What Happened to All the Nice Guys?

[Harbinger]

From Best of Craigslist

"What Happened to All the Nice Guys?"
I see this question posted with some regularity in the personals section, so I thought I'd take a minute to explain things to the ladies out there that haven't figured it out.

What happened to all the nice guys?

The answer is simple: you did.

See, if you think back, really hard, you might vaguely remember a Platonic guy pal who always seemed to want to spend time with you. He'd tag along with you when you went shopping, stop by your place for a movie when you were lonely but didn't feel like going out, or even sit there and hold you while you sobbed and told him about how horribly the (other) guy that you were fucking treated you.

At the time, you probably joked with your girlfriends about how he was a little puppy dog, always following you around, trying to do things to get you to pay attention to him. They probably teased you because they thought he had a crush on you. Given that his behavior was, admittedly, a little pathetic, you vehemently denied having any romantic feelings for him, and buttressed your position by claiming that you were "just friends." Besides, he totally wasn't your type. I mean, he was a little too short, or too bald, or too fat, or too poor, or didn't know how to dress himself, or basically be or do any of the things that your tall, good-looking, fit, rich, stylish boyfriend at the time pulled off with such ease.

Eventually, your Platonic buddy drifted away, as your relationship with the boyfriend got more serious and spending time with this other guy was, admittedly, a little weird, if you weren't dating him. More time passed, and the boyfriend eventually cheated on you, or became boring, or you realized that the things that attracted you to him weren't the kinds of things that make for a good, long-term relationship. So, now, you're single again, and after having tried the bar scene for several months having only encountered players and douche bags, you wonder, "What happened to all the nice guys?"

Well, once again, you did.

You ignored the nice guy. You used him for emotional intimacy without reciprocating, in kind, with physical intimacy. You laughed at his consideration and resented his devotion. You valued the aloof boyfriend more than the attentive "just-a-" friend. Eventually, he took the hint and moved on with his life. He probably came to realize, one day, that women aren't really attracted to guys who hold doors open; or make dinners just because; or buy you a Christmas gift that you mentioned, in passing, that you really wanted five months ago; or listen when you're upset; or hold you when you cry. He came to realize that, if he wanted a woman like you, he'd have to act more like the boyfriend that you had. He probably cleaned up his look, started making some money, and generally acted like more of an asshole than he ever wanted to be.

Fact is, now, he's probably getting laid, and in a way, your ultimate rejection of him is to thank for that. And I'm sorry that it took the complete absence of "nice guys" in your life for you to realize that you missed them and wanted them. Most women will only have a handful of nice guys stumble into their lives, if that.

So, if you're looking for a nice guy, here's what you do:

1.) Build a time machine.
2.) Go back a few years and pull your head out of your ass.
3.) Take a look at what's right in front of you and grab ahold of it.

I suppose the other possibility is that you STILL don't really want a nice guy, but you feel the social pressure to at least appear to have matured beyond your infantile taste in men. In which case, you might be in luck, because the nice guy you claim to want has, in reality, shed his nice guy mantle and is out there looking to unleash his cynicism and resentment onto someone just like you.

If you were five years younger.

So, please: either stop misrepresenting what you want, or own up to the fact that you've fucked yourself over. You're getting older, after all. It's time to excise the bullshit and deal with reality. You didn't want a nice guy then, and he certainly doesn't fucking want you, now.

Sincerely,

A Recovering Nice Guy

LOL! How many of you have seen that happen! Just want to say that I was never that guy, but I've seen a couple of guys go through that and there is a lot of truth in that little narrative.

*Note to guys who are frustrated "just friends." If you ain't hittin' it, you need to be quittin' it.

[rdhopeca]

Amen.

[Orlion]

*shrug*

People just need to realize that sometimes, maybe a lot of times, your affection will not be reciprocated. They are not asking you for it, you only have yourself to blame for pursuing such a futile course.

Also makes me believe this person was never a Nice Guy after all. I mean, it's implied that he only did all these things for "physical intimacy". Never really cared about the other person to begin with, further demonstrated by this post full of "you got yours!" attitude.

[rdhopeca]

I don't think it's about that at all. I think that what most people don't realize is that they won't get any points attempting to save or rescue someone else from their emotional issues. When you love someone or think you love someone your first instinct is to help or protect (assuming you are a nice guy, I suppose). But by doing so that doesn't get the person you are helping to feel the same way about you, and in reality you don't want someone to love because you are the white knight. You want them to love you for you. For me, it was never about physical intimacy, it was about being wanted for who you were, and believing that who you were was a nice guy who offered help and support.

I'll shrug with you though, it is what it is. I got over it a long time ago.

[I'm Murrin]

It's the same old entitled attitude you see all over the place where these "nice guys" think they're automatically better than anyone the person they're interested in likes, and that they somehow deserve a relationship just for being nice. Notice the way this all tries to make it her fault that she wasn't interested in him that way, and implies that she was deliberately misleading. Reassigning responsibility onto the other party.

*Note to guys who are frustrated "just friends." If you ain't hittin' it, you need to be quittin' it.

Are you saying that sex is the only reason to be friends with a woman?

Okay, I get that if the guy in question is only being friends in expectation of sex, he needs to quit and grow the fuck up, but I'm hoping you didn't mean that as a general statement.

[Iolanthe]

Nice guys?

I knew/know a nice guy. We were at college together, and relationships at college get pretty close, living in each others' pockets day in, day out, but this was platonic except for one incident that I'll come back to.

We spent quite a lot of time together as he was playing Giuseppe when we did the Gondoliers, had a lovely baritone voice but couldn't read music, so I had to teach him his part which took some time although he was fairly quick at picking it up. I only knew him for 2 years as, although he was the same age as me, his mother had died of cancer in the previous year and he had taken a year out so was in the year below me. We remained friends throughout those 2 years, or most of them, and he even turned up unexpectedly at my wedding after I had left college.

We got in touch again about 20 years ago, I can't remember how now, when he told me he had eventually married and had 3 children. From then on we sent Christmas cards.

Then two years ago he sent a friend request on FB which of course I accepted. He was coming up to 60 and wanted to know more about his family - would I do some research for him. I was able to get quite a lot of info for him, back to the late 18th century, and sent it along to him. Then we started generally chatting and he picked up from me, without me actually saying so, that I was feeling a bit down and boring, and proceeded to cheer me up - or I suppose that was what he thought he was doing.

He told me that he had been in love with me at college! At some point I remember that I spent a couple of hours in his room - just talking and snogging (as we used to say). After that we just went back to being good friends again. He didn't take his opportunity then so he can't complain. He has this big idea about violins and seeing me across a crowded room etc. He sent me poetry and we spent about 6 weeks talking on FB - I was feeling like a teenager again! Then he was coming to Lincolnshire to a friend's 60th birthday celebrations - could we meet? So C and I went to the pub and had a very nice lunch with his friends. He was the same old chap - nice guy. After about 5 minutes 40 years just rolled away. When we left he came out to the car park with me (C had gone to the loo) and attempted to plant a kiss, but not realising what he was doing I turned my head and he just caught my left eyebrow. Neither of us commented.

After that the messages on FB suddenly stopped. Seems his wife had read the messages and thought he was having an affair. He was in deep trouble. We haven't been in contact much since.

Why did he wait 40 years to tell me, or why did he bother to tell me at all after all that time? I was going out with C when I knew him, but I wasn't engaged to him yet. I didn't even know I had a choice! Still, I looked at my life now and decided that if I had had a choice, I would still have chosen C.

[SoulBiter]

Wow... Some of these nice guys were exactly that. They were hoping that eventually the girl would see from how they were treated that what they were looking for was under there noses the whole time.

My friends and I always joked "Treat them like crap and they will love you forever". Yeah not a great joke but we saw it lived out so many times. Guys who treated their girls like crap and yet the girls fawned all over them. They could lie, cheat, yell at them, and generally treat them terribly, and yet the girls came back for them time after time. Worse, usually there was a line of girls that couldn't wait for their chance to go out with these guys.

[Orlion]

And while we're at it, why aren't these "nice guys" trying to hook up with "nice girls"? Why are they instead seeking out what are "abusive emotional relationships" continually even as they sneer at girls that do the same as if they were above it?

Bull.

As Io's story demonstrated, these guys rarely, if ever, make their feelings known. They just expect the girl to be psychic and know all this stuff intuitively (guys...amIright?) Ultimately, these type of "nice guys" (that would write rants like this) just do not want to do the work... or they are surrounded by other friends that do not point out to them: "hey, you are not attracted to girls based solely on 'niceness', why do you expect girls to be attracted to you, based solely 'on who you are'?" It's a double standard and they shouldn't be surprised when they are treated as they treat others.

Edit: The Main Ingredient did a song that pretty much acts as the perfect rebuttal, with its combination of practical advice and bemusement at those that find themselves in this situation... much like how those grown up can not take the "why don't the popular kids like me?" completely as serious as the seventh grader... with age comes perspective, and what one thinks is important is shown to be somewhat silly.

[Vraith]

Maybe niceness just isn't that important/attractive a quality, in the grand scheme.
OR maybe it only BECOMES important/attractive once one gets to the point where one really starts to care about the grand scheme.
OR maybe there are other more important/attractive qualities that not-nice folk usually have, and nice ones usually lack.
Maybe the wish for niceness comes from nostalgia or self-delusion or any number of other things....much like many many many people long for a relaxing day lounging on a tropical beach. No interruptions, free from the cares of the world. But lots of folk, once they get it, are bitching and whining or bored to death after a day or less.
And almost no one can stand it for very long.
Cuz it is "nice,"...and almost nothing else.

I will tell you this, though: a "nice guy" doesn't get pissed off or turn into a jerk cuz some chick won't give it up.

[rdhopeca]

It's the same old entitled attitude you see all over the place where these "nice guys" think they're automatically better than anyone the person they're interested in likes, and that they somehow deserve a relationship just for being nice. Notice the way this all tries to make it her fault that she wasn't interested in him that way, and implies that she was deliberately misleading. Reassigning responsibility onto the other party.

*Note to guys who are frustrated "just friends." If you ain't hittin' it, you need to be quittin' it.

Are you saying that sex is the only reason to be friends with a woman?

Okay, I get that if the guy in question is only being friends in expectation of sex, he needs to quit and grow the fuck up, but I'm hoping you didn't mean that as a general statement.

"Entitlement" is the wrong word. The more correct word would be "bewilderment". And IO's story notwithstanding, not all nice guys turn into creepy people in their 60s.

Frankly, I was, and still am, amazed at the number of people (not just women) who stay in unhealthy relationships when there are better options available, up to and including not being in a relationship. That includes the "nice guys" who hang on to the hope that the girl they love who would rather stay home at night while her druggie boyfriend is out cheating on her than move on to something new wakes up tomorrow and realized how much better the nice guy would be for her. Neither case is healthy.

As someone once said, no one is perfect, so find someone just as screwed up as you are and settle down. But don't hinge yourself on someone who feels they deserve to be with a low-life...you'll never fix it, it will never work out for you, and in the end you'll have wasted valuable time you could have spent finding that special screwed up someone.

[ussusimiel]

I agree with a lot of what has been said above. Younger women especially are not interested in 'nice' guys. They are interested in assertive guys whom they find physically attractive. 'Nice' guys who hang around women they are physically attracted to but who are not physically attracted to them, are deluding themselves (and are guilty of double standards, as Orlion has said).

'Nice' guys fear the rejection that might result if they were to openly express their interest and so, they also display their lack of assertiveness (thus making themselves less attractive). The resentment that results is solely their own responsibility and lashing out at women is a sign of their lack of self-awareness. Double standards like this have been applied to women for a long time. Have they never heard of feminism?

Abusive relationships occur because of deep-set unconscious experiences that are not amenable to rational thought. There can be some growth in awareness with time and work, but many people do not have the capacity or the willingness to face that work. And they will play out abusive patterns all their lives, which can be very frustrating for those looking on.

u.

[Holsety]

I think I am an enormously complicated nice guy who has done terrible things without even realizing why they are terrible until later (i.e., they feel bizarre until "networked" with other memories which create an interplay of insults or misunderstandings that I didn't comprehend except in hindsight).

However, I don't think that being nice makes me entitled to either a girlfriend or a job. I suppose that's unfortunate - I won't deny that, in the hypothetical, I'd like both, but I don't think I'm really cut out for either. I'll still keep working on the job front though. I'm not even sure I know how to shed the nice guy persona if I wanted to, but unfortunately I think I have a positive inclination towards becoming a creep (it just seems like fun).

Also, even though I do have some crushes in my woodwork, I know they are far past the pale into the realm of nonsense, so they are more like fixations than any sort of sweet emotional romance kinda stuff. But I can kind of imagine myself going "JOAN (replace with someone I barely know), YOU GAVE UP EVERYTHING" like Thomas Covenant in LFB sometimes.

Maybe the wish for niceness comes from nostalgia or self-delusion or any number of other things....much like many many many people long for a relaxing day lounging on a tropical beach. No interruptions, free from the cares of the world. But lots of folk, once they get it, are bitching and whining or bored to death after a day or less.

That's why I think I might want it to be until the day I die (of hunger or thirst or savage beast) - no matter my complaints, the loneliness will be over soon.

[I'm Murrin]

Good post, ussussimiel.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

I don't believe in "nice guys." I think they're all scumbag actors with confidence problems, trying to worm their way into the hearts of women they know are way out of their league. We should also note that men can be nice / courteous without letting women walk all over them.

[rdhopeca]

I don't believe in "nice guys." I think they're all scumbag actors with confidence problems, trying to worm their way into the hearts of women they know are way out of their league. We should also note that men can be nice / courteous without letting women walk all over them.

Interesting response, I am not sure whether to take this seriously or not, so I'll take it at face value.

Basically, your point is, it's better to openly be truthful about the fact that you are a scumbag like yourself, than to be nice and respectful to people, whether it's an act or not?

Cool. Obviously I had it wrong from the beginning, that whole honesty / integrity deal.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

I don't believe in "nice guys." I think they're all scumbag actors with confidence problems, trying to worm their way into the hearts of women they know are way out of their league. We should also note that men can be nice / courteous without letting women walk all over them.

Interesting response, I am not sure whether to take this seriously or not, so I'll take it at face value.

Basically, your point is, it's better to openly be truthful about the fact that you are a scumbag like yourself, than to be nice and respectful to people, whether it's an act or not?

Cool. Obviously I had it wrong from the beginning, that whole honesty / integrity deal.

Try reading the third sentence, as being nice alone does not make one a "nice guy" along the lines of the OP. Honesty and integrity begins with being honest with yourself and others. And hanging around, pretending to be friends with women that you go home and fantasize about bedding as you masturbate, is neither honesty nor integrity. Nor is manipulating these women intellectually and emotionally while serving as a hidden rival for the romantic attachments of your "Platonic" love. If that is what passes for honesty and integrity with you, then I prize your opprobrium.

[rdhopeca]

I don't believe in "nice guys." I think they're all scumbag actors with confidence problems, trying to worm their way into the hearts of women they know are way out of their league. We should also note that men can be nice / courteous without letting women walk all over them.

Interesting response, I am not sure whether to take this seriously or not, so I'll take it at face value.

Basically, your point is, it's better to openly be truthful about the fact that you are a scumbag like yourself, than to be nice and respectful to people, whether it's an act or not?

Cool. Obviously I had it wrong from the beginning, that whole honesty / integrity deal.

Try reading the third sentence, as being nice alone does not make one a "nice guy" along the lines of the OP. Honesty and integrity begins with being honest with yourself and others. And hanging around, pretending to be friends with women that you go home and fantasize about bedding as you masturbate, is neither honesty nor integrity. Nor is manipulating these women intellectually and emotionally while serving as a hidden rival for the romantic attachments of your "Platonic" love. If that is what passes for honesty and integrity with you, then I prize your opprobrium.

Since I'm still excellent friends with the ladies that I happened to be in this situation with, I can tell you that I was never dishonest with them, and you are making comments about situations of which you are unaware. I certainly never pretended to be anything else, or treated them with anything less than respect, which was preferable to what the other people might be doing that (allegedly) was getting their attention.

And you can throw all the "home fantasizing" B.S. out the window, dude. That was never the basis of these relationships.

There are always going to be situations in life where your feelings will not be reciprocated. It's going to get even tougher if you have emotional connections to someone who wants to stay just friends, and ends up needing emotional support. Blowing up that relationship by being (allegedly) honest about having stronger connections may not do either person any benefit in the end. Sometimes it's better for all involved to stay friends.

If that makes me a "scumbag liar", then so be it. I'll take it over being a true scumbag.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

Interesting response, I am not sure whether to take this seriously or not, so I'll take it at face value.

Basically, your point is, it's better to openly be truthful about the fact that you are a scumbag like yourself, than to be nice and respectful to people, whether it's an act or not?

Cool. Obviously I had it wrong from the beginning, that whole honesty / integrity deal.

Try reading the third sentence, as being nice alone does not make one a "nice guy" along the lines of the OP. Honesty and integrity begins with being honest with yourself and others. And hanging around, pretending to be friends with women that you go home and fantasize about bedding as you masturbate, is neither honesty nor integrity. Nor is manipulating these women intellectually and emotionally while serving as a hidden rival for the romantic attachments of your "Platonic" love. If that is what passes for honesty and integrity with you, then I prize your opprobrium.

Since I'm still excellent friends with the ladies that I happened to be in this situation with, I can tell you that I was never dishonest with them, and you are making comments about situations of which you are unaware. I certainly never pretended to be anything else, or treated them with anything less than respect, which was preferable to what the other people might be doing that (allegedly) was getting their attention.

And you can throw all the "home fantasizing" B.S. out the window, dude. That was never the basis of these relationships.

There are always going to be situations in life where your feelings will not be reciprocated. It's going to get even tougher if you have emotional connections to someone who wants to stay just friends, and ends up needing emotional support. Blowing up that relationship by being (allegedly) honest about having stronger connections may not do either person any benefit in the end. Sometimes it's better for all involved to stay friends.

If that makes me a "scumbag liar", then so be it. I'll take it over being a true scumbag.

I'm not commenting on your situation. For all I know you are an outstanding person. And I didn't say I didn't believe in cross-gender friendships, although I feel they require a certain amount of maturity to be genuine. What I don't believe is that the "nice guys" hanging around letting the women they pine for in private walk all over them then while never getting laid are really "nice guys," I think they are just pretending to be "nice guys." Being nice is not the same as being a doormat. One can be direct, have balls, be a true friend to a member of the opposite sex, and still be a kind and genuine person. Perhaps that is exactly what you are.

And I think the OP is misguided if it blames women for not falling for these doormat "nice guys" without enough self esteem or cojones to at least indicate to the woman that they "love" (I don't really believe that that kind of love is real either) that they have a romantic interest. In fact I think it is kind of misogynistic.

Whom does woman hate most?- Thus spoke the iron to the magnet: "I hate you most, because you attract me, but are too weak to draw me to you."

[Hashi Lebwohl]

The entire discussion of whatever might have happened to the nice guys (or nice girls) and whether or not a relationship is going how you want it to go is because too many people are actively looking for what they think they want in a relationship, not what they actually need. If you stop trying to force a relationship into a preconceived box then perhaps you can make some progress in that area.

I was the "nice guy" back when I was younger. It got me a couple of dates that never turned into serious relationships but it did land me one quasi-serious relationship that turned into unrequited love--oh, I knew she was "the one" but for reasons in her life she ran away from that which caused me a few struggles in the subsequent years. Only when I wasn't looking did I meet the one who was "the one"; alas, our youth and poor parental patterns caused us to have a rift. Damn shame, that, because there isn't anything quite like realizing you wasted 20 years. Fortunately for us we were given a second chance....
Anyway....where was I? Oh, yes....I remained a "nice guy" because I believed that to be the right kind of person to be. I could say that this earned me no attention (which would be true) but that is fine with me as I do not prefer the limelight. However, the fact of being a "nice guy" is that being the nice guy is its own reward, even if you aren't "getting any" because of it. Life isn't a sporting event so it isn't won based on how many points you score.

What happened to all the nice guys? Sure, some of them turned into assholes because they felt like they weren't getting enough. Most of them simply stopped looking because they realized that being nice wasn't leading to the kind of relationship they wanted but they didn't want to become assholes. When they stopped looking, they ran into the nice girls who had also stopped looking and something wonderful happened.

[[Syl]]

I was a nice guy once. I'm the same guy I ever was, but I no longer consider myself a nice guy. What happened?

First off, let me say that I was that guy. I held girls while they cried, got them cleaned up when they were sick. Helped guide them through the screwed-up choices that they made while still mostly telling them what they wanted to hear so that they'd actually listen (this isn't being sexist, either. I've found that most people, male or female, have no interest in hearing why most things that annoy or pain them are largely their fault, myself included). Spent way too much money on some of them and felt like a sucker afterward.

I genuinely felt for them, so it wasn't like I was only doing it just to get somewhere (not necessarily sex, mind you, but damn, just having a girlfriend woulda been nice sometimes). But I grew up thinking that if you do good things for people, good things will be done for you. I also grew up thinking that some day I'd be an astronaut (no, seriously, I had plans on how I was going to be on the space station years before they even began building it). Is it possible, sure, but not likely. The likely result, as psychology will tell you, is that the more you help someone, the more inclined you become to help them, not the other way around. One day, you're helping a girl move a couch. Months down the road you're cosigning on a car... while some guy you can't stand has sex with that girl on that couch and crashes that car into a 7-11.

So yeah, it's not that you're doing these things to have sex, but after a while, you realize you've put a lot of work into this "relationship" and received zero return.

Back to what happened to me. I'll tell you. One day I did myself and everyone else a favor and said, "I don't give a fuck." And I did say it, out loud, to no one in particular. More importantly, I meant it. I stopped caring about rejection. Stopped caring about what I thought I had to do to get laid and only worried about what I wanted to do. If I wanted to be friends with a girl, we'd be friends (and having been on the other side of that fence, I can say it isn't fun). If I wanted more, I'd put it out there, in pretty obvious terms (though not blatantly. I mean, there is such a thing as decency).

I wish I could say that this is a foolproof strategy. All I know is, weeks later I was dating a smoking hot girl I met in a club. Several months later, we were married. Years later we have two kids. *shrug*

It's funny. Just like that "You can be anything you want to" stuff we tell kids (or ourselves), we also pretend that what's on the inside matters. It's true, but very limited. Being anything we want to takes a lot of hard work, a good amount of luck, and often isn't as awesome as we'd expected. Most of us aren't prepared—in many ways—for that. Being true to yourself matters, but it comes at a pretty big cost, which most of us aren't prepared to handle. Ask Socrates.

Before I wrap this up, let me say that there's also something to be said for salesmanship. Knowing women a bit better than I did at 21 and talking to guys who have what appears to be improbable success with the opposite sex, I can say that how you present things matter. As in sales (a job I hated with a passion):

A. You have to have confidence. If you doubt yourself, how can you expect someone else to trust you with real intimacy? I've never seen a confident guy stuck as a friend, though I have seen a few confident guys go from just friends to much more.

B. You have to dress up the package (not manscaping, but that might not hurt). I'm a jeans and t-shirt guy, but strangely, most girls don't go for that (no, not even that t-shirt which is really funny, interesting, or has that band that shows how good your musical taste is). Or the un-haircut (not to be confused with haircuts that look like crap but take hours of work/product). It may require dancing or other things outside of a man's comfort zone.

And C. You have to ask for the sale. As a guy, I tend to think anything greater than eye contact and less than hostile glaring equals interest in me, but it seems to take more than that for women. Sure, there are some out there, especially these days, it seems, who are as forward as men, but generally, if you don't put yourself out there, you're not going anywhere. It's safe hanging out in the friend zone, sure, but it's also a bit cowardly. It goes back to the confidence thing. Make your intentions clear, and if your intentions aren't returned, walk away. There won't be any hard feelings.

I didn't become an asshole (even if that's what a few friends said I should do). Not a player, a chauvenist, or man-whore, either. I just decided I was going to be true to myself. And if that means being the king of the doormats to someone else, then that's fine. Just don't whine about it. If you don't get what you want out of a relationship, leave, but don't pretend all the "niceness" in the world earns you pussy. You can only be "used," as the OP puts it, if you let yourself be.

And so the other side of the OP seems to be, "Hey, bitches, you reap what you sow." Maybe that's true, but it sounds awfully bitter. I don't know why a real nice guy would care. It reminded me of a time I was talking to an ex-girlfriend (the ex-girlfriend), she told me that she had since had her heart broken by some guy and that I would... not sure how she put it, but find some comfort in that. I was kind of offended by the remark. I was unhappy with how things ended, but I really loved the girl and wouldn't want to see her hurt. Her pain in no way diminished mine.

And really, I don't think it's true. Most people seem to get along in life. Nice guys find a girl right for them eventually, assholes end up with girls and turn into the biggest p-whipped guys around. Most people find somebody. The suffering in between is part of life (and the suffering after... oy vey )