My grandson has a behavioural disorder

[Iolanthe]

Patrick is 7 and seems quite normal to me, except for the tantrums. If he is sent to his room he shouts "I don't want to stay in my room", throws things, slams the door, sometimes fights my son to get out, then he starts making a loud noise that isn't crying, just a noise, at regular intervals.

Apparently he has trouble with queues, forgets to put his hand up in class, and has been in trouble for fighting (taking after his grandmother I'm afraid! I had to see a child psycologist when I was about 6 but he said there was nothing wrong with me except I wanted a bike!).

I did witness one rather strange incident, well, it seemed strange to me. Patrick brought home a letter about a competition at Christmas. All the children were to make a decoration for the Christmas tree and there was to be a prize. He insisted he wanted to make a calendar! My son explained to him very carefully, twice, that he couldn't make a calendar as it would be too large for the tree. He wouldn't have it, and ended up having a tantrum as I've described above.

He has been observed at school and a report is to be put together for the doctor, then he will have to see a pediatrician.

Mentally he is very alert, and his maths is excellent.

My son has mentioned Asperger's Syndrome, and I just found this on the web which seems to fit him quite well:

Oppositional defiant disorder
Around one in ten children under the age of 12 years are thought to have oppositional defiant disorder (ODD), with boys outnumbering girls by two to one. Some of the typical behaviours of a child with ODD include:
Easily angered, annoyed or irritated
Frequent temper tantrums
Argues frequently with adults, particularly the most familiar adults in their lives, such as parents
Refuses to obey rules
Seems to deliberately try to annoy or aggravate others
Low self-esteem
Low frustration threshold
Seeks to blame others for any misfortunes or misdeeds.

However, we will have to wait for a diagnosis. I've never personally come across disorders such as these before. Does anyone else have experience in this? I will be having the boys next week for 3 days each, one at a time as I can't cope with both of them at once. This will give me a good opportunity to see how Patrick does behave over a longer period. It isn't the same seeing him for a couple of hours with his family once a week. I've only had him to stay overnight before with his younger brother.

[Menolly]

Ah, potentially welcome to my world.

Feel free to drop in to the Asperger's Syndrome & Autism Spectrum Disorders thread I started in The Loresraat when I first joined the Watch. It hasn't been active in a while, but you may gain some insight from what is already shared there, and there are several of us who will be happy to continue the conversation.

[Iolanthe]

Thank you, Menolly. It will be a comfort to talk to people who are familiar with Aspergers, if that is what he has, as I am totally out of my depth here. It will be a few weeks, I think, before we know.

He wasn't too bad this afternoon, but although he got told off, and started the usual paddy, A (my son) was amazing, calm, got Patrick to sit down, and sort of talked him out of it. I hope I have as much patience if he has a paddy while he is here.

A made me take a test on the computer this afternoon, about 60 questions, but apparently I'm normal. A however is convinced he has, or has had, Aspergers!

[aliantha]

Best of luck with you and yours, Iolanthe. I think a lot of today's adults might have been diagnosed with something on the autism spectrum, had it been better known/diagnosed back then.

[Savor Dam]

I think a lot of today's adults might have been diagnosed with something on the autism spectrum, had it been better known/diagnosed back then.

Amen! I spent over a half-century with this before figuring it out. Without knowing what was "wrong", I managed over the years to learn some coping skills and get by, but it never goes away.

A few years ago, I took a test (at Menolly's urging) similar to the one Iolanthe mentioned above... and I scored near the top of the potential Aspergers scale.

Dam-sel seems to have a bit of it too, and there is little doubt that Dam-et has a full-blown case. At 19, he is huge bundle of Aspie and ODD behaviors. What we've learned from Menolly is helping us all deal with each other better.

[aliantha]

I was actually thinking about my ex-husband....

[Menolly]

While AS is known in girls, currently it is a predominantly male syndrome...

[Iolanthe]

Best of luck with you and yours, Iolanthe. I think a lot of today's adults might have been diagnosed with something on the autism spectrum, had it been better known/diagnosed back then.

Thanks, Aliantha. In the test I did today I scored 23, but my son said he scored 31 when he did it the other day. Giving the answers was quite funny as I would say one thing and A then said "no, you do this and this" which I didn't realise at all! I shall be more aware in future of exactly how I am behaving.

Feel free to drop in to the Asperger's Syndrome & Autism Spectrum Disorders thread I started in The Loresraat when I first joined the Watch. It hasn't been active in a while, but you may gain some insight from what is already shared there, and there are several of us who will be happy to continue the conversation.

Thanks also, Menolly. I'm goggle eyed with reading a lot of the posts in there and now understand a lot more, and am more worried than I was before as well.

I made a few notes as I would have forgotten half of what I read otherwise.

These apply to Patrick:
Eye contact - he displays difficulty in this. I've heard A say to him many times "look at me" but Patrick has refused. The other week he even put his hands over his ears - the first time he had done this A said.

Physical contact - yes. At 7 he is like a dog that gradually weedles itself onto your lap. And he leans.

Excessive talking - the health visitor who went to the house commented on the fact that Patrick didn't stop talking!

Patrick is very good at art, like his father. And when A did the IQ test at school he was the second highest they had ever had.

I don't know whether the above posts can be transferred to the thread in the Loresraat, but I will certainly drop in there from now on, particularly when we have the diagnosis.

The health visitor will produce a report next Tuesday, this then has to go to the family doctor, who will then arrange an appointment with a pediatrician. A is not in a position to go any other route - no money, and we can't help in that direction either.

[Savor Dam]

I don't know whether the above posts can be transferred to the thread in the Loresraat...

ali can almost certainly do that (or make it a separate thread there), being a mod here in GenDisc. Her call, though.

[JazFusion]

Yes, please drop by! My son was diagnosed with high-functioning autism last year. I will try to add my story when I get the chance!

[Fist and Faith]

Probably something in the autistic spectrum in there. But that's not all of it. Not with that temper. Sounds exactly like one of my stepsons. After being absolutely firm on the rules, and giving out the promised punishments (consequences, whatever) instead of giving chance after chance, he learned to behave. He didn't and doesn't feel better, but he acted better.

But he also hates me, moved in with his father when his father finally decided to be involved with his sons, and won't even talk to his mother all that much. We don't hear terribly much about what happens at his father's, but we hear enough to know that he still has various problems. Also in school.

Video games is a huge part of it for him. Truly a Playstation Nation kid. He always got so wound up on them, and played for many hours every day. We limited the games, but many hours or only a couple, he had behaviors when he was told it was time to stop.

Anger about many other things, though, not just the games.

Important to not give in to the behaviors! He'll run your lives if you allow it.

[Iolanthe]

That's a sad story Fist.

A has always been firm with both boys - naughty step, which they accept, he's even allowed them to choose their own punishments - currently 1 minute early to bed every time they are naughty - they will come up to me when I arrive and tell me how many minutes they have. But those temper tantrums are terrible. I admit that the other week I had to go up to the end of the garden so I couldn't hear Patrick and I got a bit upset.

Patrick simply will not accept that there are certain things he should not do. Stupid things set him off, like not wanting to try some new trousers on that his mother had bought him with the labels still on. There was a big tantrum because he couldn't take the labels off first.

[Menolly]

Consistency and routine are paramount with kids on the spectrum. You can't discipline once for something, and not follow through when the same behavior happens again. However, these kids all seem to show the tendency to make great attorneys one day. When you discipline, explain why they are being disciplined, and not just the standard, "because I said it is the rule." Make the discipline a teaching moment; hopefully the lesson learned, if learned at that time, is retained longer with a logical explanation behind it.

Stupid things set him off, like not wanting to try some new trousers on that his mother had bought him with the labels still on. There was a big tantrum because he couldn't take the labels off first.

Definitely read up on SID. Clothing labels are a big issue for hypersensitive kids. Sounds like there may be a classic case going on...

Once you understand the potential triggers, "stupid things" do not seem so stupid to us neurotypicals.

[Iolanthe]

I'm sorry, Menolly, you'll have to spell out what SID is. I googled but couldn't find anything that was appropriate.

[Savor Dam]

I'm sorry, Menolly, you'll have to spell out what SID is. I googled but couldn't find anything that was appropriate.

Sensory integration dysfunction (or disorder)

However, these kids all seem to show the tendency to make great attorneys one day.

Since he was barely more than a tot, Dam-et has been such a negotiator and persistent self-advocate that Dam-sel and I have said of him "He will either be a great lawyer someday...or need a great lawyer!"

[Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm]

Iolanthe, psychology is one of the least reliable sciences. Even a highly knowledgeable specialist may get lost in it, or maybe moreover. Just to start with, many symptoms of various disorders can be present in nearly anyone. And an enormous number of them and a diagnosed disorder can be found in some of the most wonderful people.

If by the test you mean the one by Simon Baron-Cohen with 50 questions, 31 is below the "generally taken to indicate Asperger's Syndrome or high-functioning autism" line, and being even above that is also no guarantee. From an intro to the test itself: "The test is not a means for making a diagnosis, however, and many who score above 32 and even meet the diagnostic criteria for mild autism or Asperger's report no difficulty functioning in their everyday lives."

I have a score of 30 currently - that's a little more than a hair away, but I think it isn't something to rely on much anyway. Also I haven't only taken the test. I've thought on its quality - I think it's quite crude, though it could be hard to make it much better. And that's the general fate of any psychological criteria.

Curiously, I have more answers against AS for the external symptoms - about behavior, and towards it for the internal - how I feel, what I enjoy. Also I mentioned my answers earlier in life could get me around the highest. For instance, I have the thing Menolly mentioned in her thread about conversation topics hidden, I try to avoid it mostly, because I know it's a symptom and generally irritates people if overdone. Actually, me not staying purposefully and forcibly far away from such topics is quite rare now. It may be saying something about how I can feel here, see what the Effytars thread about avatars turned into...

[Iolanthe]

Thanks, SD, I found it. And thanks for your input Effy.

Think I'll wait until there is a diagnosis then delve further.

[Fist and Faith]

Patrick simply will not accept that there are certain things he should not do. Stupid things set him off, like not wanting to try some new trousers on that his mother had bought him with the labels still on. There was a big tantrum because he couldn't take the labels off first.

That's a difficult one. People like he seems to be feel those tags so strongly it's impossible for them to "just deal with it." Like asking you or me to try on pants with lit matches in them. When he's older, he'll be able to understand things more, and he'll suffer through it when necessary. Now, I'd try to avoid the situation. Maybe it can't be avoided, but understand he may not just be acting up. My wife has sensory issues, and she can laugh about it. (And I can make fun of her. ) She sleeps with weighted blankets. She wears stuff inside out. She sees the computer screen flicker and says it drives her nuts and gives her a headache. I have not the slightest idea what she's talking about. Then she explains the refresh rate (I think that's what it is?), and tells me about other people she know with the same problem.

Maybe think of it all like that paper that tastes bitter to some people, but has no taste to others. Phenylthiocarbamide

[Vraith]

Crap...I had so much to say, retyped and deleted so much stuff. I'll just say I hope everyone looking at the tyke is excellent, and all goes as best it can.
Note: there isn't necessarily anything huge wrong, or even anything at all...and if there is, it's early, the best time to catch hold of it if there is.

[JazFusion]

My son has never had an anger or temper problem, but I know some of my friends with children on the spectrum have said their children will have complete meltdowns over certain things. Is there a pattern to his tantrums? Are they stemming from something related? Or is it just when he doesn't want to do something?

I noticed with my son (who is five), he would be defiant about weird things. There was a period of time when he wouldn't take a bath because he thought the water would overflow. This made absolutely no sense to me, but to him it was a real fear.

Does your grandson have any specific interests? For instance, my son will watch hours of train crossing lights, toilets flushing, fire alarms going off, etc. And when he plays with his peers, he usually steers the play to crossing lights, toilet, and fire alarms. Since being in a special education program at school for a year, he's made leaps and bounds. So now he can actually play what the other children are playing. For the most part.

Also, he is a hand flapper. Sometimes this will be accompanied by him humming to himself. My husband is actually an Aspie, and does the same thing. He explained it to me as intently focusing on one thing. It's self-soothing, and typically happens when they are excited about something, or they are overwhelmed that they need to calm down.

Every child is different. Even those on the spectrum. I would definitely have him tested. Early intervention is key, and there's no harm in a pediatric neurologist testing him.