Acropolis Discussion

[[Syl]]

Well, three is better than none, but since only one other person contacted me saying that they couldn't participate fully due to personal reasons, that's still only half.

I considered just doing the trial for the other people, but that wouldn't be fair to the people who wrote their own and frankly, would be a bit too burdensome for me.

I'm also tempted to just put the game on hold until all Trial entries are in. The problem is, I'm just not feeling it.

[Fist and Faith]

Sorry. I wish I had anything useful to say. I just want to do turns. Don't like trials. Not good at them. Frustrating. Yadda yadda. Honestly, I don't care if I take the penalties when I don't do them.

And I also understand that you have a vision for this game. No hard feelings if I can't play not doing the trials.

[Avatar]

I'm easy either way. Still seem to be struggling to get into it, but then, we're only like 4 turns in. I'll battle on if you want to.

--A

[Orlando]

I'm totally struggling to get the trials in. Crazy busy in life that I didn't have the time to Write anything up.

[[Syl]]

There's not that much difference between a Trial and a turn except that a Trial is something specific I want the players to accomplish in order to set the foundation for the broader story, giving you in-game advantages at no cost other than a little imaginative effort. By more or less giving me the finger, you limit my ability to help you compete and excell in the things to come.

Also, when I said the 7th earlier, no one objected. Likewise, one player contacted me and told me that he was really busy right now and didn't know if he'd be able to contribute. Since he made the effort and showed genuine interest and concern for the game, I told him it was fine if he could just continue to contribute when he could.

All I'm asking for is a little faith and a little effort. If you don't want to do that... fine. No more trials. But I'm going to bring the story, whether you're ready for it or not. I will continue to answer any reasonable questions, but no more hand-holding and whining, within my hearing, will be punished.

The turn submission is the 1st. Late submissions will not be accepted without prior approval.

I'll try to have a crude map of Trunk before Sunday.

[Menolly]

But I'm going to bring the story, whether you're ready for it or not.

Yay. I really do believe I play much better when I have something to react to, rather than invent things on my own.
...especially since I need to replan the one idea I started with.

Yeah, I know I'll probably totally get slammed and have no idea what to do, but I am looking forward to following a story of some sort.

I will continue to answer any reasonable questions, but no more hand-holding

uh-oh...

and whining, within my hearing, will be punished.

Noted. Hopefully I haven't been too guilty of such in the past.

[Goatkiller666]

By more or less giving me the finger, you limit my ability to help you compete and excell in the things to come.

Also, when I said the 7th earlier, no one objected. Likewise, one player contacted me and told me that he was really busy right now and didn't know if he'd be able to contribute. Since he made the effort and showed genuine interest and concern for the game, I told him it was fine if he could just continue to contribute when he could.

All I'm asking for is a little faith and a little effort. If you don't want to do that... fine. No more trials. But I'm going to bring the story, whether you're ready for it or not. I will continue to answer any reasonable questions, but no more hand-holding and whining, within my hearing, will be punished.

The turn submission is the 1st. Late submissions will not be accepted without prior approval.

I'll try to have a crude map of Trunk before Sunday.

That's kind of harsh, isn't it? I'll own not submitting anything. And I'll own not contacting you beforehand to let you know that I was dealing with life stuff. And I'll totally agree that you're doing us a favor here by running the game, and that its in our best interest to keep you interested, or else it won't be worth your time to continue running it.

Actually, I don't really have anywhere to go from there. All those things are true, and I know my part in that. So, I hope you're still interested in running it, and I hope that life quits kicking me in the teeth so I can step up again.

As a suggestion, you might try doing turns as normal (with deadlines, and all the reprecussions of failing to submit, etc.), but then do the backstory as optional sandbox type stuff. We're all grown-ups... we should be able to avoid the conflicts of interest and help fill in the sandbox without always slanting things in our own characters' favor. And if some players are more comfortable / have the extra bandwidth to work in Historical context, and that somehow ends up benefitting them... honestly... those are the players who are keeping you most interested in the game anyway. I'm not sure that some additional benefit going to them is a bad thing. It's certainly no worse than the huge power difference I had in Pantheon by starting later than most other players.

'Cause you'll probably get more enthusiasm from people with bonus stuff than with penalties for non-compliance.

[[Syl]]

That's kind of harsh, isn't it?

Yep. I'm in a harsh mood.

As a suggestion, you might try doing turns as normal (with deadlines, and all the reprecussions of failing to submit, etc.), but then do the backstory as optional sandbox type stuff.

I tried that. Mixed results. So I figured if the carrot didn't work... But we're going back to turns as normal, and you all will just have to take things as they come.

Mainly, I just realized I'm trying too hard to preserve the game. From the atheist test, to getting players set up through the Trials, to waiting until you all have some resources and a couple DSP to deal with things. But if the resources you all are building up aren't exactly useful for what is coming, or if people aren't trying to up their stats, I'll have to accept the fact that things could end badly. Characters may die, and the world may end. *shrug*

[Fist and Faith]

Saying, "I like X, but I don't like Y" is not giving you the finger, Syl. It's just how I feel. I'm simply not into it. If Y is a required part of the game, and I don't play, there's not the slightest need for any sort of hard feelings on either of our parts. There are a few other games here that I'm not playing, and, afaik, there's no hard feelings anywhere. This is slightly different because I didn't know Y was going to be part of the game before it started.

And I didn't complain about the deadline of the 7th because I had already complained about trials as a whole. No need to object to each one, neh?

None of this is whining. It's not complaining. It's just me stating what I like and what I don't like. If your game can accomodate me playing without trials, awesome. If it can't, I'll bow out. I don't want to ruin the enjoyment you get out of running the game any more than I want your specific way or running it ruin my enjoyment for playing it. To each his own, I figure. Not sure what more either of us can ask of the other.

[[Syl]]

It's not all about you, man, and you're focusing on the wrong parts of my post.

You think this is like the contests of Pantheon or the previous challenges in Acropolis. It's not. I called them "trials" for a reason ('What reason?' you ask. Pity no one ever asked ). I thought this would be clear when I paused the game to get this completed.

The fact is, I've extended deadlines, made concessions, and done what I could to get us all on the same page—a page you should probably be on, whether you believe so or not. It stings a bit that you show a lack of faith in me as a GM, but it should sting more that you don't have it in yourself.

You don't like X? Let me call a wambulance for you. Nobody likes adventurers in Pantheon, but it's something you deal with to play the game. You're pretty much saying, 'If I can't get my way, I won't play.' That may be your right, but I don't have to like it. And these games wouldn't get very far if everyone did the same.

And even though I wasn't addressing that to just you, yes, if you plan on not participating, you could at least do me the service of telling me, instead of letting me wonder if people are going to be late, didn't realize the deadline, etc. If you're not playing the other games, they're not exactly expecting anything from you, are they? In other circles, that's called a 'no-call, no-show.' McD's doesn't care if you don't show up for work if you're employed at the Wendy's across the street.

You say you're not complaining, but just above that you said you complained. Which is it? All I'm saying is fine, we'll do it your way, but don't come to me later when your lack of participation puts you at a disadvantage. You'll just have to go deep into the Y to make it work. I hope.

And look, you had to know what you're getting into when you signed on for this game. It's not like I've ever claimed to simply run Pantheon-Lite. It's been an experiment every time. Purgatory. Acropolis I. I'm pretty sure I said from the start there would be some big differences. I'm telling you, though, it will be worth it. Unlike Acropolis I, I've had a middle game in mind from the start, and even something of an end game. It will be epic. But with only 7 players, it's hard to be epic when I can't get half the players to go along, and only them with extreme goading (personally, I think it sucks that I can only get 7 players when more than that clamor for a game that's been delayed for more than a year and still has no definite start date).

And if you think Pantheon 4.0 will be easy, Xar's already told me he has some pretty big changes in mind, some of those stemming from the way Acropolis work.

[Fist and Faith]

I don't have a lack of faith in you as a GM. I have great faith that you are trying something new and different. Unfortunately, I don't have the slightest idea what it is, much less how to go about it. But I object to the premise. I have my own thoughts on how to be Shen. Thoughts that don't include Time, Death, and who knows what else you'll tell us to do next. I have my plans, and I also have to react to what's out there. Certainly, Shen will be influenced and shaped by the setting he's in. Just as we are by everything in the world. But the end result is my character.

But you're saying, "Do this." "Now do this." "And now this." You're telling me how to be Shen.

To make it worse, I'm misunderstanding how you want me to be Shen. So my second trial was invalid. If I have to take some part of time, I could have been Historian. Records are in the layers of the mountain. But you wanted us to do seasons or something. I've never taken a season in any game. It just doesn't interest me.

Now we have to do something with death and afterlife. And it has to be in the Crown or Root? I don't know anything at all about the Crown or Root. I've always intended to make Shen Mountain a fortress, and spread (not in an imperialist way) from there. Even into the Crown or Root, when I'm happy with the mountain and have power to spend in those places. But you say I have to go there now, not knowing anything about them, to do something I never had any intention of doing. And I have to try to meld it with what I want Shen to be, so that it doesn't fee like it was patched together. How much of Shen will be mine when we're done?

If I had to do something with afterlife, I would have the souls of my faithful be absorbed into the mountain, and the gathered energy would become a power I could use to make wards for the people and the mountain. But that's not Crown or Root, so it's invalid.

I've spent more time and thought on these games than most, if not all. Maybe completely sane people don't take it all as seriously as I do. But I do. I have firm ideas about it, and don't know how to reconcile them with your system.

[Menolly]

Just to lighten the mood a little. Feel free to delete if inappropriate, Autarch.

I had to get a new chopsticks carrying case, as the one I had for years as a gift from my father-in-law has seen it's final days. Here's the one I chose. I couldn't find a dragon nor a phoenix, so went with Serenity's totem.

[I'm Murrin]

Fist, other than a tree, I'd have thought a mountain was the perfect thing to have straddling the metaphysical boundaries. They do, after all, possess both a crown and a root.

[[Syl]]

Fist, you sound like a child complaining to his parents "I can't be me!" because he inherited their DNA and last name, locking yourself in the room because you don't like what's for dinner. The fact that there are attendant necessities to existence does not preclude individuality.

For instance, the time Trial. My goal was to simply explain time (since that's what I've said all along that we're doing—explaining the world). Previously, we had no explanation of days, months, seasons, etc, or even proof that there were such in this game. In our heliocentric model of the solar system, we know why this is. How does that work if your world is a tree? That's what I was getting at. Instead, you decide to go with 'the past.' I didn't see any need to explain past, present, etc. Even then, I was like, 'OK, that's unexpected, but fine.' But then you wanted to make yourself some kind of time lord, and that was just not what the Trial was about.

Off the top of my head, if I were you, I would've chosen to explain the hours of a day, using the tracking of the shadow of Shen's peak by way of justification. It doesn't change who you are, but it does involve yourself and explains the world.

I can't tell you why the last Trial was important, because it would give away much of what's to come. Even saying that much is more knowledge than players should have. Let me ask you, though, why would your tribe follow you if you don't answer one of the most essential questions of human existence? And if you want what you said above, why would they want to give you their essence eternally to make you stronger? Still, it could work, and if you have these ideas, why not go with them? These things are freebies, afterall.

You say you don't understand Crown and Root. Fine, you're not alone, even though I think I've explained it as much as I can without filling in the blanks—which I intentionally left so it would not limit players—for you. Honestly, I'm not sure at this point what more I could possibly say on it without drawing you a detailed map (which is a bit hard, since I'm waiting on you guys to supply the details).

Here, how about this. One card I've been holding up my sleeve, not because I'm crafty, but... In literary criticism, there is also the psychoanalytic theory, and one of the major components of it is Freud's model of consciousness. Despite the fact that this mode of criticism didn't come about until after the psychiatry field had largely abandoned Freud's theories of the id, ego, and super-ego, the ideas persist (in popular culture as well... which enhances its usefulness in literary criticism). Put simply (though I didn't intend this when I was setting it up), Root = id, Trunk = ego, Crown = super ego. They're all a part of the same consciousness, but different layers or aspects of it, both independent and interconnected. Trunk is what's real or central, but Root is the root of desire, while Crown is an idealized projection.

But as I've said before, in the end, you can get by just by treating them like separate worlds. Or like Heaven and Hell. Whatever.

To be honest, I'm amazed that you play Inferno. I think Goat's system is awesome, but even more metaphysical and arcane than mine. I don't even understand half of what's going on, but I'm enjoying it and doing my best to adapt, to learn, and to even shape the game to my advantage. Likewise, none of us had any idea what the hell was going on in Pantheon 1, but we dealt with frustration and enjoyed it for what it was, right? What's the problem here?

[Orlando]

So, would you still allow us to post if we have something, even though it's embarassingly late?

I fully understand I may not benefit from it but I'd didn't realize you needed us to fill in the blanks, as you put it.

[[Syl]]

Sure, go ahead. As long as the Trial entry isn't responding to current events, it's never too late.

[Orlando]

Done.

[Fist and Faith]

Fist, you sound like a child complaining to his parents "I can't be me!" because he inherited their DNA and last name, locking yourself in the room because you don't like what's for dinner.

I sound more like a child complaining to his parents "I can't be me!" because he is being forced into becoming a doctor, when he wants to be a lawyer. Yes, that's more than what you're doing. But your child's complaint is less than what you're doing.

The fact that there are attendant necessities to existence does not preclude individuality.

That depends on the attendant necessity.

Off the top of my head, if I were you, I would've chosen to explain the hours of a day, using the tracking of the shadow of Shen's peak by way of justification. It doesn't change who you are, but it does involve yourself and explains the world.

Sure, maybe I overreached by saying I created the rules that put events into an order. But it could easily be seen as me being the Historian. The past is written in my bones. I could even have been given some kind of bonus when looking for information from the past.

Let me ask you, though, why would your tribe follow you if you don't answer one of the most essential questions of human existence?

Good question. What is the Jewish God's answer to the question of the afterlife? He seems to have done okay for himself, despite (I'm told) not addressing the issue in any serious way. Some Jews don't believe there's any afterlife. How can they follow such a god? Maybe the afterlife isn't a necessary component of faith.

And if you want what you said above, why would they want to give you their essence eternally to make you stronger?

What would you say to a god who told you he would use your soul to make your children safe after you were not there to protect them?

Still, it could work, and if you have these ideas, why not go with them? These things are freebies, afterall.

Because you're demanding something else. But my sanctuary is in the Trunk. I'm a simple mountain spirit, building from the ground up. I'm of the earth. My people are of the earth. They don't aspire to the heavens. They live good, simple lives, where honesty, patience (mountains aren't ever in a rush), and hard work are important. "You can praise God by peeling a spud if you peel it to perfection." Sure, I hope to grow. As my power grows, I'll delve into the other realms. I can get to them easily enough when the time comes. Kokoro's sitting right there, after all.

At least that was my plan.

To be honest, I'm amazed that you play Inferno. I think Goat's system is awesome, but even more metaphysical and arcane than mine. I don't even understand half of what's going on, but I'm enjoying it and doing my best to adapt, to learn, and to even shape the game to my advantage. Likewise, none of us had any idea what the hell was going on in Pantheon 1, but we dealt with frustration and enjoyed it for what it was, right? What's the problem here?

Great! Maybe that's a good approach. The problem has nothing in common with what you're describing. I do play Inferno. And I played Purgatory. Both of which are/were more metaphysical and arcane than this. Both of which are/were great! That means my problem isn't with the metaphysical, arcane nature of the game. Also:

-I would think it's clear after so many years that my problem isn't laziness or lack of enthusiasm.

-The fact that you've had to post several times because I'm not nearly the only one not making trial deadlines might also suggest something other than I'm just a complainer.

-Things haven't gone against me (at least not yet), so I'm not likely upset about that. Especially considering lots of crap has gone against me in past games, yet I didn't quit. (Came close when Xar cheated! Lousy, stinkin'...)

So what IS my problem? I've tried to explain it. How about if I come from this direction... You "can't tell you why the last Trial was important, because it would give away much of what's to come." Making trials mandatory tells us that much anyway. You could have hinted at things in various ways. Results that say, "Your High Priest had a dream that seems as real to him as his waking life. In it, [fill in vague hints]." Or a mysterious stranger visits, talking about some prophecy. Or an Events kind of post about how we noticed that all of our peoples have a similar myth about a planar beast. Yeah, we can all ignore the obvious warning. But we know you're giving a warning, so we'd be wise to try to prepare for it. And we'd get to do so in a way that feels right to us. It also makes it a part of the game and story, rather than a thing that puts off the flow of the turns.

Instead, you demand we do X, Y, and Z with our characters.

[[Syl]]

I sound more like a child complaining to his parents "I can't be me!" because he is being forced into becoming a doctor, when he wants to be a lawyer.

I don't think so. Your profession is your totem. I'm not asking you to change totems. I'm not even asking you to play more like another player (hell, I can't even get people to submit their turns in the way I've outlined in the rules). What I'm asking you to do is realize that there's more to being Shen Mountain than just buffing up your tribe. I'm asking you to take on some collateral duties (chores, if you will), giving significant leeway in choosing which ones you take on. And like any parent, I ask because I think it will build character (in this case, Shen), but more importantly, because I need a little help around here.

Yes, that's more than what you're doing. But your child's complaint is less than what you're doing.

I don't understand what this means, but I don't imagine it's good. Is the complaint against my original simile? Maybe the connotation denotes a lack of skill on my part. How about the Masters compared to the Giants (Covenant, not a weird sports analogy). It's dark in here right now, so I can't quote directly, but near the end of AATE, the giants say 'We do not seek to control the wind, merely use it to get where we want to go.' The Humbled say, 'We're fine with perishing so long as it's on our terms.' Now, we all love the Haruchai, but your chosen handle aside, who comes off better in that story?

That depends on the attendant necessity.

Sure, that's why the other players who chose to participate are no longer the same players.

The past is written in my bones.

I liked that part and believe I said as much. It shows you have the ability to use what your character is in the context of the larger story.

I could even have been given some kind of bonus when looking for information from the past.

Not likely. I said the advantages would be something like a domain. More along the lines of if something happened in the world related to it, people would likely look to you for answers first. Now, if you can bolster your move by referring to something in your character's past results, I'm always for giving that kind of leeway.

What is the Jewish God's answer to the question of the afterlife?

Olam ha'Ba. It's pretty standard, though it's not the focus that Heaven or Hell is to Christians (and faith is pretty much right out the window, if you're curious). However, I'm not asking you to make it a focus, only to have it in your repertoire.

Some Jews don't believe there's any afterlife.

Some of your tribe might not either. Judaism is as much an ascribed, cultural role as it is a chosen one, so there is that to take into account. If Mormonism was a race (a cultural construct in itself), you could just as easily say that I am evidence that Mormons don't believe in God.

How can they follow such a god? Maybe the afterlife isn't a necessary component of faith.

This sounds more like an ex post facto justification than something you planned. Let's hope you're right. However, since I've never mentioned Judaism as one of the inspirational or underlying models for this game (considering I speak Hebrew, probably something I'd mention), I'd say it's dicey.

Because you're demanding something else.

Unfair. Remember the poll? I gave everyone here the opportunity to demonstrate the superiority of their view. Yours didn't win. But since no one model commanded a significant lead, I tried to incorporate some from everybody's, including yours. Maybe that's not good enough for you, but painting me as a tyrant is uncalled for... in this case, anyway.

But my sanctuary is in the Trunk.

That's like building a bridge that ends where it begins. Maybe it'd give you a nice view, but it wouldn't go anywhere.

I'm a simple mountain spirit, building from the ground up.

No, you're a god. And while what that exactly means in this game is something I've left to players to both discover and define, it entails a bit more responsibility than a mere spirit, especially since of all the players, you seem to prize faith from your followers more highly.

I'm of the earth. My people are of the earth.

All I can do is shake my head at this. You don't seem to want to listen to anything I say about the other realms. I can see, even somewhat appreciate why you wouldn't want to work much with crown (even though, as Murrin said, a high peak puts you closer to it than most). But Root? Scuff your feet in your holy place and you're practically there! In fact, the only thing really keeping it from not being in Root is that would defeat the purpose of having a holy place. You might as well say, 'I'm a plainsman and like to keep my feet on the ground, so I'm going to pretend my basement and attic don't exist.' Sure, the basement's kind of scary, and the attic is cramped and dusty. I'm not asking you to move your family into it, though. But if you don't check them once in a while... you could find yourself with some pretty hefty repairs. Leaks in the basement, bats in the rafters...

As my power grows, I'll delve into the other realms. I can get to them easily enough when the time comes. Kokoro's sitting right there, after all.

Well, don't let my broader knowledge of the game dissuade you from your confidence.

That means my problem isn't with the metaphysical, arcane nature of the game.

Then stop complaining about it. And if that's the case, doesn't it just come back to you not liking what I'm asking you to do, invalidating your implication both before and later in your post that the failing is mine for not making things clear enough?

Fine. I'm an asshole for trying to guide people to where I think they need to be and for trying to set them up for what's to come. And from what some players have said, people are waiting for something to happen. So am I, but you guys are not yet ready, either as a group or individually, for what I'm going to bring. Your stats alone should tell you that.

I would think it's clear after so many years that my problem isn't laziness or lack of enthusiasm.

Not in this game, it's not. I've received nothing from you in this game but complaints, recalcitrance, and flippant disregard, despite answering more of your questions and working more with you on your submissions and results than I have with any other player (except maybe Menolly, but that's expected and at least she's nice about it).

The fact that you've had to post several times because I'm not nearly the only one not making trial deadlines might also suggest something other than I'm just a complainer.

Perhaps, but they're nice enough to at least lie about it and not laugh about how they intentionally didn't play because they didn't like the game. Well, Menolly said she'd be leaving, but she did so in advance and fortunately changed her mind (with no suggestion to do so from me, I would add).

While it's your right to participate if you want to, it's mine to decide whether I want a player with such an attitude. If it didn't violate my ideas of fairness, I'd probably be inviting you to withdraw from the game as well.

Of course, if you truly speak for the many, I'd rather fold up the board right now.

You could have hinted at things in various ways.

Who's to say I haven't? No, I haven't sent messenger elves to your door, or written a big sign across the sky. I will never intentionally reveal anything to a player that they have no reason to know.

Besides which, I pretty much did exactly what you suggest for Acropolis I. There were so many hints I gave out of broader things going on, that I was sure somebody would put it together eventually. For instance, did anyone realize that over half of the players had rather mysterious free servants whose names ended in -ker? There was a whole story going on there, tied into the king, that nobody even scratched the surface of.

Even the battle at the end, which I telegraphed pretty far in advance, was a lot harder for the players than I had anticipated, leading me to pull some punches.

Or an Events kind of post about how we noticed that all of our peoples have a similar myth about a planar beast.

Why should I create your myths for you? To me, that's telling you who you are. Besides which, you'd reject it anyway—as you have the cosmology I've presented, as you have the roles I've told you people expect a god to have. You want me to give you knowledge you haven't earned, but you spurn the chances I've already offered you.

And besides, the Planar Beast is a perfect example of a wild goose chase that such 'hints' can turn into.

But we know you're giving a warning, so we'd be wise to try to prepare for it.

I think you're overly generous in your assessment. I can't even get people to listen to me about how I would like their turns submitted, no matter if I announce it in the forum, put it in the rules, and point people to the new rules.

And we'd get to do so in a way that feels right to us.

Then why can't you do so in the Trial? There's so much variety in what you can do, so much leeway in how you do it, that I find your objection incomprehensible.

But you know, if you don't want my gifts, I will just accept the dishonor of your refusal. And if you think you can run a better game, I'll be the first one to sign up.

[Fist and Faith]

Yes, Shen is a mountain spirit. At least that's his origin. He ascended to godhood. His original form is why he did and planned as he did. Most of his existence was nothing more than the mountain. He knew he had to grow, but he was planning it in a certain way. He wasn't pretending the basement and attic didn't exist. He just wasn't there yet.

Anyway, that's what the plan was. I'll bow out now. I've done nothing but try to explain what it is I don't like about this. Obviously, it's your game, and you can have that in there. Maybe I would have figured out a way to work it into Shen. Maybe I would have just sucked it up and done it. But your attitude has soured me to the whole thing. Nobody called you an asshole. Nobody gave you the finger. Nobody asked you to hold their hand. Goat was being polite with the "harsh" comment. More polite than you've been, and I'm done taking it.

But I do apologize for a misunderstanding. I wasn't laughing about intentionally not playing. I was laughing about not having anything useful to say. I thought about the trial before the deadline, trying to figure out how to make it work. I didn't come up with anything, so I figured I'd just take whatever penalty there was. I've never claimed to be overly creative, so you need not point it out. Sometimes I hit roadblocks that I can't figure out how to get past. Xar has also wondered why I didn't just do this or that. Sue me for lack of imagination.