The Lords of Revelstone - Critical missing element?

[aTOMiC]

I remember reading Lord Foul's Bane in high school. I was on the lookout for anything I could find in our school library that was sci-fi or fantasy oriented and interestingly enough I found a trilogy of books that have influenced my life ever since. The stories were simply amazing and engrossing, filled with complex, interesting characters that still resonate with me today. I devoured all three volumes in about a week and was left feeling both satisfied and hungry for more.

When I heard that there was a second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant I begged my mother to help me buy the first book and after a quick trip to the mall I suddenly found myself opening a crisp new paper back of The Wounded Land. I was so excited I didn't know if I could concentrate enough to even read the book but somehow I found a way to relax and just dive in.

As expected I was filled with great anticipation for the moment that Thomas Covenant would return to the Land but I made a conscious effort to try to take my time and really enjoy the opening chapters as much as I could. Though things had changed in Covenant's life and his real world community it was still very familiar. The introduction of new characters seemed only to enhance what had been established in the earlier books (yes even Linden Avery at least for while).

Then once Covenant and Linden were translated to the Land I found that things had changed far more in the fantasy world than I could have imagined. It was at this point that I became a bit disappointed though I didn't really understand why at the time. The stories were still very exciting if a bit alien given that I had forged my appreciation of the story on a foundation depicted in the earlier books which brings me to the point of this thread.

I wonder just how much my devotion to the Chronicles rests on my interest in the Land as it existed in the first three books. The Land was filled with large communities of Stonedowners and Woodhelven. The Council, the Lords of Revelstone were terribly interesting and exciting characters not only able to perform fascinating feats of magic but also provide an unshakable foundation of good in the face of the overwhelming evil that Lord Foul unleashed upon the world. And then there was Lord Mhoram. A relatively minor character in the first book, Mhoram's character arc alone was worthy of my interest.

But I was now reading the Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant and nearly all trace of the wonderful characters I grew to admire and enjoy were swept away, replaced by The Clave, undone by thousands of years of Lord Foul's subtle machinations.

Though there were still Haruchai and Giants and descendants of the people of the Land to fill part of the void left by the Lords I have come to understand that, from my perspective, no part of the continuing story can replace them.

I did very much like The One Tree and White Gold Wielder and have re read them many times. The Last Chronicles are a bit of another matter. I have not re read any of them as yet. Perhaps because the story is incomplete or perhaps because they generally feature a character I don't particular care for. In any case it has finally really dawned on me that it wasn't just Thomas Covenant that I found so intriguing those many years ago when I read the first Chronicles it was, in equal measure, the Lords of Revelstone.

IMHO

[Iolanthe]

I know exactly what you mean aTOMiC. I too have felt the loss of the Lords and Mhoram in particular. However, I have continued on to read all the 3rd Chrons. Perhaps it is something to do with the age at which you read the 1st Chronicles? I was into my 30s when I started reading them. Perhaps being much younger you were more impressionable, wanted more of the same thing, not change. I've just started reading LFB again - for the umpteenth time. I never tire of Covenent's reaction to the land, to his awakening nerves, to Revelstone, and his eventual acceptance of the land, especially those who love him, and Foamfollower in particular.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

I know exactly what you mean aTOMiC. I too have felt the loss of the Lords and Mhoram in particular. However, I have continued on to read all the 3rd Chrons. Perhaps it is something to do with the age at which you read the 1st Chronicles? I was into my 30s when I started reading them. Perhaps being much younger you were more impressionable, wanted more of the same thing, not change.

Umm, could well be a matter of age; I read LFB during the early 2009, and the 3rd chrons last year; have no pronlems with the Land's downward spiraling fate, on the contrary, I find the new themes quite intriguing. I'm in my early 30's. The Tolkien-esquenisms bothered me a tad in the first three tomes, and never found the haruchai/Mhoram characters that interesting, to tell the truth. TWL plunged far deeper into original concepts (a sun gone bananas, Foul's rather crazier xanatos gambits...), and in some sense concentrated far more into character psychology. Well, different people prefer different aspects of the same story. I'm mainly a 2nd chrons and FR/AATE fan.

[wayfriend]

That's a good post, aTOMiC.

I guess, when an author revisits an earlier creation, this is the risk he takes. That the old he pushes out, to make way for the new, is so important to someone that something is lost.

All you can do is hope that the joy of the new matches the love of the old.

Certainly, the first Chronicles has a fair amount of Tolkienesque world-building, a fair amount of Land-loveliness, and a fair amount of idealistic culture. If this is what you love, then it hurts to see it go.

I've written earlier opinions ("Epic Vision") tha the ordinary people of the Land in the first Chronicles, Mhoram and Lords and Stonedowners and Woodhelvenin, are the true heroes. And that they have a quality about them which we admire and desire and seek. And that Covenant succeeds because he learns this thing from them. So I can certainly see why you might miss it.

The joy of the new in the Second Chronicles is that Covenant brings it back with him, and gives it back to them where they have lost it. That Sunder and Hollian and Memla gain from Covenant what Covenant gained from Mhoram and the Lords and everyone else in the first Chronicles.

[aTOMiC]

Frostheart this kind of reminds me of the difficulty I have explaining to someone who became a fan of the Simpsons recently why every season after season 10 sucks. "What's wrong with it?" They ask. I say "Have you seen Season 4 or 5?" "Yes, but they are just okay I guess." They reply. Knowing at this point to discuss the matter further is pointless I simply tell them it was pleasant speaking to them and to have a good day.
Seriously though its simply a matter of perspective.
Kids who were 10 when The Phantom Menace was released don't really see what's so wrong with the movie or why people older than they are hate Jar Jar Binks. They aren't wrong in any way shape matter or form. They simply have a different perspective.

I began reading the Chrons when I was 15 and my whole perspective was very different back then compared to today. Heck I'd only read The Hobbit at that point so my view of fantasy on the whole was very limited.

[I'm Murrin]

I was very impressed with The Wounded Land. I think it was a great move, taking things out of the comfort zone, out of the Tolkienesque landscape and into a harsh wilderness - and by making it a distortion of the place we already knew, all the better, break the place we'd come to love and have us feel the loss just as the character does.

Plus bold moves like that make good stories. If Donaldson had gone back to the Land and it'd been just as it was before, he'd just be another hack churning out the same things over an over.

I think one of the flaws in the Last Chronicles may be that the Land is pretty much a recreation of the Land in the First Chrons, but with different people living in it. You know what would have been awesome? If the return to the Land in Runes had started with it seeming all fine and fixed and back to normal (except for the new looming threat of Foul)... and then Linden had her feet knocked out from under her, kind of like Covenant did (again) with the revelation of the Clave at the climax of TWL.

[Vraith]

In 3 ways, precisely, I'm anti-Frostie...
1] it isn't age.
2] Thank GOD they aren't at all like Tolkien.
3] I liked the Lords and Har.
OTOH, I'm pro-Frostie in more important ways: for all the other reasons in the post [down-spiral fate/psychology/themes/concepts] and one additional one: How could SRD have continued what Atomic loved [and I did too] WITHOUT making it dull/repetitive/lackluster? [Though in an entirely different way than Atomic misses the first series.]
I think I'm saying [and may have been trying to say for a while across many threads without realizing it, and now I'll have to think about THAT for a while] IF the later were written more like the original, we'd probably be seeing pretty much the same fights/arguments/questions/elations/disappointments/criticisms we've BEEN seeing...except different peeps espousing different "sides." [specifically NOT meaning there are only two sides with dogs in the fight, or even that it is a fight...that kind of thing is more Harry Potter....everything is simpler there.]
EDITED TO ADD: I must take a really long time to compose posts...like a million people posted responses while I was writing this one.

[aTOMiC]

Plus bold moves like that make good stories. If Donaldson had gone back to the Land and it'd been just as it was before, he'd just be another hack churning out the same things over an over. (I think one of the flaws in the Last Chronicles may be that the Land is pretty much a recreation of the Land in the First Chrons, but with different people living in it.)

Murrin I couldn't agree with you more.
I believe the course Donaldson took in the Second Chronicles was the correct one.
When I read The Wounded Land back when I was about 16 I couldn't help myself that I longed for a second helping of that same wonderful dish.
And like many second helpings it probably would have ruined the unique enjoyment I experienced with the first trilogy.
I think its human nature to want more of what you like.
In this case the hope is that when you get something a little different it feels fresh and satisfying in its own way.
Which the Second Chronicles was ultimately for me.
(Except of course for the inclusion of Linden which is a whole other topic. )

[Frostheart Grueburn]

Well this convo donned wings. Replying more when back in F-land, my mobile just ate a post.

[aTOMiC]

Oh. I just remembered another thing I struggled with when reading the Second Chronicles.

If Covenant was stung or poked or speared by one more freaking insect or jellyfish or deadly poisonous something, sending him into a coma or fever madness I would have thrown the whole pile of books through the window.

Spoiler

There of course are the memory issues TC is facing now in the Last Chrons that are troublingly similar.

[peter]

Oh. I just remembered another thing I struggled with when reading the Second Chronicles.

If Covenant was stung or poked or speared by one more freaking insect or jellyfish or deadly poisonous something, sending him into a coma or fever madness I would have thrown the whole pile of books through the window.

Spoiler

There of course are the memory issues TC is facing now in the Last Chrons that are troublingly similar.

This was the tecnique SRD used to give Linen center-stage and yes, it grated on me as well. But on the whole - devastated as I was that the Land I loved, and the Lords I loved were no more - as the read went on I became more and more caught up with the way this was done. Sunder's dicovery of the 'goodness' of the treasure -berries, Brinn's hand cathing TC's arm through the dungeon grill, Honinscrave's rubbing his jaw after the meeting in the Sarangrave - what did he say, something about the respect of the Haruchai being a weighty matter - Yes! It was all there and as Wayfriend said TC brought it all back with him and revealed it over the course of the three books. How in the end could I not love it. In the words of the Haruchai 'Did it not serve us well?'

[deer of the dawn]

A major theme of the continuing Chronicles is loss. There is a dwindling of diversity and sacredness and story. There is an ever-increasing focus on relationship and thought process.

Spoiler

(The Insequent are so vivid and unexpected and jarring as a foil to the mounting wave of entropy and destruction blasting the Land.)

My hope, my faith, is that in The Last Dark, SRD will give us back so much of these things through the relationship and thinking/imagination/desires of Covenant and Linden.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

This was the tecnique SRD used to give Linen center-stage and yes, it grated on me as well.

Yup, would have been fairer for the Land if Wool had featured more prominently--especially during Lord Foulard's preternatural winter. He was very nefarious as well in turning one of the Giants into Satinsfist.

[Iolanthe]

This was the tecnique SRD used to give Linen center-stage and yes, it grated on me as well.

Yup, would have been fairer for the Land if Wool had featured more prominently--especially during Lord Foulard's preternatural winter. He was very nefarious as well in turning one of the Giants into Satinsfist.

[ninjaboy]

Atomic, I felt that exact same thing..

When I read the First Chronichles I would have been 10-11 years old and absolutely fell in love with the Land..

Covenant was a right prick, but I endured that to read more about the Land, and all the beauties and wonders it contained. For me the land itself was always a main character, and reading the 2nd Chrons was very challenging because the Land had been utterly raped.. I still loved and absorbed every word of the stories, but I guess it made me more passionate about the defenders of the Land - Hamako and they Waynhim etc..

I guess I really loved the romanticism of "living at one with the Land" in harmony, almost in worship of it. I can only hope there is room for more of that before the conclusion to the series.

[peter]

This was the tecnique SRD used to give Linen center-stage and yes, it grated on me as well.

Yup, would have been fairer for the Land if Wool had featured more prominently--especially during Lord Foulard's preternatural winter. He was very nefarious as well in turning one of the Giants into Satinsfist.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

This was the tecnique SRD used to give Linen center-stage and yes, it grated on me as well.

Yup, would have been fairer for the Land if Wool had featured more prominently--especially during Lord Foulard's preternatural winter. He was very nefarious as well in turning one of the Giants into Satinsfist.

Just some harmless fun with your typo. See, there's a fair difference between Linen and Linden.

[peter]

Do you know I didn't spot the typo's even then Frostheart! My eyes have gone to serious levels of badness in the last year or two. Forgive me my stupidity and put it down to the ramblings of an old man!

[Frostheart Grueburn]

No worries!

Now, back to the actual conversation.... I think the preferences eventually land on the platform of personal likings here. While I fancy action, somehow I'm not particularly fond of huuuge throw-in-everything-plus-the-kitchen-sink epic Tolkienish battles where a ten thousand different figures wave their weapons about. There might've been a little too much of this in the 1st chrons, plus some of the second series' powerful, intimate character arcs touched me deeply on a personal level, much more so than Foamfollower and Covenant's quandaries. So I could argue that the follow-ups attract enthusiasts of character-driven plotlines more than the 1st trilogy (An old fan of Dostoyevski here!).

A portion of the aforementioned mirrors my current struggles to get onwards with the Malazan bricks, albeit I'm not going to give up, even if my reading appears quite sluggish.

Loss and sorrow stand as very prominent themes also in the general Finnish literature from myths to contemporary pieces, not to mention music, so one might have to take that into account as well. Agreeing with Deer about the hopes of a happy conclusion, though: SRD managed it with Mordant's Need, so why not again?

[peter]

Gosh I tried so hard with Mordants Need. I read it part way through three times and on the third atempt got well into the second book before giving up - and now you tell me he pulled it out of the bag Frostheart! Nooo......I can't.......I can't.....not again pleeeas!