Instances of Cooperation in TLD

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Over 100 pages through TLD I've become aware that there is an underlying theme of cooperation throughout. TC and Horrim Carabal in the Sarangrave - Linden, Stave, Jeremiah and malachite - what else is there that I missed in terms of cooperation?

This reminds me of AATE in which Linden threw the racecar to Jeremiah in a cooperative effort to build the structure. Of course Stave was involved in that one too, as I recall.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Oh lordy! Like mother like son, now Jeremiah hates himself! He's suddenly turned into a whiny Linden!

Why Donaldson? WHY????????

[Krilly]

I don't think he hates himself. Never got that vibe. He just feels ineffectual.

There is allot of cooperation though, especially towards the end. Aneles quote comes to mind.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I don't think he hates himself. Never got that vibe. He just feels ineffectual.

"At the same time, he hated what he felt. He hated himself for feeling it."

There is allot of cooperation though, especially towards the end. Aneles quote comes to mind.

Which quote is that?

I don't want to know about the end yet. I figure LF gets a taste of wild magic based on the theory that the Sheriff was blasted with a projectile weapon. I believe in the theory that events in the "real" world correlate with those in the Land's world.

In Runes, Donaldson described flames coming up through the floor of the Covenant farmhouse as "worms of flame."

[Krilly]

Something about how every being upon the earth is responsible.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Something about how every being upon the earth is responsible.

"The Pure One" is not one person but two.

[earthbrah]

Yep, cooperation is surely a theme throughout this whole book.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

"The Pure One" is not one person but two.

Huh, that's very interesting. I had never thought of it that way, but I believe you have something there. Neither Foamfollower nor Covenant ever accepted that title, so it must be both of them together...? Or Covenant with the lessons he learned from Foamfollower...? Would you expand on what you mean by this statement, Worm?

[Billy G.]

I don't think he hates himself. Never got that vibe. He just feels ineffectual.

There is allot of cooperation though, especially towards the end. Aneles quote comes to mind.

Overwhelmed with no experience to fall back on. When he figured out Wildwood's runes, then the wisdom flowed into and back out of him.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I'm at a point in the book where Covenant is berating himself for all his Despiser-like actions.

Do real people have consciences this bad? TC is literally a mental case.

[Savor Dam]

Worm, perhaps you are not a Real enough person to have a conscience that berates you that much, or perhaps you have not lived your life such that you have such manifest regrets...but, yes, some Real People have consciences that put them through similar contortions.

[cue Lennon's "How Do You Sleep..."]

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Worm, perhaps you are not a Real enough person to have a conscience that berates you that much, or perhaps you have not lived your life such that you have such manifest regrets...but, yes, some Real People have consciences that put them through similar contortions.

[cue Lennon's "How Do You Sleep..."]

Of course we all feel guilt. But Covenant's is a religious-like conscience in which he - basically - compares himself to Satan. He acts like an adult who had a super-religious parent as a child who always scared him with the dire threat of Hell.

[earthbrah]

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Of course we all feel guilt. But Covenant's is a religious-like conscience in which he - basically - compares himself to Satan. He acts like an adult who had a super-religious parent as a child who always scared him with the dire threat of Hell.

Perhaps he did have such parents. I'd bet not, but I just now realized that we never once learn anything about Covenant's parents throughout the entire Chronicles. Clearly they were never necessary for Donaldson's story, but it only now strikes me as strange that we know nothing about them.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Of course we all feel guilt. But Covenant's is a religious-like conscience in which he - basically - compares himself to Satan. He acts like an adult who had a super-religious parent as a child who always scared him with the dire threat of Hell.

Perhaps he did have such parents. I'd bet not, but I just now realized that we never once learn anything about Covenant's parents throughout the entire Chronicles. Clearly they were never necessary for Donaldson's story, but it only now strikes me as strange that we know nothing about them.

We know something about them - his father was a preacher and they lived in India when he was a child.

[earthbrah]

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

We know something about them - his father was a preacher and they lived in India when he was a child.

Nice.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

We know something about them - his father was a preacher and they lived in India when he was a child.

Nice.

I begin to wonder if SRD isn't something like this. The characters he creates are entirely subjective in their thinking. Observer:

"Covenant groaned aloud. Linden’s absence was his doing. He had pushed her toward a risk so extreme that merely hearing it described made his pulse falter in his veins. He had been pushing her ever since she had returned to the Land, even though every stricture of Law and Time had screamed against such intervention. If she failed, the fault would be his."

Compare that passage to this rewritten version:

"In fact, Linden's absence WAS his doing. He HAD pushed her toward a risk so extreme.. He HAD been pushing her... If she failed, the fault WOULD indeed be his."

Does TC confuse his own beliefs with objective fact?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

This emotionalism present in the book led up to a conversations between TC and Stave about their respective decision-making methods. Apparently, people in the "real" world make decisions with their emotions. I did not know that.

[earthbrah]

What part of the book did that conversation take place?

Emotions are definitely a way of knowing. I have taught this in a Theory of Knowledge class. They can also be impediments to knowledge, though... Humans are emotional beings, and TC and Linden are examples of that. Extreme examples, yes, but still.

I do agree that some of SRD's characters think mostly subjectively, TC being one of them. He's very intuitive. What objective facts do you think he is confusing with his beliefs?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

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#53 in Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Epic

[thewormoftheworld'send]

What part of the book did that conversation take place?

Emotions are definitely a way of knowing. I have taught this in a Theory of Knowledge class. They can also be impediments to knowledge, though... Humans are emotional beings, and TC and Linden are examples of that. Extreme examples, yes, but still.

I do agree that some of SRD's characters think mostly subjectively, TC being one of them. He's very intuitive. What objective facts do you think he is confusing with his beliefs?

What do you mean by "a way of knowing"?

What do you think of Ayn Rand's theory of knowledge?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

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