The Chrons in Translation.

[peter]

I've just asked Vader 'in another place' if he would give us an insight as to how the experience of reading the chrons in translation might differ from reading them in english. He is, I know re-reading them at present in english which is not his first language (major respect to him) but there must be numbers of 'Watchers' who have read the books in translation (and maybe perhaps in both the english and a translated language.) As I'm currently exploring his subject area (as a mere single language speaker) I would love (and be very gratefull) to hear any observations from people who have tackled these, my most favorite of books, from perspectives that I can never experience.

I'd like this thread if possible to be as open as possible in respect of it's coverage - are there different translations in any given language (eg 3 in french, 2 in rusian etc), how have they been done - well, badly, literally or more generally - basically anything goes. Also could anyone who knows a Watcher who has read a volume or volumes in tanslation - or indeed in english as a second language - dirct them here so maybe they can pitch in their observations. Thanks Guys.

[aliantha]

This is a great idea, peter. Other than the comments about the French translation naming Foamfollower "Briny the Pirate," I've heard very little about it. But this thread probably belongs somewhere SRD-related, so I took it upon myself to ping Orlion about moving it. We'll see what he says...

[Frostheart Grueburn]

There are some posts/thread that handle this issue. See at least this and this.

English was originally my 3rd language, now obviously the second, as daily communications don't demand Swedish that much... I've read all the chrons in English, and did not even become aware of, as the rumormill tells, an utterly sodomized Finnish translation of LFB from the late 70s until maybe a year or two back. Nothing else exists, probably thanks to the initial shoddy work. Hitherto haven't read it, although the local library might have a copy.

SRD's narrative style's difficult in places, but when one has studied several languages, one develops an eye for context-guessing. Hence I haven't found it necessary to haul an Oxford dictionary along; if some word begins pestering me I'll look it up, but otherwise a person doesn't need to know the meaning of every word in order to follow a foreign text.

Quite recently I heard about Swedish translations of books 1-6, but they're beyond my reach. I've stumbled upon a couple of names in Wikipedia, etc. but cannot impart even an outsider opinion on the quality. Pitchwife was translated to Beckmorska, which twists back as Pitch-Brave. The First of the Search was Svärdens Första, which would be The First of the Sword.

But, as far as it's my concern, translation always requires some tweaking and maneuvering. Languages have massive differences in-between one another; for instance Finnish doesn't possess the future tense and no distinction is made between he/she. It's up to the translator's skill as to whether the result runs headlong into a dung-filled gutter or not.

[dlbpharmd]

Pitchwife was translated to Beckmorska, which twists back as Pitch-Brave. The First of the Search was Svärdens Första, which would be The First of the Sword.

Wow, that's really fascinating! Knowing the characters as well as we do, both translations are not far from the mark.

[Vraith]

Languages have massive differences in-between one another; for instance Finnish doesn't possess the future tense and no distinction is made between he/she. It's up to the translator's skill as to whether the result runs headlong into a dung-filled gutter or not.

completely off-topic, but both those things are interesting.
One [of a handful] of difficulties in English/grammar, even for native speakers is subject/verb tense agreement. Partly that's cuz our verbs are freaking stupid and/or borrowed, and so are our "rules" of grammar...hell the grammar is a mix of completely contradictory language structure/rules.

And there are some Native American tongues [Hopi the most commonly heard about] that folk are STILL arguing about whether they have tenses/time or not...though the best view I've seen is that they do have "tenses,"/distinguish time...they just don't do it by the construction of a single verb-form.

Also, there is...I hesitate to call it a movement, but it's growing...on the possessive forms his/her...to replace them, or else to accept "their" as grammatically correct [just dumping his/her, and calling "their" the correct form in both singular and plural].

Closer to topic: I never was advanced enough in the original languages to call myself fluent [or even really a speaker of]...but it doesn't TAKE much to recognize that Moliere in French and Goethe in German are fundamentally different from the English translations.

Semi-on topic...as it happens I have daily contact with a whole cluster of Swedes where I am now [Folk scholarly ABOUT Swedes, folk that ARE both scholars and Swedes, and smart Swedish [and/or Swedish-speaking, or both] students. I'm gonna find if any have read...or try and rope one or two into reading the SRD translates.

[I'm Murrin]

Interesting, Frostheart. I've been hearing a lot lately about the active Finnish SF/F scene, and had the impression that it's one of the markets that sees more work being translated from English these days (along with Sweden) - we seem to be starting to see more work from Sweden and Finland translated into English, too.

[Vader]

Being an English teacher for grade 5 to 13 I have to be as fluent as possible. I always liked the English language and I think that helped a lot.

Actually I always try to read books by English writing authors in English. The Missus doesn't speak English good enough to read novels so I bought her the Chronicles in German. (She never relly got into them, though she loved Mordant's Need. But that's another story) After browsing through the German version of the Chronicles I could understand her. Some of the translations are just downright ridicolous. They completely destroy the magic for me. Just one example. "Bloodguard" sounds bad ass as it gets and I wish they had kept this word in German. "Bluthüter" however sounds like they're job was to look after the bags in a blood bank.

This reminds me a lot of music. Hearing Gene Simmons sing "meet you in the ladies room" was kinda cool back then but the same phrase in German would have made me kick the record player out of the window.

Take for example the LotR. The first German adoption shows that translations don't necessarily have to destroy books. The second translation, however, proves the opposite.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

"Bluthüter" however sounds like they're job was to look after the bags in a blood bank.

Bwahaha, not to mention that "Hüter" means also shepherd. xP The Swedish blodsvakt is a bit better however.

Out of general interest, Bokus'ed the Swedish Chronicles, and found some entries, but they're all slutsåld ~ sold out, as I recall from earlier perusings.

Some other names I came across don't indicate necessarily utter ravaging and disembowelment of the original prose, but like Beckmorska (Yeah, Pitch-Brave does fit his personality, but then again destroys the meaning of his profession.), they aren't always literal. Aaand the third Giant name I stumbled upon, Tackel Havsdrömmare (Seadreamer), which conveys through the exact meaning both ways, made me laugh aloud, especially when I pronounced it in thick riksvenska. There's no circumventing the fact that Swedish sounds...a bit silly.

Well, I'll add a few more. Keep in mind the 2nd and 1st chrons have different translators.

Solgift (sunbane) -- "Sun-venom".
Salthjärta Skumpföljare -- Saltheart Bubblefollower (made me snort); worse as "skumpa" means champagne. Gaah, now I have a mental image of him, Aegir, and the Estonian giant Suur Tõll who loved beer, propelling the same boat with besotted drinking songs.
Helgasten (Revelstone) -- Hallowstone.
Driggel Klippmask (Drool Rockworm) -- a deliberate twist of dregel (drool, saliva) into a different form or maybe this is slang...otherwise literal.
Stjärnfararjuvelen (Starfare's Gem) -- literal, only sounds funny.

Unfortunately I fail to dig out meaning from "Furst Nid", Lord Foul.

[peter]

Thanks Guys. There are a number of translations given above that I just don't understand why they would have been done that way. Why for example would the word 'Bloodguard' be translated as anything other - I'm sure the german language could accomodate the two words 'blood' and 'guard' being tacked together so why would it be changed.

The 'First of the Sword' sounds nice, but is fundamentally different to the 'First of the Search'. Why would it be changed thus if the recieving language could accomodate the original meaning. Pitchwife is a slightly more understandable one because it is a blend of two words, one of which is archaic in its use in this way - 'wife' as in the meaning of to work a material - in this case pitch. It is understandable that this would be a difficult translation to make unless the recieving language had a similar (archaic) term for the same 'working' process. Perhaps the problem is simply 'euphonic' - ie that when translated word for word these names just don't sound good. ie Bloodguard in german just doesn't (maybe) have that 'ring', that good sound that it does in english.

Frostheart, Vader - do you believe it is possible to translate from one language to another a work of the scope of the Chrons - and keep the 'art' intact. Or is it the case that the best of translations will deconstruct the text into words, meanings and ideas - rebuild it into the recieving language and then re-introduce a new art which is the translators into the translated text. (This sounds really wooly - I hope you get what I'm trying to say)

(Ali - I was by no means sure where this thread should go so if it needs moving then by all means do your stuff babe )

[Orlion]

(Ali - I was by no means sure where this thread should go so if it needs moving then by all means do your stuff babe )

She has no power here. I am the Prince of this world

I will use this opportunity to exercise my power and move this topic to the First/Second Chronicles forum, so as not to lose any part of my kingdom.

[Vader]

I think it's a general if names should be translated at all. Take geography for example. Here we have the tendency not to "Germanize" words anymore. "Neu York" would have been acceptable 100 years ago but now you'd get strange looks if youused that name.

I would have used "Bloodguard" in the German version as well. Or I would have gone for something that transports the meaning (a person who guards people with his life/blood, at least that's how I understand it) rather than using a literal translation.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

Well. Translating is an artform of its own. Neither Google Translator nor someone with the imagination and verbal flow of a moldy raisin will produce nicely rolling prose. Differences in the basic language structures make certain things almost impossible to reproduce. The Kalevala for instance: I've read extracts from various English versions and all have disappointed me. English just lacks the richness of expression, and the alliterative verse suffers in the presence of all these rhythm-fragmenting prepositions and articles. Old English might suffice in some fashion, but nobody reads it outside a little knot of geeks.

I don't know why The First got called Svärdens Första, while Sökandes Första might have worked just as well. Maybe the previous just sounded more dramatic? I have no knowledge of a corresponding Swedish term for 'to wive'. Finnish has vaivata, which means "to knead". Linguistically derived from the same source, perhaps? "Pienvaivaaja" could work in Finnish, but honestly it sounds pretty moronic.

And then again, all words never translate well. A while back I looked up some winter/skiing terms, and just ended up with various repetitions of 'snow' and 'ski', while in Finnish distinct words exist for all. Makes it kinda boring and awkward.

suksi -- ski
lyly -- left, longer ski
kalhu -- right, shorter ski
sivakka -- ski
hiihtää -- to ski (cross-country)
sauvoa -- to push with the ski poles
latu -- skiing track (strictly cross-country)
päläs -- position of the foothold
mono -- skiing shoe
sompa -- a rim in the lower part of a ski pole
lasketella -- to ski down a slope
olas -- the groove on the bottom of the ski
mäystin -- A loop on the ski used to fasten the shoes

See what I mean?

[peter]

I've read extracts from various English versions and all have disappointed me. English just lacks the richness of expression, and the alliterative verse suffers in the presence of all these rhythm-fragmenting prepositions and articles.

Not to get on my high horse ( ) but I just can't buy that the language of Shakespear, Chaucer, and Joyce could ever be described as lacking of 'richness of expression' to the point where a translation of The Kalevala that was not dissapointing, was impossible. I would put it that the reason for the dissapointment was far more likely to be the poorness of the translators in the performance of their art than the imposibility of the task. The 'art' would perforce be different and of a distictly english flavour no doubt - but the job could, I say, be done. (I might cite as an example of what I mean 'The King James' translation of the Bible. No doubt the poetry of the original is changed beyond recognition - but the result is one of the greatest expressions of the art of literature ever to be produced in the english language) I am currently reading Les Miserables in translation (gosh how I wish I could read it in the original!) and thanks to the skill of the translator (Norman Denny) the experience is a thing of beauty - but I think it highly possible that the 'aesthetic' of the work I am reading is as much to do, if not more, with Denny as with Hugo.

re the word list - yes I see the point you are making, but am I not right in thinking that many of the terms you give in Finnish (and describe in english) also have equivalent single name terms in english. I'm not a skiing afficienado so could be completely wrong here, but would be suprised if say 'sompa' - a rim on the lower part of the ski-pole' did not have an eqivalent english term or, perhaps more likely, just use the finnish/swiss/french or whatever, term for the equivalent - in which case a term just becomes a 'bridging term' between two languages belonging exclusively to neither.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

Doh, forgot to mention some parts of the terminology pertain to pre-20th century skis. Like lyly/kalhu. In any case, I searched some of those in several different dictionaries. Some didn't even recognize them; Wiktionary yielded the best results. Then I found this today after much ranting: www.skis.com/Glossary-of-Ski-Terms/arti ... lt,pg.html Still, it mostly pertains to downhill skiing and not the tradition of thousands of years old still predominant here (I go to skiing about three times a week at this time of the year. It's not anything one'll do in a skiing resort: you put on a headlight if it's dark and go make your own trail in the nearby woods or fields or follow some pre-made tracks.) However, I have nothing against bridging terms. One would just have to employ a glossary.

Apparently sompa is called either a basket or a ring. Yet in Finnish sompa, as far as I know, means strictly that part of the ski pole, and nothing else. Could be wrong. Yet the word 'ring' suffers also from the same problem. You can dump a fair few distinct Finnish words underneath that same term. Like sormus -- finger-ring, sports-ring -- kaukalo (though also pigs eat from this ), etc. The hollow, circular variant's called rengas.

I'll write something about Kalevala translations later. I dug out three different versions, compared the same runesong (The Origin of Iron), and mainly wanted to stab something yet again after glancing at the notorious Crawford translation. Aside from all three variants destroying the alliterative verse and rhythm, in the C. mess Väinämöinen's called a minstrel. MINSTREL. He's a wizard who weaves incantations and curses with the strength of his voice and kantele playing. In the Estonian variant the vägimees (giant) Vanemuine sings plants and trees into being during the creation of the earth. MINSTREL, my arse.

[peter]

Yes Frostheart - better that a thing not be translated at all than translated in this sloppy fashion. Look forward to any observations you have to make on Kalevala translations and agree that alliteration is always going to present a special problem in translation when it is a central feature of the type of verse being translated.

[Orlion]

English is a rich language... that does not mean it is capable of various things like other languages are. As an example, Dante's Divine Comedy employs a rhyming scheme that, though possible in Italian, would be impossible to transfer to English without destroying the content or making it look silly. English just can not maintain that rhyming scheme for any extent of time.

There's also the idea of translating to one's expectations. For example, because we in the US view Gabriel Garcia Marques as this sort of literary giant, we translate Memoria de mis putas tristes as Record of My Melancholy Whores. A literal translation would yield Memory of my sad bitches. And don't get me started on trying to pass off "Doomed to Die" as a viable translation of "Lo Fatal". So I imagine this goes in areas that expect fantasy to be childish and therefore translate Foamfollower as Briny the Pirate.

Also, the story is written originally in an American understanding. So now, you have to translate to expectations and to a French/Spanish/Finnish mind set... and as Frostheart pointed out, that sometimes is hard to transfer over.

[peter]

Thats a very interesting point re the translation of Dante, Orlion and I have to follow up by asking how then one attempts the translatioan at all. Is it doomed to failure from the start - or does the 'art' of translation allow for a finding of a new rhyming scheme in english that allows the content to be brought acrossas closely to the original as possible. I can see a situation where a new work is being created (and not necessarily one of lesser value) when rhyme and content and word order have been changed so much that little of the original work remains exept as an idea.

(Also noted your other points; the 'expectations' mode of translation is a new idea for me and the Foamfollower/Brinney the Pirate example made me chuckle.)

[Orlion]

Essentially, you have to determine what is most important: the form of the art, the content of the art, or both... and try to translate accordingly. This would ultimately require the translator to be not only a scholar( who would understand the language and the culture from whence the work came) but also an artist (to be able to translate it into the frame of reference of the culture/language he is translating into).

Ultimately, though, you do can not read the actual work unless you read it in the original language (voice).

[Frostheart Grueburn]

Hehe, sorry, can get a bit huffy over the mishandling of cultural inheritance...but surely they could've found something better. Wiseman. Wizard. The frag, even shaman's a better correspondent than a medieval court bard.

Well here you can see some issues with the special Kalevala meter ("nelipolvinen trokee" > there's no proper translation to this either, in some sense comparable to Beowulf's meter) Baltic Finns have employed for thousands of years in their runesongs. Weak and strong alliteration, 8-syllable rhythm, and the habitual repetition of the first stanza through either synonyms or other close kennings/meanings. The meter has also other rules. Some stanzas are freer. See here.

"Tuon seppo tulehen tunki, alle ahjonsa ajeli. (strong and weak alliteration, repetition of the theme)
Lietsoi kerran, lietsoi toisen, lietsoi kerran kolmannenki: (repetition, weak alliteration)
rauta vellinä viruvi, kuonana kohaelevi, (weak alliteration, r. theme, etc.)
venyi vehnäisnä tahasna, rukihisna taikinana
sepon suurissa tulissa, ilmivalkean väessä.

"Siinä huuti rauta raukka: 'Ohoh seppo Ilmarinen!
Ota pois minua täältä tuskista tulen punaisen!'

"Sanoi seppo Ilmarinen: 'Jos otan sinun tulesta,
ehkä kasvat kauheaksi, kovin raivoksi rupeat,
vielä veistät veljeäsi, lastuat emosi lasta.'

"Siinä vannoi rauta raukka, vannoi vaikean valansa
ahjolla, alasimella, vasaroilla, valkkamilla;
sanovi sanalla tuolla, lausui tuolla lausehella:
'Onpa puuta purrakseni, kiven syäntä syöäkseni,
etten veistä veikkoani, lastua emoni lasta


So, try to reconstruct this in English, which is fragmented by articles and prepositions and tiny words... Obviously some translation is nice to exist so that the epic acquires a bit of internationality, but great care ought to be taken outside prose translations, and even then the translator should not butcher details (MINSTREL. Briny the Pirate). Nowadays Wikipedia et al make quick research possible; a translator doesn't need to be a scholar.

More later. I'm so tired my wordings won't make any sense within ten more minutes.

[peter]

It's quite interesting to read this with no knowledge of the language because it allows for examination of the alliteration and to a degree, meter (assuming the 'feet' fall where they naturally would if this were spoken english) without the meaning 'getting in the way'. I think I'm correct that some of the oldest english poetry (perhaps only poetry in 'old english') conforms to this form of allitteration and fixed no of stresses. I don't know if the practice of stating the same meaning with different words in two consequtive lines was practiced - but there must be a common root to these poetic forms (I'm a lay person with an interest, not a scholar on these things so forgive me if I make 'howlers' in my comments ). Frostheart - thanks for your contribution here. It sounds though as if you need some rest, not to be typing away on your computer! .