Just finished WGW - Why didn't Foul wake the worm?

[Stevo]

I read though many posts on the subject of the Arch of Time and the Worm of the Worlds End. There seem to be many different ideas about if one or both exist. After completing the Second Chronicles for the 3rd time, something really stood out to me.

On the one hand we have Foul throwing his entire being into the white gold in an effort to break the arch of time. Foul is so consumed with his effort, he attacks until there is nothing left of him. I'm sure we would all agree that an immense amount of power was release during his attempt to break the Arch of Time.

On the other hand we have a sleeping Worm of the Worlds End. This same worm was supposedly almost aroused when TC was lost in venom and WM on the Isle of the One Tree.

But in the end, Foul's efforts are thwarted, and the worm still sleeps. The fact that TC was able to absorb Fouls attacks does not mean there was no use of power:

from White Gold Wielder, Chapter 19 - Hold Possession: Lord Foul's retort was a bolt that sizzled the air like frying meat. Power fierce enough to blow off the crown of the peak sprang at Covenant, raging for his immolation.

and a few paragraphs later: He [TC] did not oppose it, made no effort to resist or evade the attack. He simply accepted it. The clench of pain between his brows showed that he was hurt; but he did not flinch. The blast raved and scourged into him until Linden feared that even a dead soul could not survive it. Yet when it ended he had taken it all upon himself. Bravely, be stood forth from
the fire.

and a few paragraphs later: But Lord Foul was so far gone in fury and frustration that he might have been deaf. "No!" he roared again. No fear hampered him: he was transported to the verge of absolute violence.

"No!"

"N0!"
 
And with every cry he flung his utterest force against the Unbeliever.
 
Blast after blast, faster and faster. Enough white power to bring Mount Thunder down in rubble, cast it off Landsdrop into the ruinous embrace of Sarangrave Flat. Enough to leave the One Tree itself in ash and cinders. Enough to shatter the Arch of Time. All Lord Foul's ancient puissance was multiplied and channeled by the argent ring. He struck and struck, the unanswerable knell of his hunger adumbrating through Kiril Threndor until Linden's mind reeled and her life almost stopped, unable to support the magnitude of his rage.

Clearly TC protected the Arch of Time from Fouls attacks. But what about this worm? Unless the Worm really is the Arch of Time, it should have woken up.

Spoiler

Which now makes me wonder about this worm that woke up in the Last Chronicles.....

[Sherman Landlearner]

My understanding, such as it is, is that the Worm is WITHIN the Arch, but it ISN'T the Arch. Meaning that if it woke up, it would eat the planet and move on. Leaving Foul all alone, with no way to possibly get the White Gold, or shatter the Arch. So he didn't want the Worm awoken, unless its waking got him the white gold in some manner.

[wayfriend]

Can't help you too much here, Stevo. I'm in the Worm=Arch camp, and so I think TC protected the Worm at this point.

Although another possibility is that Foul, being a master when it comes to weilding tremendous power, was able to tune his attack so that it didn't generate any "noise" that would rouse a Worm. Or that Covenant somehow absorbed the power so effieciently that there wasn't even enough left to disturb the Worm.

Sherman, it seems clear to me from the narrative that rousing the Worm would free Foul, and that the only issue was whether or not Foul had the ring at that time.

"If the Worm is roused, the Earth will end, freeing Despite to wreak its vengeance upon the cosmos.

[Orlion]

The idea is that Covenant was a barrier that absorbed all the force of the blasts.

Let's consider one of your quotes again:

Enough white power to bring Mount Thunder down in rubble, cast it off Landsdrop into the ruinous embrace of Sarangrave Flat. Enough to leave the One Tree itself in ash and cinders. Enough to shatter the Arch of Time.

In that, even though the blast was powerful enough to do all three of those things, we know that Mount Thunder was not brought down to rubble, not cast into the ruinous embrace of Sarangrave Flat. We also know the Arch of Time was not shattered. And though we do not have it confirmed, we can assume the One Tree itself is not reduced to ash and cinders.

That is because Covenant absorbed all of it. Had he not done so, then I can imagine that the Worm could have awoken... amongst other destructive events.

[Zarathustra]

Orlion, I was about to make exactly the same point, exactly the same way. All those things didn't happen. Donaldson wasn't being figurative (otherwise, wild magic isn't all that powerful after all). Covenant absorbed the energy that would have literally done all those things. That's the point of his sacrifice, he takes it upon himself. * Of course, that's not to say that there isn't a metaphorical component to that sacrifice, because ultimately LF is TC's own inner Despiser, and therefore this act must be interpreted as TC directing his own Despite inward, allowing himself to be the victim of it in order to spare the world and everyone else the consequences of his negative side. Perhaps "victim" is the wrong word for that example, because it is a victory. It's more about acceptance, I suppose, admitting that this is part of him. It's a similar point to fusing the venom and the wild magic in the Banefire, and thus "purifying" himself by accepting his own evil. He hasn't become purely good by fusing with the venom; didn't get rid of it. What has become "purified" is his authenticity. He's now true to himself by accepting himself. It is in not accepting that one is capable of evil that good people end up doing bad things. After all, evil people rarely think they're evil. They think what they're doing is just fine.

WF, I have no problem with your theory about Worm=Arch. I think you've made the case exhaustively. However, if it's true, then I have a problem with the way that SRD has written it ...

Spoiler

... specifically the "fake out" worm of the LC. If that's not really the Worm, then it's the cheapest ploy we've seen from him. It would be basically telling the readers, "SUCK-ERS!!" in his best Roger voice.

So while I can't fault your reasoning on its own merits, I hope that it's merely an alternate interpretation that SRD isn't really working with, and didn't really intend, but would applaud you for your effort nonetheless.

*[Edit: Sacrifice being the main theme of the 2nd Chrons ... as seen in his defining act before entering the Land, namely, sacrificing himself for Joan. It's the second way to fight Despite, in contrast the solution of the 1st Chrons: fighting it. Or, the 2nd main strategy for dealing with the problem of evil, as SRD said in the GI.]

[High Lord Tolkien]

The Arch is the dream.
Break the Arch and TC wakes up.

The Worm is the gradual natural awakening process people go through as they wake up.
When there is nothing left for the Worm to "eat", TC will wake up.

[Vraith]

I don't see how Worm and Arch are the same thing...except possibly from some GUT-like view where when the "Universe" was infinitely dense and infinitely hot Wild Magic and Earthpower were one force, and as things "cooled down" [possibly due to the Creator breathing across the "Universe" to cool the infinite soup to reasonable temperatures.. ] the various forces condensed out of it in different forms. [So the Worm waking and eating is heating things up again to the point they merge back together].

But that kind of thing seems to relegate the whole story to something mundane...or even trite. Followed strictly, it means once TC's sacrifice/acceptance/transformation is accomplished it no longer matters if he then chooses to be good or evil, to save or damn.

On the other thing...O's got it, TC absorbs/contains/completes becoming White Gold/all the Wild Magic LF hurls at him. It impacts nothing, or nearly nothing physical...and the Worm is physically embodied currently.

More directly to the original topic...before the Last Chron's existed I thought LF wanted White Gold because he is angry, vengeful, and arrogant. The Worm doing the work for him might satisfy his goal of freedom. But a guy like him would gain infinitely more satisfaction by being personally, directly, the enactor of revenge/destruction. Yes, he often acts through others by corrupting...but it is HIM doing the corrupting. Waking the Worm would be too many degrees of separation for him.

I still think that is part of his personality/identity.
The LC's suggest additional reasons, and plans [which I won't discuss here]...but I still think he wants to be able to claim as much personal responsibility as possible.

[peter]

In the light of the Last Chrons it is a difficult subject to consider in depth in this place. For me, at the pre-last Chrons stage the Worm and the Arch were two distinct creation myths which I was able to (partialy) resolve/accomodate by seeing them as say versions of the Chinese and Indian creation myths in our world. The 'truth' of one or the other is not really the significant point in respect to them but rather they should be seen as different facets/windows onto a higher truth that each in it's own way mirrors, and (more importantly) engenders a mode of belief/bevavior that benefits both the society and the indidual within it. I think the paradox of the Worm and the Arch was one that each of us had to solve for ourselves in a way that we were comfortable with. Certainly in the first instance they seemed mutually exclusive, which in itself would explain why Foul did not wake the worm - both being of different explanations of what was happening in the World or how it had come to be in the first place. Now as we all know things are not as simple and we wait for the final peices to fall into place to see if we can at last make sense of it.

[wayfriend]

The problem with the alternate myths theory is that it only works when they are myths. Two contradictory stories can be accepted at face value only as long as they are just stories.

Once the Worm starts sinking an Island ... once Foul cries, ""Ware of me, my Enemy! I hold the keystone of Time, and I will reave it to rubble! Oppose me if you dare!" ... it's becomes clear that they are not JUST stories.

So it's a bit more challenging to reconcile the myths. Either one is true and the rest are not. Or they are all true in some physical, literal way.

It's maybe possible that Foul, in his moment of triumph, holding the ring and flinging wild magic, had the wherewithal to stick to the terms of the mythology when he cried out to the heavens. But it doesn't seem plausible to me. It looks to me like Foul believes the Arch is very, very real. The Creator is very, very real.

[Vraith]

Or they are all true in some physical, literal way.

That. Especially if we keep in mind that some things that we in the real world call metaphysical have physical/literal components there. I've said before, for example, that the Arch of Time is an alloy of the metaphysical and the physical. [which is tied to both its efficacy AND its vulnerability]
I think that is also true of the first Staff of Law, it is definitely true of the second one. It's even true of many of the denizens of the world.

The differing myths are just interpretations/stories that start from different subsets of facts. And no one tells them by/through objective, clinical, scientific method lenses/structures.
I also think it is important that myths seem [and partly do] to tell us about our past...but the real purpose is to explain who/what/how the "tellers" are NOW...and point towards what they should be/become...so different beings/cultures would evolve/favor/tell different stories even IF they included all of, and the same, literal facts.

[peter]

Does it have to be any more complex than that if Foul wakes the worm and the Earth is destryed but the Arch remains - then he is still imprisoned alone within the Arch but with i) no toys to play with re the spreading of Despite, and ii) more importantly no tools to manipulate with which to effect the desruction of the Arch.

[wayfriend]

No, it doesn't need to be more complex than that. It's just that this theory is contradicted in the story. ""If the Worm is roused, the Earth will end, freeing Despite", etc. Worse to me is that it frees Covenant and Linden from the consequences of their actions: they might rouse the Worm, but Foul won't be freed, so it's not as bad as it could be. You could argue that saving the Earth is important enough, but I feel that dealing with Foul is equally as important, and that this gives them an "out" that they shouldn't have.

Also, notably, the wounded rainbow myth and the würd myth seem to have no place in this scheme. It seems like an accounting of the myths should account for all of them.

[peter]

It was never going to be that easy was it - and it's better that it isn't! (Peter prostrates himself in the face of Wayfriends encyclopedic knowledge of the text and throws himself on the mercy of the court ).

[wayfriend]

No, peter! You could be exactly right... trust your gut. There're been enough internal consistency issues on this point to float any theory. For example, at one time Findail says if the Worm is roused Foul escapes, in another he says Foul can't escape unless he has the ring when the Worm is roused.

[Zarathustra]

The problem with the alternate myths theory is that it only works when they are myths. Two contradictory stories can be accepted at face value only as long as they are just stories.

Not unless the thing they are describing is itself contradictory or paradoxical. That wouldn't be surprising in a story about paradox. Or if the two stories were talking about two different literal things.

Once the Worm starts sinking an Island ... once Foul cries, ""Ware of me, my Enemy! I hold the keystone of Time, and I will reave it to rubble! Oppose me if you dare!" ... it's becomes clear that they are not JUST stories.

So it's a bit more challenging to reconcile the myths. Either one is true and the rest are not. Or they are all true in some physical, literal way.

It's maybe possible that Foul, in his moment of triumph, holding the ring and flinging wild magic, had the wherewithal to stick to the terms of the mythology when he cried out to the heavens. But it doesn't seem plausible to me. It looks to me like Foul believes the Arch is very, very real. The Creator is very, very real.

[/quote]Just because Foul believes in Time, and the power of Wild Magic to break its structure, doesn't mean he believes in a literal Arch. Nor does it mean he believes in the Rainbow Myth.

I don't see the problem in assuming that the ring was the "keystone of time" because it had the power to wake the Worm, ending the earth's existence, which also breaks the Arch. I suppose I just don't see what the problem is here in reconciling the two myths. If they were both talking about two different things from the beginning--Arch vs Worm--then there's no contradiction in both of them being literally true, since they both have a literal counterpart. Equating the Arch with the Worm (literally) doesn't clear up the confusion, it only makes us ask why some people described this one thing as rainbow, and some others described it as a Worm. Honestly, I don't see the payoff in assuming both of these myths were about the same entity/phenomenon. How does that clear up any contradiction? That seems to create contradiction.

The Arch is the context or state of being into which the earth can have its "place/time," its specific being. Within it, the Creator created the earth. Why couldn't he have created the earth with a literal Worm which entered this place/time/context? Then both are literally real. It wouldn't be any stranger than supposing that an immortal, timeless Being which was either the Creator's brother or his evil half then entered this world, too.

The two myths seemed to have always been about two different things. The Rainbow wasn't the earth, it was the Arch. Whereas the Worm was the earth itself (or its doom/end). The Arch isn't the Earth, nor its doom/end, but rather its context or place in time.

[peter]

Could someone just really briefly..er...brief me as to how the two creation myths went. I like Z's comment re the two myths refering to two different things - but I can't reconcile it with my memory and ( ) I have no copies of the 1st and 2nd Chrons at the moment (I keep giving mine away!).

IIRC the Creator creates the world for his (starry) children to dance in but LF sneaks in spreading Malice. The Creator then in anger tears down the ....(?)..... thereby imprisoning Foul within the created Earth. [Where does the rainbow come in and what does it signify].

Creation myth 2 has the Worm cruising through space hoovering up stars like a humpback whale feeding on Krill. Briefly sated, the Wurm coils itself up and goes to sleep where, over the ensueing eons of slumber it exudes a crusty coat which ultimately hardens into the surface of the Earth. Thus, in waking the Wyrm will shake itself and slough off the Earth like a dog shaking off so much dust and sand from it's coat.

Do I have it something like here or not. If so, how could Z's explanation ( which I repeat I like the sound of) be made to work.

[Zarathustra]

Wayfriend has an excellent thread on the subject, but it's not brief. The link was around here somewhere ... I think it's in the Runes forum.

IIRC, the Rainbow was what the Creator tore down. It was like a gateway to the Earth. His children saw it, delighted in it, and then danced their way inside. Meanwhile, LF also entered, and placed a flaw in the Rainbow, pissing off the Creator, who then destroyed it and trapped LF inside.

I think there's another version of the Rainbow myth, too, a little more detailed. I've forgotten what the differences are.

Anyway, my main point was that the Rainbow stood for the Arch, whereas the Worm stood for the Earth. Granted, that's the literal translation for each, assuming the Worm can be taken as the physical earth itself (there are good reasons to question that) and that the Arch is a real thing, not just a metaphor for Time. But either way, figurative or literally, these are different. Figuratively speaking, the Worm would signify mortality/entropy, whereas the Arch would signify the context in which mortality and Ending can happen. Time isn't the same as entropy, but they're both closely related. In fact, entropy gives us the "arrow of time," because it points the direction in which things "run down." All other physical equations have no preference with regards to the direction of time, except the 2nd law of thermodynamics (i.e. entropy, or mortality).

[wayfriend]

Both the Arch and the Worm are the framework upon which the Earth depends in order to exist. One is external, and one is internal, from which point one can infer many things. But also both are prerequisite [the Earth's existence depends on them] and foundational [the Earth is the way it is because of them] and fateful [the doom of the Earth is linked to them], from which points we should also infer many things. For instance: looking at it one way, we can conclude that both might exist, but looking at it from another way, we might ask why the Earth needs two frameworks upon which it depends for existence.

[Vraith]

we might ask why the Earth needs two frameworks upon which it depends for existence.

I don't know...why does the earth need electromagnetics AND gravity [and several other things as well].

Or, different question, does the world need both Arch and Worm? Or does it just have both cuz that's how things happened to happen?
I don't think it could exist without the Arch or something like it...but it could exist without the Worm. Just a different kind of world would have happened [no elohim? no earthpower? many kinds of difference...none meaning no world. Hell, that could be how you get TC's world...only an Arch.]

[peter]

There seem to be paradoxes here other than the standard ones of the impossibility of TC's position and the 'save or damn' dilema which he faces - and of course it's right that there should be so. My next re-read, which has to be soon in preparation for the final chapter, should be an interesting one - now all I need to do is get some books.........