The Way and the Door To The Seventh Ward

[Holsety]

That is Amok's "epithet."

I've long wondered if it was an allusion to this passage (or if this passage alluded to some earlier, shared origin).

Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth. He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again. He knows where They have trod earth's fields, and where They still tread them, and why no one can behold Them as They tread.

Obviously Kevin is not a Lovecraftian elder horror, nor is Amok, but there is still some resonance between this passage, and the results stemming from the existence of Amok and the 7th ward, IMO. It did result in the first shattering in the series of a fundamental law of the land.

I have never actually read a "Cthulu-Mythos" story, but I did stumble upon this passage.

[wayfriend]

Aren't these just two examples of an obvious common metaphor?

Jesus said he was a way and a door, too.

[iQuestor]

so did Hoerkin (sp?)

[Holsety]

Aren't these just two examples of an obvious common metaphor?

Jesus said he was a way and a door, too.

Oh ya, the jesus thing. That WAS brought up here. Sorry, the metaphor as worded rarely resonates with me out of the context of the chronicles, because I am not christian and never read a full gospel.

And yes, Iquestor, you spelled Hoerkin right XD

[Krazy Kat]

I've often wondered if Amok really led Covenant and Elena to the Seventh Ward. He knew he had been summoned prematurely and sought knowledge, maybe even advice, on what to do. Then he returned with a 'plan B', so to speak.

Amok told the assembly at the viancomb [sp?] in Revelwood that the Seventh Ward of High Lord Kevin was the pinnacle of his lore. But this he said with a smile, as if telling a secret joke.
I seem to remember Hile Troy thought that he stood on the pinnacle of the Earth when he had climbed Kevin's Watch.

Maybe the 'Way and the Door' was only 'Damelon's Door'. Amok said that only he could pass through safely; anyone else trying to use the door without Amok's guidance would find themself lost in the depths of the mountain for ever.

If the Blood of the Earth was an option Amok used in conjunction with Kevin's wisdom, then I wonder that the shimmering wall above the bath of earthblood just might have been an exit for Covenant - a portal, ie, The Door, where Susie Thurston performed.

The Seventh Ward of High Lord Kevin could still be undiscovered (albiet, hidden within the texts of the first chronicles), just like the 4th 5th and 6th.
Kevin was no fool. The True Way and the Door to the Seventh Ward may still lie in the 6th Ward.

[Holsety]

I've often wondered if Amok really led Covenant and Elena to the Seventh Ward. He knew he had been summoned prematurely and sought knowledge, maybe even advice, on what to do. Then he returned with a 'plan B', so to speak.

Amok told the assembly at the viancomb [sp?] in Revelwood that the Seventh Ward of High Lord Kevin was the pinnacle of his lore. But this he said with a smile, as if telling a secret joke.
I seem to remember Hile Troy thought that he stood on the pinnacle of the Earth when he had climbed Kevin's Watch.

Maybe the 'Way and the Door' was only 'Damelon's Door'. Amok said that only he could pass through safely; anyone else trying to use the door without Amok's guidance would find themself lost in the depths of the mountain for ever.

If the Blood of the Earth was an option Amok used in conjunction with Kevin's wisdom, then I wonder that the shimmering wall above the bath of earthblood just might have been an exit for Covenant - a portal, ie, The Door, where Susie Thurston performed.

The Seventh Ward of High Lord Kevin could still be undiscovered (albiet, hidden within the texts of the first chronicles), just like the 4th 5th and 6th.
Kevin was no fool. The True Way and the Door to the Seventh Ward may still lie in the 6th Ward.

Hahaha.

I made a beautiful post about Mhoram, but I deleted most of it.

I don't think the true way and the door to the seventh ward lies in the 6th ward. Amok was a way, and the wards are a way to Amok. But the 7th ward is not something which has a true way to it, because it is not Kevin's knowledge, but a concrete form that Kevin tried to instill with his knowledge in a way that the lords would draw knowledge from it.

The critical component of the 7th ward is the revelation of the existence, form, and power of the earthblood, and the power of command, AND THAT KEVIN DID NOT USE IT.

From this, I understand that its existence is not an expression of whether or not Kevin was a fool, but that he trusted in the future. He knew that the earthblood might do more damage than any person of the land might ever do with good, ever, because he knew the earthblood's potency surpassed his knowledge. He was shocked that Elena had broken the law of death by summoning him; this is proof he did not understand it enough to calculate its presence as a risk. I'm sure Kevin thought about using a landslide to block the way forever - even if it wasn't permanent, it might be a strong safeguard. The earthblood is like a nuke, except that it's harder to use well, and easier to destroy the world with. I mean, hell, volcanoes on earth are powerful, and the earthblood might as well be magical edible lava. Yea, normally lava would just kill you, but this stuff is magic and edible.

So as far as that goes, I think the earthblood really is the "aim" of the 7th ward. Kevin is trying to tell his successors that earthblood is potent, but that it might be worth the risk, even though he did not dare to use it. If he wasn't trying to say that, there would be no Amok, and no 7th ward.

But the 7th ward is not all of the wards. It offers a crucial reinterpretation of all the wards. It PROVES (IMO) that Kevin was not merely writing the wards to restrict the lords, or allow them to come to his stature. He wrote them because he loved them, even though he never met them. He knew that in some way, Berek, Damelon, and Loric reached different heights; he knew from Berek's example that there was hope in earthpower that went even beyond knowledge. He might have felt dwarfed by their good works even before the ritual, or he might have felt confident in standing among them. But, he believed he had wisdom enough to lay a formal groundwork for those who would succeed him. And he loved them. He believed they could surpass him. And he believed they might do the land good.

That's where I think Mhoram comes in. Mhoram had a lot of trust, and a lot of difficulty in trusting; I think that was critical in causing Trell's desecration. But I think he came out of that and brought a salvation that surpassed Berek's, because it was less like a blessing and more like a human triumph (a miracle?), except that it was fiction XD That kind of victory - not just standing against horrible odds, but taking right action in a way that resists despite - is the kind of victory that fulfills Kevin's hopes.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Why didn't Foul try to use the power of earthblood for his purposes before Damelon made the door? Did the Elohim guard the place? There was some mention of them granting wishes to people who reached one of the caverns on the way to the earthblood chamber.

[Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm]

Lord Foul is cautious, using it is very unsubtle - and dangerous, it could be not that it was guarded, but that he decided not to use it. Particularly since it can be questioned how much he could achieve with such a wish in those circumstances. Though the Elohim could guard it as well - but I think he could bypass them if he really wanted.

I have never actually read a "Cthulu-Mythos" story, but I did stumble upon this passage.

That's Cthulhu. And

en.wikisource.org/wiki/Hypnos
en.wikisource.org/wiki/Under_the_Pyramids
en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Music_of_Erich_Zann
en.wikisource.org/wiki/At_the_Mountains_of_Madness
en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Case_of_Charles_Dexter_Ward

Just a few recommendations. It did occur to me that Lovecraft's and Donaldson's style often sounds similar - with a lot of rare and old passages, words, structures.

[Holsety]

Lord Foul is cautious, using it is very unsubtle - and dangerous, it could be not that it was guarded, but that he decided not to use it. Particularly since it can be questioned how much he could achieve with such a wish in those circumstances. Though the Elohim could guard it as well - but I think he could bypass them if he really wanted.

The tough thing in figuring out Kevin for me (and I wouldn't be surprised if the chronicles discuss this at some point) is if he would have used the earthblood if it wasn't so far away when he decided it was time to confront Foul.

I have never actually read a "Cthulu-Mythos" story, but I did stumble upon this passage.

That's Cthulhu. And

en.wikisource.org/wiki/Hypnos
en.wikisource.org/wiki/Under_the_Pyramids
en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Music_of_Erich_Zann
en.wikisource.org/wiki/At_the_Mountains_of_Madness
en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Case_of_Charles_Dexter_Ward

Just a few recommendations. It did occur to me that Lovecraft's and Donaldson's style often sounds similar - with a lot of rare and old passages, words, structures.

Thanks. I probably will look those up, because I've had at least a cursory interest in reading some of those stories, even after reading some of the jokes.

[The Eighth Ward]

Lord Foul is cautious, using it is very unsubtle - and dangerous, it could be not that it was guarded, but that he decided not to use it. Particularly since it can be questioned how much he could achieve with such a wish in those circumstances. Though the Elohim could guard it as well - but I think he could bypass them if he really wanted.

I feel that Foul's caution has little to do with his decision not to use the Power of Command. If the PoC could be used to rive the Arch of Time, he would not hesitate for a second. What are mortal consequences or repercussions to him?

Instead, consider what Amok said:

The first of these hazards - first but perhaps not foremost - is the one great limit of the Power. It holds no sway over anything which is not a natural part of the Earth's creation. Thus it is not possible to Command the Despiser to cease his warring. It is not possible to Command his death.

.
This is, in my view, a two-edged sword. Foul understands that, just as the PoC has no sway over him, it is also unusable by him. It is a power "not apt to his hand", like the Staff of Law. Drinking of the EarthBlood will not grant him the PoC because he is not a natural part of the Earth's creation.

So, why not have one of his Earthbound servants use the POC to rive the Arch? After all, they would not be able to Command him. And look how easily he slapped down Elena's attempt to defeat him.

No, I cannot credit that it can be used directly to throw down the Arch. And, it cannot be used to compel the use of wild magic as a tool to destroy the Arch of Time. Amok confirms this when he tells us that:

White Gold exists beyond the Arch of Time. It cannot be Commanded.

Therefore the PoC does not meet Foul's purpose.

[Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm]

I'm actually pretty sure it can't ruin the Arch - it exactly should fall into its limitation, being from before the Earth itself. If that was possible, LF certainly could ignore the mortal repercussions. But in the absence of that possibility LF could still use the power for other purposes - either to cause the ruin of the Arch not directly - or just to cause give more pain to the world he despises.

That's where the caution part comes into play - certainly he could use the Earthblood for either of those possibilities. He did use most various any not remotely suitable for him power sources - with results far from what those things were meant to do. But this one is particularly so able to cause more problems than it could solve - LF could decide it wasn't worth it.

Holsety, hopefully you'll find these stories good, I can recommend more if you're interested.

So, are there more people here who need to be converted?

[Vraith]

That's where the caution part comes into play - certainly he could use the Earthblood for either of those possibilities. He did use most various any not remotely suitable for him power sources - with results far from what those things were meant to do. But this one is particularly so able to cause more problems than it could solve - LF could decide it wasn't worth it.

I agree as others have been indicating that PoC can't be used directly against the Arch, cuz the Arch has a meta/super-nature.

But you are on to something Eff, on why he didn't previously have a servant use it for any purpose at all: Without wisdom and being a perfect seer/oracle, the effects rebound against the user's intent...so a Foul-servant would likely end up doing Foul's plans and other servants a disservice. [and probably more serious than dropping the tea tray].

[Krazy Kat]

[Kevin]...loved them...

I hadn't thought about this before. Which now seems obvious knowing that he had hidden his Wards by seeing far into the furture - beyond desecration.

That's where I think Mhoram comes in. Mhoram had a lot of trust, and a lot of difficulty in trusting; I think that was critical in causing Trell's desecration. But I think he came out of that and brought a salvation that surpassed Berek's, because it was less like a blessing and more like a human triumph (a miracle?), except that it was fiction XD That kind of victory - not just standing against horrible odds, but taking right action in a way that resists despite - is the kind of victory that fulfills Kevin's hopes.

I've always believed the summoning of Amok had something more to do with just the krill being embedded into the stone table. it shone like a star
If Elena's marrowmeld sculpture of Covenant/Bannor had opened the way for Mhoram to uncover the Ritual of Desecration, then maybe Elena was much more prophetic than we have been led to believe.

So where did Elena get the bone to sculp Myra?

[DukkhaWaynhim]

Amok told the assembly at the viancomb [sp?] in Revelwood that the Seventh Ward of High Lord Kevin was the pinnacle of his lore. But this he said with a smile, as if telling a secret joke.

I believe Amok was being coy here, since the Seventh Ward, Earthblood, was hidden beneath the pinnacle of Melenkurion Skyweir.

I've always believed the summoning of Amok had something more to do with just the krill being embedded into the stone table. it shone like a star

I always assumed that the lore leading to the activation of the krill was contained within the Sixth Ward. So, perhaps Kevin assumed that only after mastering the first six wards, as evidenced by activation of the krill, that Amok was ready to serve his purpose. So, in this as in other things, Kevin was wrong.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Was Kevin suffering from the sin of pride? I can see why he didn't believe he could change Creation for the better to win his war with Foul (and the Demondim) but Amok mentions that he knew about the White Gold. He probably also had some knowledge of the other powerful races of his world. Yet he didn't seek help from anyone. He decided to face Foul by himself and fight him with his pain and rage.

[Vraith]

Was Kevin suffering from the sin of pride? I can see why he didn't believe he could change Creation for the better to win his war with Foul (and the Demondim) but Amok mentions that he knew about the White Gold. He probably also had some knowledge of the other powerful races of his world. Yet he didn't seek help from anyone. He decided to face Foul by himself and fight him with his pain and rage.

yea, pride is the flaw for the act [he KNOWS it will work...of course he's wrong] and alone and secret due to the knowledge that others would oppose him [he may be attempting a long-term good, but the means is evil beyond question.]
I sometimes think that pride is such a mixed blessing because it's really two things. Roughly, to take pride in what you believe/think you can do pointed forward is the "flawed" kind. One should only feel pride pointing backwards...at what you have done well.

And yea, DW, on K's krill plan. Mastery of the 6th allows it. But he didn't foresee TC/White Gold, which transcends his rules and lore.

[Krazy Kat]

I always assumed that the lore leading to the activation of the krill was contained within the Sixth Ward. So, perhaps Kevin assumed that only after mastering the first six wards, as evidenced by activation of the krill, that Amok was ready to serve his purpose. So, in this as in other things, Kevin was wrong.

What if the Second Ward contained with it the One Seed?

I can't recall a detailed description of the Lorestraat in Lord Foul's Bane.
In the Illearth War it says that Revelwood was a mighty oak, born of the One Seed, with six smaller trees branching off from it. (For the accumalation and study of the Seven Wards?).
Elena had mentioned that the study of the Second Ward had opened previously hidden rooms in Revelstone. The Hall of Gifts may have been one of these newly opened rooms. It did contain some marrowmeld work. And as Elena was the only person in the Land that had that talent, then either the works were all done by Elena, or they had been already there undiscovered since before the Ritual of Desecration.

Loric's Krill may also have been hidden in Revelstone - not under Mount Thunder with the Second Ward.

[bikebryan]

I always assumed that the lore leading to the activation of the krill was contained within the Sixth Ward. So, perhaps Kevin assumed that only after mastering the first six wards, as evidenced by activation of the krill, that Amok was ready to serve his purpose. So, in this as in other things, Kevin was wrong.

What if the Second Ward contained with it the One Seed?

I can't recall a detailed description of the Lorestraat in Lord Foul's Bane.
In the Illearth War it says that Revelwood was a mighty oak, born of the One Seed, with six smaller trees branching off from it. (For the accumalation and study of the Seven Wards?).
Elena had mentioned that the study of the Second Ward had opened previously hidden rooms in Revelstone. The Hall of Gifts may have been one of these newly opened rooms. It did contain some marrowmeld work. And as Elena was the only person in the Land that had that talent, then either the works were all done by Elena, or they had been already there undiscovered since before the Ritual of Desecration.

Loric's Krill may also have been hidden in Revelstone - not under Mount Thunder with the Second Ward.

The Krill WAS discovered in Revlestone. This was mentioned in The Illearth War, when Covenant was told the Krill was found when they used the Staff of Law to open doors there they hand been unable to open without it.

[Krazy Kat]

The Krill WAS discovered in Revlestone. This was mentioned in The Illearth War, when Covenant was told the Krill was found when they used the Staff of Law to open doors there they hand been unable to open without it.

Thanks for pointing that out, bikebryan.
I'd also made the mistake of saying Revelwood was a mighty oak. It was in fact an immense banyan tree, the size of a mighty oak. A mistake I'm glad to have made. If you were to think on Troy seeing Amok hidding in Covenant's chest, at the viancome, then there's a kind of poetic logic to it.

Here's one of those things that surely has to have been mentioned in other threads. I only just noticed it yesterday and it might shed some light on the topic of this thread.
It's what happens if you take the names of the three ancient Lords (ignoring Berek for the time being) and joining them together, like this:

DamelonLoricKevin

DamelonLoricKevin - Door
DamelonLoricKevin - Lock
DamelonLoricKevin - Ke ?

As you can see, the pattern is incomplete without the letter y.
The words, krill and Amok, can also be found in the three names.
It still proves nothing, resolves nothing. It's just a triviality, like lifting the lid on a tool box instead of looking at the object the tools created.
Though it still may have some interest.

[Sherman Landlearner]

I agree, definitely, with #8 up there. I don't think Foul could have used the PoC. The "joke" Amok made was, I think, in his greater understanding. The only way he could have said it, without saying what he couldn't say, was that is was the pinnacle of Kevin's lore. But really, as a part of the earth itself, and since Kevin never even looked at it himself, it doesn't really have anything to do with Kevin. Damelon did all the important stuff there. But it's technically "Kevin's" lore, since that's what they call all the lore from before the desecration.