It's consistent with the narrative that states that pregnancy is similar to disease or injury. It's also totally insulting to women, forwarding the idea that they have no control over their pre-coital reproductive choices.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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The point isn't to make a 1:1 comparison between pregnancy and drowning, so saying, in effect, 'they're not the same,' isn't exactly disproving the argument.
Or, to put it another way, there are three basic methods of getting a point across—pathos, ethos, and logos, known as Aristotle's Appeals. This meme uses pathos, an emotional appeal, with a little bit of ethos to give it weight. You can counter it with logic, but you can't discount it for not being a logical argument (which would be kind of futile, anyway, since it mocks the illogicalness of the opposing view).
And as you admit, it's catchy.
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.”
-George Steiner
[Syl Embattled] wrote:And as you admit, it's catchy.
But can you dance to it?
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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I agree with cail, and I think it's a shame that people compare pregnancy and birth, to drowning and death. Do you think they support animal rights tho? It seems people who have such a negative view of life wouldn't care about life for anything?
--Andy
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."
Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.
I believe in the One who says there is life after this.
Now tell me how much more open can my mind be?
[Syl Embattled] wrote:And as you admit, it's catchy.
But can you dance to it?
Syl doesn't dance.
Cybr, I'm not sure what you mean. I support animal rights, to an extent (namely, to the end of my fork, much to my vegetarian better half's chagrin). I'm "pro-choice," but I think I have a rather positive view of life. The reverse of your argument is along the lines of the rather nuance-free outlook that those who are "pro-life" (quotation marks used here and above intentionally) must naturally oppose the death penalty... or in this case, be vegan's bordering on an almost Jainist philosophy.
I get where you guys are coming from, honestly, but I think you're rather missing the point and looking for offense in an oppositional viewpoint. Thinking that preventing access to birth control measures is akin to preventing access to PFDs is not the same thing as equating pregnancy to drowning.
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.”
-George Steiner
Remember that as hyperbolic as these comparisons are, part of the reason it's a big issue right now (as alluded to in some of the references pictured above) is not just regarding pregnancy but pregnancy from rape. In that case, the woman is denied planning, protection, and choice, and the event can be psychologically damaging.
This example conflates it with the general unwanted pregnancy case, but the influence of the pregnancy-from-rape issue is strongly apparent in their approach.
It's not meant to be taken seriously, of course, but simply a way of highlighting - through exaggerated analogy - how they see (some of) the anti-abortion arguments.
It would be a great step forward even if only elective abortions were outlawed except in the case of rape and incest, the fabled poster-child (isn't that ironic) of "pro-choice": Rape and incest account for less than 1% of abortions.
Syl wrote:The point isn't to make a 1:1 comparison between pregnancy and drowning, so saying, in effect, 'they're not the same,' isn't exactly disproving the argument.
There is no comparison. The purported "helpless victim" position of more than 99% of women who seek abortions for their unplanned pregnancies is a convenient myth, and a harmful one.
"Pro-choice". You obliterate every single choice a pre-born person might ever make in their life. How ironic that is.
Murrin wrote:pregnancy from rape. In that case, the woman is denied planning, protection, and choice, and the event can be psychologically damaging.
In the case of abortion, planning, protection, and choice are denied the other human being in the equation; for whom it's not just damaging, but fatal.
The truth can be a sword sometimes. I am not easy wielding it. But it burns within me that lives are torn apart and thrown into the trash as an everyday occurrence. And we joke about it.
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle. -Philo of Alexandria
ahhhh... if only all our creativity in wickedness could be fixed by "Corrupt a Wish." - Linna Heartlistener
That acerbically humorous quip about life jackets was an attempt to point out how idiotic that politician's statements about rape were. A woman's body can "shut down" or somehow prevent a pregnancy because she gets raped? *roll eyes*
Now...my long-held position is that I support a woman's right to choose to abort her unborn child, especially if the pregnancy occurs as a result of rape or incest. As Deer of the Dawn notes, those circumstances are actually quite rare. Where I draw the line, though, is when some women choose to use abortion as "birth control of last resort"--they were either too lazy, immature, and/or irresponsible to use proper birth control methods beforehand and now simply don't want the burden of a child. This is not the intended purpose of abortion and it should not be misused in this manner.
My girlfriend from college had an abortion--this was quite some time after we broke upso I was not involved. That decision still haunts her to this day. My wife could have had one--young, unmarried, the circumstances were not ideal, etc--but she chose adoption instead. Although she still regrets having to do that, at least it is a decision with which she can cope; the alternative was unthinkable to her.
On the topic of recent political discussions about restricting access to abortions...well, repealing Roe v Wade or seriously restricting abortions will not work because women were able to obtain this procedure before RvW, either the low-cost "back-alley" version or a trusted doctor labelling it as a "miscarriage" or the high-cost trip to Europe. If repealed or restricted these venues will reopen.
Now...for the opinion I hold that usually raises an eyebrow. If a woman is coming in for her third abortion, regardless of the circumstances, then she will be sterilized to prevent the risk of becoming pregnant. By her actions she has demonstrated that she is not responsible enough to be a parent so the choice will be taken away from her. Draconian, yes. A clear violation of Libertarian principles, yes. However, I see no reason to make a handful of unborn children suffer simply to keep some woman able to live her life irresponsibly.
deer of the dawn wrote:Drowning results in death. Pregnancy results in life. etc.
Stillbirth? Death in childbirth? Also, as someone who survived drowning as a child, I am here to testify that it doesn't always kill you.
See, this is the problem with generalizations...
deer of the dawn wrote:But it burns within me that lives are torn apart and thrown into the trash as an everyday occurrence.
What burns *me* is that pro-lifers have put "the pre-born child" on a pedestal, thereby making its rights more important than at least half of the existing population -- and at the same time, not caring about the child's post-birth quality of life at all.
EZ Board Survivor
"Dreaming isn't good for you unless you do the things it tells you to." -- Three Dog Night (via the GI)
Now...my long-held position is that I support a woman's right to choose to abort her unborn child, especially if the pregnancy occurs as a result of rape or incest.
This makes no sense to me.
It's either life or it's not, there are no exceptions.
The fact that it's a product of rape or incest doesn't matter, the child is innocent.
How can you call for protecting one but not the other?
I'm pro-choice though.
I wish adoption was an easier choice.
The woman comes first.
There are all kinds of medical reasons that merit an abortion.
If my wife or daughter needs it I don't want some moral restriction endangering their lives.
And I agree with the sterilization idea too, although I'd make it after the 2nd one.
Yea, I frown on elective abortion (IE: Not for medical reasons, nor rape, nor incest), but, don't believe it's my place to outlaw it in the first Trimester, though, I am greatly opposed to it after the first Trimester, and absolutely believe it should be illegal in the last Trimester, unless for Medical reasons (By the third trimester, I don't believe there is still a legitimate reason to have not gotten the abortion for rape/incest, if you wanted one). I also believe, when someone is leaning towards an elective abortion, or thinking about it, their freinds, family, Doctor, etc, should make every attempt at convincing the woman to carry the baby to term. Although there are some women who it's not a big deal to, most, I believe, do agonize over it for years after the abortion, even when they know circumstances made the abortion the best choice, and sometimes, they flat out regret having made the decision, and wish they had it all to do over again, and make a different decision.
I too have long advocated sterilization for a 3rd abortion, by that time, it definitely looks very much like irresponsibility. Only, what 1 in 3 fertilizations makes it beyond the first trimester, I believe? Couple that with available birth control, the morning after pill, and allowing abortion in the first trimester, and I have a very difficult time accepting later term abortions are necessary for non-medical reasons.
I Never Fail To Be Astounded By The Things We Do For Promises - Ronnie James Dio (All The Fools Sailed Away)
Remember, everytime you drag someone through the mud, you're down in the mud with them
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Where are we going...and... WHY are we in a handbasket?
High Lord Tolkien wrote:This makes no sense to me.
It's either life or it's not, there are no exceptions.
The fact that it's a product of rape or incest doesn't matter, the child is innocent.
How can you call for protecting one but not the other?
If I were a woman, I would not want to carry to term a child, innocent though it may be, that was a result of non-consensual intercourse. Logically, I would know that the child is innocent but emotionally every time I looked at them all I would be able to see is the face of my attacker. Although I am a firm believer in "get over it", a phrase I use when trying to encourage people to have emotional fortitude, you cannot get over something when it is in your face every day.
Wow--I thought I was the only one who argued for sterilization after a third non-medically-necessary abortion. It is good to know I am not the only one who arrived at that conclusion.
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:Wow--I thought I was the only one who argued for sterilization after a third non-medically-necessary abortion. It is good to know I am not the only one who arrived at that conclusion.[/color]
Yea, I think you and I are the only ones I've ever seen introduce it into a debate (though I didn't this time, I have in the past), but, it seems there's more head nodding now when it's brought up. It used to be a really well loaded gun pointed at your head 5 - 10 years ago.
I Never Fail To Be Astounded By The Things We Do For Promises - Ronnie James Dio (All The Fools Sailed Away)
Remember, everytime you drag someone through the mud, you're down in the mud with them
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Where are we going...and... WHY are we in a handbasket?
sindatur wrote:Yea, I think you and I are the only ones I've ever seen introduce it into a debate (though I didn't this time, I have in the past), but, it seems there's more head nodding now when it's brought up. It used to be a really well loaded gun pointed at your head 5 - 10 years ago.
I have direct personal knowledge of this--I got called some fairly interesting and creative names when I mentioned this on an older board where I am still a member (but haven't been a regular poster in a couple of years).
