Hile Troy as an African American?

[peter]

I think I probably never got past the no eyes thing to ever really mentally visualise his skin color

[DrPaul]

SRD gives no explicit pointers about Troy's ethnicity one way or the other, so to that extent we can let our imaginations roam free. However I'd add the following point.

Nobody that Covenant encountered in the Land in LFB was described as being of African-American appearance, and neither were any of the human characters in the Land that appear in TIW. If Troy was of African-American appearance, this would have struck Covenant immediately when he first encountered Troy, especially is it would have been further evidence that Troy was from the "real" world and thus would have further undermined his Unbelief. In short, if Troy was of African-American appearance Covenant would have been almost certain to have noticed it and to have thought it was significant, and in all likelihood this would have been related in the story.

[pkfridley]

I never thought Hile was black... but I have ALWAYS pictured the Giants as African, with dark skin and musical African accents. I realized in my recent re-read (after 20 years!) that SRD never mentioned their ethnicity, and that it was only my imagination. The only thing vaguely close is the First's "steely hair," but at the same time, my vision of Foamfollower (preceding the First, obviously) is very vivid. A little bit like Seal when he smiles.

The Haruchai are repeatedly described as having "brown skin," the Mithil Stowndowners are "dark," Linden has "auburn tresses," and obviously Vain is cartoonishly black, but that's as close as I ever noticed SRD getting to discussing race.

[michaelm]

If Troy was of African-American appearance, this would have struck Covenant immediately when he first encountered Troy, especially is it would have been further evidence that Troy was from the "real" world and thus would have further undermined his Unbelief. In short, if Troy was of African-American appearance Covenant would have been almost certain to have noticed it and to have thought it was significant, and in all likelihood this would have been related in the story.

I don't have the book to hand, but that's a really good point. If he was African American, he would have stood out firstly for his skin color rather than wearing sunglasses. I think we can assume that the inhabitants of the land are not African American by their descriptions (hair color comes to mind and I think Lena's skin color is described if I remember correctly).

Seems unlikely that Covenant would have missed the fact that one person among the inhabitants of Revelstone is a different color from the others.

[Vraith]

If Troy was of African-American appearance, this would have struck Covenant immediately when he first encountered Troy, especially is it would have been further evidence that Troy was from the "real" world and thus would have further undermined his Unbelief. In short, if Troy was of African-American appearance Covenant would have been almost certain to have noticed it and to have thought it was significant, and in all likelihood this would have been related in the story.

I don't have the book to hand, but that's a really good point. If he was African American, he would have stood out firstly for his skin color rather than wearing sunglasses. I think we can assume that the inhabitants of the land are not African American by their descriptions (hair color comes to mind and I think Lena's skin color is described if I remember correctly).

Seems unlikely that Covenant would have missed the fact that one person among the inhabitants of Revelstone is a different color from the others.

Both of those make it highly unlikely, certainly. But not impossible. I mean, it's a big world, and TC hadn't met all that many people in it [and those he did were pretty varied beings]. All things considered, he might well notice Ray-Ban's before dark skin. [[not LIKELY, but POSSIBLE]].

BTW, m-m, you're new, it seems. Someone [or bunch of one's. Our version of Walmart Greeters] is probably going to notice you soon and start, among other things, suggesting you go post here: kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3880&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=7160

[wayfriend]

This was posted in the GI thread. It should have been in here somewhere as well.

Tim Koupe: Not sure if you're aware of this or not, but curiously, many of us see Hile Troy as a black man. Reviewing the text, there doesn't appear to be any description that overtly suggests this, yet roughly half of us (at the Watch) just assumed he was a black fella.

There are a few theories floating around, like a subconscious association to Geordi, from Star Trek, for obvious reasons.

Race, as opposed to culture, would seem to have little consequence to the Chronicles, but many of us just find it kind of fascinating how this character appears to our mind's eye, contrary to the rest of the cast. And we all seem to like him better that way.

And this, of course, leads to further discussion about how we associate characters to what we are familiar with. If an author does not imply any racial description in text, then are we predisposed to subconsciously visualize what we are immediately familiar with? (Not to be confused with preference)

Don't misunderstand. Race, on its face, just isn't that important and is about the least interesting thing about a person. However, the thought exercise on how we think and draw conclusions, given minimal information, can be somewhat compelling.

Your thoughts on this subject would be very interesting to me.

Anyway, just thought you might get a kick out of the whole Hile Troy thing, if you didn't already know...or did you pull something sneaky on us?

• I really don't know what to say. In the vaguest possible terms, I have thought of the Haruchai as Asian; and the Ramen look like they might come from India. Occasionally I have imagined the Giants as black (possibly an effect of over-exposure to "Fantasy Bedtime Hour" <grin>). But Hile Troy...? Well, you surprise me.
  
  Naturally the whole subject of how readers' imaginations are triggered is both fascinating and mysterious. I wish I could explain it. (If I understood it myself, I would be a whole lot better writer than I am now.) I know that things like diction, cadence, and imagery can have oblique effects--as can associations in the reader's mind, associations over which the writer has no control. But in the particular case of Hile Troy, I wonder....
  
  Could it be that he seems black because he has no eyes--and so do the ur-viles (who are also--duh--black)? After all, the reader is introduced to the ur-viles rather vividly long before Troy appears in the story.
  
  (02/04/2010)

(Yes, Frostheart. Black Giants!)

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I never thought about this, either. Hile Troy's ethnicity isn't nearly as important as his very existence, though--he comes from our world like Covenant does but he has no connection to Covenant in any way and is something completely random. He wasn't even visited by the Creator; of course, Troy doesn't have any metaphysical power, either, so his choices outside being the Warmark are ultimately irrelevant.

I can't think of any reason why he couldn't or shouldn't be a black man.