The Clash of Science and Unreason.

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The Clash of Science and Unreason.

Post by ussusimiel »

Vraith suggested in Can anyone explain to me what is meant by 'Post-Modernism' that I might start a thread that related to the impact of science on other less rational ways of knowing.

So, as a starting point, how about people revealing the unreasonable in their lives that significantly influences them on a daily/weekly/yearly basis, e.g. beliefs, therapies, superstitions etc. And maybe attempting to convey how they hold that in relation to the more scientific and reasonable aspects of themselves.

In my own case I have a whole slew of unreasonable sources in my quiver :lol: At the moment I draw upon the following:
  • - kineseology
    - osteopathy
    - acupuncture
    - lone-twin work
    - dreamwork
I hold/use these (and others) with a greater or lesser intensity and would always make sure to consult a medical doctor in relation to things like chest infections, sore throats, burns etc.

I have always held a skeptical attitude towards anything that I have tried, and based my conclusions on changes and improvements that were clearly discernable to me. My experience has been that stuff happens in spite of my skepticism and at that point I am willing to accept that what happens is caused by the practitioner/activity even though there is no rational/reasonable/scientific explanation for it (nor can it be explained away by the placebo effect).

One of the consequences of this, for me, has been a opening up of awareness to other possibilities and connections that rationality doesn't consider. I value this opening up highly because it enriches the possibilities of what it means to be human and it contains the potential for a greater closeness and intimacy between people.

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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

I typically apply Godel's Incompleteness Theorem to the universe. My claim is that the laws of physicas describe an axiomatic system--the universe--and thus, according to Godel's Theorem, there will be statements in/about the universe that are true but are not provable using the axioms. In short, there are things that are true about the universe that cannot be proven via science.

It has been stated to me before that this application of GIT is not a correct application but those people also have had no alternate explanation to offer as a rebuttal to mine. At least I have a way to explain things that otherwise defy explanation.

This view of mine, even if it is not accurate, makes sense to me and allows for a more vibrant universe than the typical Deist view of the universe--the giant clock that God (or whomever) started then sat back to watch it go. The reason I think my view is accurate is because it allows scientists to still have a sense of wonder and accounts for "well, we certainly didn't expect *that* result" moments. It also reminds me of Shalmaneser, the quasi-sentient computer from Stand on Zanzibar, when the psychologist/programmer tells it "we do not know why this situation is true but we do know that it is true and as soon as we figure it out we will give you the details", which allows the computer to solve a problem it was previously unable to solve.
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Post by ussusimiel »

I hadn't heard of Godel's Incompleteness Theorems before. An interesting idea, that a consistent theory cannot prove its own consistency (that's if I understand what I read correctly). That a different order or level is necessary. (It reminds me of the Einstein quote about it not being possible to solve problems using the same level of thinking that caused them.)

I have no problem with a science that proceeds in that manner. There are things that I know are true that I also know cannot be proven by science, all I ask is that that be accepted as possible. Unfortunately, there are lots of Sciencists, a-la-Dawkins, out there who find that objectionable.

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Post by Vraith »

U...seriously? That shocks me. Considering the variety of things you DO know about that it relates to in one way or another, it's weird you never encountered it.
I guess that means you don't know the book Godel, Escher, Bach. I highly recommend it...and not only me. I can say with certainty that people I disagree with here regularly...even constantly...would also recommend it. [also Penrose] It's big, thick, complicated, and truly fascinating.

Hashi...well, those folk are possibly right that you are misusing it...which doesn't mean you are "wrong" in an absolute sense.
IF the universe is, in some way, a single "axiomatic" system, you are unavoidably correct.
If the universe is NOT an axiomatic system...they can't criticize you on any logical basis...they have to adopt Wittgenstein's advice and remain silent.
I think the universe is multiply axiomatic.

Back to u...I'll have more to say on your OP when I'm in the mood to go deeper.
I don't dismiss anything you suggest in its entirety, which I can prove by informing you [and everyone else who reads this, which might surprise folk] that I am certified in Reiki [though not the teaching level] and have broken a 3" cinder block with a slap.
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Post by Obi-Wan Nihilo »

I prefer the subtle corollary to the proof, which is that an axiomatic system cannot be both comprehensive and self-consistent. Yet we know the universe to be phenomenalistically paradoxical anyway. Perhaps, like the pronouncements of the Oracle at Delphi, the proof doesn't necessarily mean exactly what we think it means.
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Post by ussusimiel »

Vraith wrote:U...seriously? That shocks me. Considering the variety of things you DO know about that it relates to in one way or another, it's weird you never encountered it.
I guess that means you don't know the book Godel, Escher, Bach. I highly recommend it...and not only me. I can say with certainty that people I disagree with here regularly...even constantly...would also recommend it. [also Penrose] It's big, thick, complicated, and truly fascinating.
I'm afraid so. I'm a bit of a maths dunce, it's simply a language I have no aptitude for. Consequently, I'm inclined to avoid (not dismiss) stuff in that area. However, I have found Godel, Escher, Bach as a free ebook so I'll dip into it and see how it suits.

Is it Penrose's The Emperor's New Mind that you are referring to? Again I'll keep an eye out for it. (This thread is already generating interesting stuff :biggrin: )
Vraith wrote:I don't dismiss anything you suggest in its entirety, which I can prove by informing you [and everyone else who reads this, which might surprise folk] that I am certified in Reiki [though not the teaching level] and have broken a 3" cinder block with a slap.
Well, I shouldn't be surprised, being cognisant of your 'Renaissance Man' approach to life, but I am all the same. Pleasantly 8O

I have never trained in any of the alternative therapies, but I would guess that to engage with one of them is likely to lead to that 'opening up' I speak about in the OP. I'm interested to know what your experience has been like.

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Post by Fist and Faith »

I'm pretty surprised, too, uss. Go read that book! :D It's done without math, really. More thought and logic.
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Post by Vraith »

yea, emporers and its "sequel" shadows of the mind. Good stuff even though there are many valid criticisms of his ideas, too.
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Post by Orlion »

I think one needs to look at this differently: science does not have a monopoly on the claims of rationalization. In fact, I doubt anyone believes anything without thinking it is the rational thing to do. At its most basic, there's the syllogistic justification, for example:
I prayed to get better from the flu.
I got better from the flu.
Ergo, prayer has the power to cure the flu.

One can argue the validity of that, but it is still a rational statement. The main difference is that scientific method would call for something much more than mere reason. For example:

X number of subjects were pooled together with the flu. Y number of subjects without the flu were also pooled together. Both prayed for relief. Z number of subjects with the flu were set aside without praying for relief. The recovery rate in comparison to the control group was A % plus or minus STD at 95 % confidence level which shows B.

At which point it is redone, criticized, reworked, etc.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Penrose's Shadows of the Mind is a more recent exposition of his ideas, after having a few more years to think about the subject and utilize the latest science to back up his conjecture. Specifically, how Godel's Theorem applies to the question of whether consciousness is axiomatic or algorithmic (in other words, whether we could build AI with current science).

Hashi, since humans can understand Godel's theorem, I wouldn't say that the universe is beyond understanding necessarily (at least not by that proof), just that our tools for modeling it are insufficient or incomplete. His proof was about formal systems (logic, math, etc.), not empirical science. While science uses math, it already "violates" logic by pretty much ignoring the problem of induction and the inability to justify belief in causation.

It certainly does not justify belief in supernatural or irrational entities or processes. It seems like you're applying a "god of the gaps" kind of logic, which is fallacious, an argument from ignorance.

While there are certainly things about the universe which are true and which our current science can't explain, this doesn't mean that science will never explain it or that it's essentially unscientific. Not even Godel's proof eliminates the possibility of a higher level formal system. While this may seem to imply an infinite regress of higher order systems of science to explain the next level of uncertainty, that is not at all the same as saying the universe will forever hold truths that are unscientific.

U, I'd add chiropractory to your list.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Orlion wrote:I think one needs to look at this differently: science does not have a monopoly on the claims of rationalization. In fact, I doubt anyone believes anything without thinking it is the rational thing to do. At its most basic, there's the syllogistic justification, for example:
I prayed to get better from the flu.
I got better from the flu.
Ergo, prayer has the power to cure the flu.

One can argue the validity of that, but it is still a rational statement. The main difference is that scientific method would call for something much more than mere reason. For example:
...
No, it's not strictly rational. In order to say that it's rational, the conclusion would have to be necessary from the premises, not merely tacked on in a way that satisfies wishful thinking. It would have to be contained in the premises, and in such a way that no other alternative is possible. "Prayer has the power to cure" is a conclusion that is not contained in the premises, but instead added to them with the baggage of additional empirical concepts like "power" and "cure," neither of which are contained or derivable from the premises. The reason one can contest the validity of that argument, as you say, is because it's not a logical or rational statement.

It has the same exact form as this argument:

I took a bus to work.
I got better from the flu.
Bus rides have the power to cure the flu.

There is nothing at all in the premises that make the conclusion logically necessary. Without logical necessity, it's irrational. It's illogical.

Logical necessity: "that state of things that obliges something to be as it is because no alternative is logically possible."
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Post by Orlion »

Thanks for the clarification!
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Govern the reasoning creature, man.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

ussusimiel wrote:Unfortunately, there are lots of Sciencists, a-la-Dawkins, out there who find that objectionable.
Scientists like Dawkins are too eager to rule out anything that doesn't fit with their world-view. In my opinion, he is too closed-minded to be a truly objective scientist.
Vraith wrote:I guess that means you don't know the book Godel, Escher, Bach. I highly recommend it...and not only me. I can say with certainty that people I disagree with here regularly...even constantly...would also recommend it.

Hashi...well, those folk are possibly right that you are misusing it...which doesn't mean you are "wrong" in an absolute sense.
IF the universe is, in some way, a single "axiomatic" system, you are unavoidably correct.
If the universe is NOT an axiomatic system...they can't criticize you on any logical basis...they have to adopt Wittgenstein's advice and remain silent.
I think the universe is multiply axiomatic.
I wholeheartedly concur--everyone should read GEB, no matter how long it takes you to finish it.

I can see the "multiply axiomatic", especially if we presume the universe existing as the intersection of membranes and each membrane's set of axioms are coexisting. I freely admit that I am probably misapplying Godel, but it helps to create a starting point from which to explain the universe without resorting to supernatural explanations. Even to me, supernatural explanations are often...unfulfilling.

Zarathustra wrote:Hashi, since humans can understand Godel's theorem, I wouldn't say that the universe is beyond understanding necessarily (at least not by that proof), just that our tools for modeling it are insufficient or incomplete. His proof was about formal systems (logic, math, etc.), not empirical science. While science uses math, it already "violates" logic by pretty much ignoring the problem of induction and the inability to justify belief in causation.

It certainly does not justify belief in supernatural or irrational entities or processes. It seems like you're applying a "god of the gaps" kind of logic, which is fallacious, an argument from ignorance.
That is why I noted with my example from Stand on Zanzibar, we simply do not possess the tools at this time to completely understand the universe. I suspect that this will not always be the case, so at some point our understanding will improve and be refined.

No, I do not default to "anything I don't understand is God"; rather, things in the gaps are simply things we do not understand at this time but that will not always be the case. The only "justification" I offer for people believing in the supernatural is that it does no harm. No one is hurt simply because they choose to believe in God, or faeries, or nature spirits, or dragons, or zombies, or whatever. This may limit their ability to understand or investigate something, yes, but even that does no harm in and of itself.

My own belief is that someday everything will be understood and that we will be able to model physical reality as it exists via mathematical equations. I do not know how long that process will take.

The main difference between people who believe in supernatural things and people who do not is this: the people who believe in supernatural things are not upset, even in the slightest, by gaps in our knowledge. As Z notes, they usually rely on "god in the gaps" thinking which, although technically a fallacy, does no harm. People who want to understand everything see those gaps in knowledge and get frustrated, albeit only slightly, that we don't understand those things yet.
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Post by Vraith »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote: That is why I noted with my example from Stand on Zanzibar, we simply do not possess the tools at this time to completely understand the universe. I suspect that this will not always be the case, so at some point our understanding will improve and be refined.

No, I do not default to "anything I don't understand is God"; rather, things in the gaps are simply things we do not understand at this time but that will not always be the case.
See...I tend to think pretty strongly that there will always be things we don't know, can't show mathematically/scientifically/rationally. [or at minimum, real things ["real" here including conceptually/abstractly] that can only be described/modeled using different, mutually exclusive systems.] It's possible we'll find some unifying meta-system. It's also [and I think more likely] that no such system exists, or there is an infinite regress as Z suggests.
BUT I definitely do not think that that makes those things "supernatural."
Indescribable, irrational, inexplicable, ineffable, mystical are not synonyms for, and do not necessarily lead to, nor imply, supernatural or metaphysical.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Vraith wrote:
Indescribable, irrational, inexplicable, ineffable, mystical are not synonyms for, and do not necessarily lead to, nor imply, supernatural or metaphysical.
What he said.
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Post by Zarathustra »

There is great harm in believing in the supernatural. The inability to distinguish pseudo-science from science leads to:

* Trying to teach creationism in science class
* Wasting money on things like chiropractors
* Distrusting doctors/scientists
* Distrusting reason
* Cease questioning reality
* Cease questioning authority (especially religious authority)
* Submission to questionable morality (e.g. stoning gays, mutilating girls)
* Subjugation of other humans based on mythical mandates
* Dogmatic entrenchment that comes from no longer questioning, making everything on this list easier to perpetuate and harder to stop or overcome.

Belief in the supernatural is a fundamental inauthenticity, a way to escape reality. Any time we diverge from reality, we weaken the natural constraints that allow responsibility to be derivable from individual choices by diluting what's important about this world with a fable. Dogma begins to supersede liberty and rights. Crimes against humanity become justifiable as "religious freedom." Genocide is justified by blaming god.

Supernatural is life-denying, world-denying. It is the original sin (i.e. it predates inventing that concept).
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Post by Orlion »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:

The main difference between people who believe in supernatural things and people who do not is this: the people who believe in supernatural things are not upset, even in the slightest, by gaps in our knowledge. As Z notes, they usually rely on "god in the gaps" thinking which, although technically a fallacy, does no harm. People who want to understand everything see those gaps in knowledge and get frustrated, albeit only slightly, that we don't understand those things yet. [/color]
You're assuming we care too much about gaps in knowledge ;)

There are several gaps in knowledge and I imagine there always will be, but they do not, in of themselves, necessarily lead to one doubting a worldview. Often times, to focus on them would be absolutely ridiculous (i.e. we don't have a succession of fossils that shows every...damn... variation...from a light sensing organ evolving into an eye. The gap does little (i.e. nothing) to disprove evolution. All it does is leave room open for a better understanding of the evolution of the eye, if one is to be found).

It is also my experience that those who believe in the supernatural are the ones that tend to want to understand everything. That is why they believe in the supernatural, because it fills in the various gaps of their understanding or replaces unsavory reality.

And then there's the whole using the misunderstandings of science to further one's political agenda... those people (Republicans and Democrats) are a bunch of bastards.
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Post by Obi-Wan Nihilo »

What do you have against chiropractors? I don't know or care about the science, but sometimes there is no other avenue of relief.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Zarathustra wrote:Belief in the supernatural is a fundamental inauthenticity, a way to escape reality. Any time we diverge from reality, we weaken the natural constraints that allow responsibility to be derivable from individual choices by diluting what's important about this world with a fable. Dogma begins to supersede liberty and rights. Crimes against humanity become justifiable as "religious freedom." Genocide is justified by blaming god.

Supernatural is life-denying, world-denying. It is the original sin (i.e. it predates inventing that concept).
I will point out, of course, that your Unbelief in the supernatural is as dogmatic as another person's belief in the supernatural.

Anyone who allows their religious beliefs to suspend their mind from working deserves whatever outcome they claim they want, up to and including committing suicide because their religious leader advises them to do so or committing murder because the victim worshipped the "wrong" deity. That being said, I advise only that you might now want to lump all people with any religious beliefs into the same category.

Orlion wrote:You're assuming we care too much about gaps in knowledge

There are several gaps in knowledge and I imagine there always will be, but they do not, in of themselves, necessarily lead to one doubting a worldview. Often times, to focus on them would be absolutely ridiculous (i.e. we don't have a succession of fossils that shows every...damn... variation...from a light sensing organ evolving into an eye. The gap does little (i.e. nothing) to disprove evolution. All it does is leave room open for a better understanding of the evolution of the eye, if one is to be found).

It is also my experience that those who believe in the supernatural are the ones that tend to want to understand everything. That is why they believe in the supernatural, because it fills in the various gaps of their understanding or replaces unsavory reality.

And then there's the whole using the misunderstandings of science to further one's political agenda... those people (Republicans and Democrats) are a bunch of bastards.
That is why I used the qualifiers "albeit only slightly" to note that the generalities I was using were neither set in stone nor absolute.

You mention the evolution of the eyeball and now I recall that I made a thread on that once, asking about how it was possible. I think the consensus was that evolution is like graphing the function y = x^2 if x is irrational and y = 0 if x is rational--this function is continuous (at least, it meets the definition of 'continuity' for functions) but not differentiable. In short, there are gaps everywhere if you look at the small scale but the overall graph still looks like a continuous function. At least, that is my understanding on the topic.

Don't get me started on people using misunderstanding of science to advance a political agenda. That always makes me mad when politicians try to do that. You are correct--those people are bastards...and some of those bastards are also religious leaders.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Don Exnihilote wrote:What do you have against chiropractors? I don't know or care about the science, but sometimes there is no other avenue of relief.
You may not know/care about the science, but that is the theme of this thread, which is why I've mentioned it. But there's a larger social/economic component. Read on.

Chiropractic: A Skeptical View
Chiropractic is the most significant nonscientific health-care delivery system in the United States. As a result of their high level of organization and aggressiveness, chiropractors are licensed to practice in all 50 states and several foreign countries. Although a minority of chiropractors offer rational treatment, chiropractic's cultism is so well entrenched that the profession should be viewed as a societal problem, not simply as a competitor of regular health-care.

Spinal manipulation can be useful, but chiropractic's theoretical basis rests largely on a strange and never-demonstrated notion of "subluxations."

Chiropractic Vertebral Subluxations: Science vs. Pseudoscience
An orthopedic subluxation, a true vertebral misalignment, or a mechanical joint dysfunction that affects mobility in the spine is not the same as a “chiropractic subluxation” that is alleged to cause disease by interfering with nerve supply to organs. Such a subluxation has never been proven to exist. There is no plausible theory and no credible evidence to support the contention that “nerve interference” originating in a single spinal segment can cause an organic disease.

Unable to provide evidence that commonly occurring vertebral misalignment can cause organic disease, advocates of the subluxation theory have reasoned that there must be some other type of joint dysfunction that can affect general health. They have chosen, by consensus, to call this undetectable lesion a “vertebral subluxation complex,” which “embraces the holistic nature of the human body, including health, well-being, and the doctor/patient relationship as well as the changes in nerve, muscle, connective, and vascular tissues which are understood to accompany the kinesiologic aberrations of spinal articulations.”1

Some chiropractors claim to be able to locate these elusive subluxations by using surface electromyography, thermography, vibratory instruments, leg length checks, or by palpating the spine.

A largely ignored landmark review of the literature by a Ph.D. and a chiropractor (Nansel and Szlazak), published in 1995, concluded that there is not a single appropriately controlled study to indicate that any dysfunction in structures of the spinal column is a cause of organic disease.2 The review noted that pain and other symptoms referred from a spinal segment can “create overt signs and symptoms that can mimic, or simulate (rather than cause), internal organ disease,” lending no support to the vertebral subluxation theory. Spinal nerves are commonly irritated or compressed, causing pain and other symptoms in the musculoskeletal structures supplied by the affected nerve. But even the most severe compression of a spinal nerve does not cause organic disease.

A review of the current evidence on the epidemiology of the subluxation construct (Mirtz, et al, 2009) also failed to find any credible evidence supporting the chiropractic vertebral subluxation theory. This paper, authored by three chiropractors and a Ph.D., concluded that “No supportive evidence is found for the chiropractic subluxation being associated with any disease process or of creating suboptimal health conditions requiring intervention. Regardless of popular appeal this leaves the subluxation construct in the realm of unsupported speculation. This lack of supportive evidence suggests the subluxation construct has no valid clinical applicability.”3

While there is justification for use of the word “subluxation” when referring to a mechanical-type spinal problem, there appears to be no justification whatsoever for suggesting that a “chiropractic subluxation” can affect general health.
As some of you know, my wife writes the coverage guidelines for one of the largest health insurance companies in the country. These guidelines are based on science and efficacy, as determined by the medical community's standard practice of care and professional peer-reviewed journals which conduct actual science (e.g. double-blind, randomized controlled trials). According to her expert opinion having researched medical technology for over a decade, there is no credible science that supports chiropractic as legitimate, efficacious health care. The only reason your health insurance pays for it is due to lobbying efforts by the industry, thus carving out a huge hole in our rational, scientific, evidence-based health care system for pseudo-science, by-passing our professional standards for medicine. And driving up costs for everyone in order to fund a vast medical fraud.
Success will be my revenge -- DJT
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