Did the Old Lords Sabatoge the future Generations?

[Vraith]

The issue I want to raise here is that in our "real world" societies we don't have the Oath of Peace but we do have something else that prevents people from taking out their grief on other people who have killed, raped or otherwise seriously harmed their loved ones. It's called the rule of law. Even if we leave aside arguments about issues such as the adequacy of sentences, the death penalty, etc., what is legally right is often not the same as what is morally fair, and court sentences and sanctions often fall short of what crime victims and those close to them feel should be done to the criminal. Also, the legal process doesn't allow e.g. the parents of rape survivors the catharsis of punching the rapist's lights out. Would we then say that the rule of law in our societies denies such people the right to feel what they feel, or makes it wrong for them to feel that? I wouldn't say that. I would say that there are other ways that people should be able to find healing for their hurt. Could the same be said about Trell and the Oath of Peace?

I approve the line of thought.
The conclusion isn't so, though, in my view.
Cuz there is no [in the real world] direct connection between literal passion and literal power. Among other things.
The Oath probably WAS intended to be more like you say...other options, ways to heal and deal.
But it BECAME what I said.
Later, when Mhoram says "We'll find a new way," he THINKS he's trying to change how people work with lore/power.
What he's REALLY doing [unbeknownst to even his wise self] is trying [and unalterably failing] to change the essence of natural life.

[Orlion]

At the center of the First chronicles is the idea of oaths. Berek swore an oath that he and his descendants would serve the Earth, and Kevin broke that oath when he enacted the Ritual of Desecration.

The Oath of Peace was part of a renewal and strengthening of the original Berekian oath... because first and foremost, the Lords and the Lore exist to serve the Earth. They do not want power for the sake of power, they want to heal and beatify the Land. That's the whole point: service.

Somewhere along the line, Kevin missed that point. He created the Wards in his despair and specifically because he knew he was going to deeply wound the Land. It is no surprise, then, that the Wards (constructed by a mind bent on destroying the Land) were difficult to decode by the Lords who wanted to heal and serve the Land.

Mhoram did not discover passion, he discovered desperation.

[Savor Dam]

Orlion, I agreed with most of your post, but I cannot endorse your final conclusion. While desperation is certainly an aspect of what Mhoram faced, it is not the whole story of what takes place.

While I do not have the quote at hand (even though I think it is featured in the signature of at least on prolific Watcher), I believe it is Mhoram who taught that we are not required to be absolute saviors, only to render service are purely and completely as we are able.

Yes, I am sure I completely mangled SRD's beautiful and precise wording...but the meaning hopefully peeks through.

[Orlion]

I thought that was direct from the GI... but I know what you are talking about, and can not find it among a quick look at Watcher's signatures...

Anyhow, a clarification: I should have said Mhoram's inner conflict was his discovery of the seductive nature of desperation. He saw himself ready to do what Kevin did and set aside all oaths for one final strike against the enemy. He found another side to it, and applied it. It was never, "Oh dear... I seem to be...passionate...this feeling will surely destroy the world!"

Particularly since the Lords, in particular, were passionate about serving the Land.

[peter]

Point taken Vraith and I refer you to my learned friend DrPaul's post below

edit;Gosh Dang - don't you just hate it when you do a post not realising there are twenty more on the 'next page' that you didn't realise were there!

The arras/tapestry called (IIRC) 'Lord Mhoram's Victory' illustrates this point. In the face of certain failure and overwhelming odds Mhoham did not despair. He found the 'eye at the storm's centre' where pure service became enough, and the discovery of that tranquil point within the maelstrom of battle allowed him to perform the stupendous acts of valour that were depicted in the above.

[wayfriend]

I have never heard of Berek taking an Oath which Kevin broke.

The Oath of Peace was all about preventing another Kevin. But there's no mention of it being related to an earlier oath.

Regarding service, the quote that I believe Savor Dam seeks is this one:

"Further, I tell you that there is no blame for us in the wisdom or folly, victory or defeat, of the way we have elected to defend the Land. We are not the Creators of the Earth. Its final end is not on our heads. We are creations, like the Land itself. We are accountable for nothing but the purity of our service. When we have given our best wisdom and our utterest strength to the defense of the Land, then no voice can raise accusation against us. Life or death, good or ill - victory or destruction - we are not required to solve these riddles. Let the Creator answer for the doom of his creation."

And Mhoram did not discover passion, nor desperation. Donaldson tells us quite clearly what Mhoram discovered: that passion should not guide your choices, but is absoluetly necessary for energizing your execution of that choice.

From this, Mhoram extracted the understanding that the Oath of Peace has been, well, misapplied. It is literally a prescription for behavior; but it has been taken as a proscription against passion. Yet passion is power, as Covenant so often demonstrates. [...] Mhoram learned to find his own version of "the eye of the paradox": the point where both passion and control can be affirmed. [...] a willingness or ability to make choices which are not ruled or controlled by passion (e.g. hate, anger, despair, or fear), and then to act on those choices with absolute passion.

(11/24/2004)

Mhoram discovered that passion is effective when used wisely.

[Vraith]

From this, Mhoram extracted the understanding that the Oath of Peace has been, well, misapplied. It is literally a prescription for behavior; but it has been taken as a proscription against passion. Yet passion is power, as Covenant so often demonstrates. [...] Mhoram learned to find his own version of "the eye of the paradox": the point where both passion and control can be affirmed. [...] a willingness or ability to make choices which are not ruled or controlled by passion (e.g. hate, anger, despair, or fear), and then to act on those choices with absolute passion.

(11/24/2004)

Mhoram discovered that passion is effective when used wisely.

Heh...emphasis mine. I rest my case.

[Aiden Victore]

Well gosh, I'm sorry that I had to step out for a while, but I'm happy to see that I sparked such an interesting discussion.

While I never truly believed the point I brought up in my original post (I do love playing the devil's advocate), I did find it an interesting avenue of thought to travel. We can never really 'know' what those original lords did after the Desecration (unless another book is published, perhaps?), but it's fun to think about how the Oath of Peace came to be and what the intentions behind it were.

It's all too easy for time to warp what the facts are - something that is quite visible in the second chronicles. I do think that the original 'new' lords would have had a better understanding of where Kevin was coming from, just based on oral tradition and survived texts.

[Holsety]

The issue I want to raise here is that in our "real world" societies we don't have the Oath of Peace but we do have something else that prevents people from taking out their grief on other people who have killed, raped or otherwise seriously harmed their loved ones. It's called the rule of law. Even if we leave aside arguments about issues such as the adequacy of sentences, the death penalty, etc., what is legally right is often not the same as what is morally fair, and court sentences and sanctions often fall short of what crime victims and those close to them feel should be done to the criminal. Also, the legal process doesn't allow e.g. the parents of rape survivors the catharsis of punching the rapist's lights out. Would we then say that the rule of law in our societies denies such people the right to feel what they feel, or makes it wrong for them to feel that? I wouldn't say that. I would say that there are other ways that people should be able to find healing for their hurt. Could the same be said about Trell and the Oath of Peace?

It's true that they're not allowed to beat the rapist, but I believe that in crimes with victims the victims sometimes have the ability to weigh in on sentencing.

It was the ecstacy of killing, the bloodlust that drove Foamfollwer to pursue the ur-viles after the burning of Soaring Woodhelven and for which he performed the camoora.

Definitely, but I don't think that Mhoram found that. And I think that Foamfollower was also trying to escape from his failure in defending the other giants; in that sense, there was some fear mixed in there (perhaps resolved when he faces the shade of one of the dead giant ravers).