceptional in your fairness, but others, such as the weak-kneed Vraith, are forever bowing their anile heads at the alter of the Whiney One and relentlessly seek to impugn the anointed of THOOLAH

u.

[Vraith]

but others, such as the weak-kneed Vraith, are forever bowing their anile heads at the alter of the Whiney One and relentlessly seek to impugn the anointed of THOOLAH

u.

Now I don't think that is so. I have surely argued that I think the text doesn't support the whining interpretation...but I think I have relied on the book and events to disagree. I don't THINK that I've impugned the character or personality of the THOOLAH-ites. [except once or twice in jest, perhaps]. I don't THINK I've told anyone they don't have the right to their feelings [I KNOW I've often said exactly the opposite, explicitly].

So, I hurl a at the feet or your

[do I need to that?]

[ussusimiel]

Now I don't think that is so. I have surely argued that I think the text doesn't support the whining interpretation...but I think I have relied on the book and events to disagree.....

So, I hurl a at the feet or your

Gee I'd hate to get into a serious discussion when we could be hurlings 's and 's at each other (it's much more fun ).

But, seriously, when you use the text to argue against the whining interpretation what you are really doing is supporting your own position. I hardly have to point out that my negative feelings towards the character can only arise from the same text (as my positive feeling did from the 2nd Chrons). Any argument after that (no matter how well-intended) feels like it's aimed at my personal reactions/response rather than something I have missed in the text. (I don't take it personally and I admire the passion with which the views are held (despite my THOOLAH posturings ) It's a given that we all have a deep admiration for SRD.).

When I complain about Linden (unless in THOOLAH mode) I usually don't try to show that people who like her are in error. I know that there is plenty of evidence of Linden's strengths/good decisions/passion/endurance, but what is also clear (to me and many others) is that SRD has been unable to get a large part of his (very willing and forgiving) audience to empathise with Linden in the Last Chrons. IMO, no matter what he does in TLD, nothing can redeem the not insignificant sections of the three preceding books that I found borderline unreadable (I read them with much grinding of teeth ).

Now, the obvious response is SRD's, 'Don't read the books!' And it is here that THOOLAHites like myself are hoist on our own hustin-wielded petards, we can't let go because we love the 1st and 2nd Chrons incondignly. So we whine (in a much more graceful way than Linden) on and on endlessly (well at least until the light goes out in TLD ).

All 's received with pleasure!

u.

[MsMary]

Like what you wrote, ussusimiel.

(No and )

[wayfriend]

What this brought to my attention is one of my common complaints about Linden, which is that a lot of her struggles are internal. Yes there are lots of enemies and banes outside of her but I also have the sense that there is a lot inside her that is not externalised in the world of the Land.

Oh, but it is!

Linden (as I understand her) was dealing with feelings of inadequacy and worthlessness because the events with her parents have caused her to believe that she was inadvertantly, and possibly advertantly, the cause of their demise. She was unloved, she was a burden, she drove her father to suicide, she killed her mother. Her black moods now show her inner fears of being futile and without value. She became a doctor to become effective and valuable ... but this didn't fix things.

So what happens when she gets to the Land?

The Sunbane is the incarnation of not only sickness, but of immedicability. It confronts the doctor within her.

The Clave is evil incarnate. The kind of evil that takes the life of that which nourishes and sustains it. The exact kind of evil that she fears, and wants to deny, that she is. The kind of evil that she wants to call a sickness in an effort to believe it's curable.

She has no ring. She is forced to confront being inneffectual, of having no power, of having no value.

Then, to top it all off, the Clave tells her she is evil. As evil as she always feared she was. She's going to destroy everything.

All these things throw Linden back on her arse, and force her to examine her life's dilemma. These things are indeed externalizations of her internal struggles for worth and efficacy. They are confrontational externalizations. Not exactly in the same way Covenant experienced - look, there's my hatred of lepers - but in ways that are less straightforward but every bit as real.

[High Lord Tolkien]

In the time it took me to finish typing this post Linden slaughtered an army of Cavewrights.

Queen of....."inaction"?
Not anymore.