Orson Scott Card - Ender's Game and other great stories...

Post by **MsMary** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 6:27 am

Yes, Shadow of the Hegemon would be the next book book to tackle, after Ender's Shadow.

~MsMary~

Post by **The Leper Fairy** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:17 am

Oooh very cool.
Must...get...

Post by **dANdeLION** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:16 am

I'm glad you guys liked COTM. I personally had a hard time with Card's solution to all of Ender's problems. Go outside the universe and make a wish? It just seemed too hokey. But other than that, it was pretty good. I really liked the charecters. Anyway, I haven't read the Bean stories yet, and will most likely read the next Alvin Maker story first.

Post by **The Leper Fairy** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 5:56 pm

I just got Shadow of the Hegemon and Shadow puppets... I can't wait to read them... but there's too many books in my list ahead of them... so it may be awhile.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 4:12 am

The Leper Fairy wrote:I just got Shadow of the Hegemon and Shadow puppets... I can't wait to read them... but there's too many books in my list ahead of them... so it may be awhile.

Hey, don't forget this if you really want to be up on the minutiae of Ender

TOR, the publisher of the Ender and Shadow books, has picked up the reprint rights for First Meetings. The paperback edition will come out sometime in 2003, and it will include all the material in the hardcover: "The Polish Boy," "Ender's Game" (the original novelet), and "Investment Counselor."

In addition, OSC has just written a story called "Teacher's Pest," about the first meeting between Ender's parents. John Paul Wieczorek/Wiggin takes a college class in "Human Community" taught by a graduate student who turns out to be from a family famously opposed to the population laws.

"investment Counselor" is Ender's first meeting with Jane, BTW.

Post by **dANdeLION** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 4:17 am

Oops, that last one was from me. Didn't know I could do that :-$

Post by **MsMary** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 3:55 am

dAN wrote:I'm glad you guys liked COTM. I personally had a hard time with Card's solution to all of Ender's problems. Go outside the universe and make a wish? It just seemed too hokey. But other than that, it was pretty good. I really liked the charecters. Anyway, I haven't read the Bean stories yet, and will most likely read the next Alvin Maker story first.

Actually, I was reading at Hatrack, OSC's website, that some of that stuff in COTM stems from Mormon beliefs:

From a thread at the Hatrack River forum:

(posted by a forum member) Philotes, and the theories about them, also the theories and conclusions about the universe that the characters come to, all appear to me to stem from what Mormons believe about the nature of the universe. Perhaps someone who's actually Mormon can explain this better?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The answer (from another forum member, who just happens to be OSC's son ) A large part of this comes from common Mormon folk ideas, rather than from solid scriptural doctrine. But the idea that the universe was created by an intelligent being who imposed order on pre-existing chaotic matter is straight out of Mormon theology.

Mormons reject the idea of creation "ex niliho", and our unique scriptures actually assert that matter cannot be created or destroyed We believe that God made the universe from stuff that already existed in some primordial state, and that we ourselves have also existed, in some form or another, for eternity. We were never created. Instead, God found us and gave us life.

This is how Mormons solve the problem of evil. God didn't make anyone good or bad. A person's moral character has been a part of them forever. God merely gave us the chance to act out our predilections ... either proving ourselves or damning ourselves by our actions.

Though it is never stated in scripture and isn't the most common of beliefs, there is also a folk idea among Mormons that all things possess some small degree of moral intelligence, which explains, to some degree, the occurrence of miracles. Most of the time, these "lower" forms of intelligence obey the laws of physics by instinct, but if persuaded by God, or by a faithful believer, they can choose to behave in unusual ways.

So when Ender discovers that there is an "Outside" universe, where semi-sentient philotes are gathered, awaiting some willful being to give them life and purpose, a Mormon reader will chuckle and feel like part of an inside joke.

I didn't know any of that stuff, not being Mormon myself. Thought it was kind of interesting.

~MsMary~

Post by **dANdeLION** » Mon Nov 03, 2003 2:28 pm

MsMaryMalone wrote:Actually, I was reading at Hatrack, OSC's website, that some of that stuff in COTM stems from Mormon beliefs:

Ahh, I did not know that. Thanks, Ms Mary!

MsMaryMalone wrote:the idea that the universe was created by an intelligent being who imposed order on pre-existing chaotic matter is straight out of Mormon theology....We were never created. Instead, God found us and gave us life....all things possess some small degree of moral intelligence, which explains, to some degree, the occurrence of miracles. So when Ender discovers that there is an "Outside" universe, where semi-sentient philotes are gathered, awaiting some willful being to give them life and purpose, a Mormon reader will chuckle and feel like part of an inside joke.

I didn't know any of that stuff, being Jewish myself. Thought it was kind of interesting.

I'm a christian myself, and as such, this Mormon belief still doesn't make complete sense to me. Even if we weren't created, where did this God come from? Was He created from the philotes? And where did He go to when he was done "altering" us? OSC implies that God has left the building, and now we can go to "heaven" and play God for a while, seeing as there's no sentient being in evidence left there to oppose our will. In this I believe Donaldson to be a more mature writer. Everything that happens in the Land has repercussions; there are no "quick-fix" solutions to be found. As a result, there is a lot of counseling going on and wisdom bandied about before action is taken. I know Ender acted out of desperation, and there were some bad results from it, but it seems that once he stepped into God's realm, there should have been somebody there to greet him, and perhaps enlighten him. "I became my brother and married an oriental girl genius, and my step-son married my computer who inhabits the cloned body of my sister, and we all lived happily ever after" just seems too hokey an ending to me, especially given the promise this series started out with.

Also, OSC implies that you have to be outside the universe to create, and then you can ring the created thing back into the universe. Does that mean he thinks that man, earth and everything else had to go through this process? That must have been one hell of a Fed Ex bill...

Post by **MsMary** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 9:20 pm

Just dropping in to let everyone know that The Crystal City, the next book in OSC's Alvin Maker series, comes out today!!!

~MsMary~

Post by **FaTeke** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 8:55 pm

Anyone here read OSC's Songmaster?

Very unique scifi book that explores sexuality and sacrafice.

I enjoyed it a lot and rank it right up there with the EG series. The original series, I still haven't read any of the new ones.

Take care,
Matthew

Post by **MsMary** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 3:16 am

I have read Songmaster. It is not one of my favorite of OSC's books. Interesting story and premise, but I found the violence in the story disturbing, to tell the truth.

~MsMary~

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 12:55 pm

MsMaryMalone wrote:I have read Songmaster. It is not one of my favorite of OSC's books. Interesting story and premise, but I found the violence in the story disturbing, to tell the truth.

~MsMary~

Honestly, I did too, but not to the point that I couldn't finish the book. There are two main reasons I like this book:

1. Its totally unique. I've never read another book that deals with the same or even similar things. For me that's a rare thing indeed.

2. The fact that it deals with homosexual issues. As a gay man I can tell you there are precious few books out there with characters I can identify with. Its a shame really, for me anyway. Although from the recent polls I'm reading the majority of America is glad.

Plus its OSC and just about anything he writes is worth a read.

Take care,
Matthew

Post by **Roland of Gilead** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 3:34 pm

Matthew, I just recently finished Legends II - Diana Gabaldon's Lord Grey story is not only very well-written, but deals with a gay protagonist in a positive light. You might like it. I understand that she's begun a series of novels featuring this character.

Post by **FaTeke** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 8:07 pm

Roland of Gilead wrote:Matthew, I just recently finished Legends II - Diana Gabaldon's Lord Grey story is not only very well-written, but deals with a gay protagonist in a positive light. You might like it. I understand that she's begun a series of novels featuring this character.

Awesome! Thanks for letting me know. I have the first Legends collection and really enjoyed it. I'll have to get the second one now.

Take care,
Matthew

Post by **kastenessen** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 1:00 am

FaTeke, I agree with you. Songmaster is one of OSC's best and most beautiful books. It's so gripping and sometimes a very painful read. And as a musiclover(well who isn't?) I found that theme, about musical exploration and the connection between ability and emotion very unique. I always recommend this one and EG to people who are interested in OSC...

kasten

Post by **Dragonlily** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 3:17 am

SONGMASTER was my introduction to OSC. After that, I read everything of his I could find at the time -- which was limited compared to now. That's where I developed my admiration for his short story writing. "Ender's Game" was one of those short stories.

It's hard to believe, but I didn't want to read "Ender's Game" in the novel version. I thought expanding it must ruin it. When I finally did, it was a revelation to see that award-deserving short story expanded into an even more award-deserving novel.

Referring back to the mentions of CHILDREN OF THE MIND higher on this page (I haven't looked farther back) I was very disappointed with COTM. To me, the series lost its humanity as quickly as an untied balloon. I couldn't believe a bit of COTM, nor did I want to.

When I've finished my own web work this evening, I'll come back and read the rest of this thread.

Sailing out,

Post by **dANdeLION** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 2:58 pm

Ender was the best book by far in the series. Speaker was cool, but the de-evolution had started, and by COTM, it had totally lost what made Ender special. I was so disappointed that I have yet to read the Hegemon books.

Post by **Dragonlily** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 3:15 pm

The Hegemon books pick back up, dAN. He had years of down time, for them to refresh themselves and take a new position in his brain.

Disclaimer. I'm actually only qualified to speak of ENDER'S SHADOW and SHADOW OF THE HEGEMON, haven't read PUPPETS yet.

Post by **dANdeLION** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:08 pm

Understood. Did you like the Alvin Maker stuff?

Post by **MsMary** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 4:12 am

I don't really like the Shadow series as well as the early Ender books. I don't think they have as much depth - they seem to be written more to appeal to a more general crowd than the earlier books.

~MsMary~

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Kevin's Watch

Orson Scott Card - Ender's Game and other great stories...