TLD First Impressions

[Iolanthe]

6. The possession of Jeremiah by moksha. Been there, done that, with Linden. Seemed repetitive.

I don't agree. The possession of Jeremiah was totally different to that of Linden's possession. Having been already possessed by Kasty he knew what to do. Jeremiah took advantage of him, used him, and gained knowledge. How to use the staff to its utmost, he gained an important insight into his mother and I think that was important too. He also learned the whereabouts of Kevin's wards. Then he simply "put him away", I can't think of any other way to describe it. He didn't expunge him like Linden did, not until later. That was a real turning point for Jeremiah and using what he learned he was able to contribute to Lord Foul's downfall.

As for the marriage, Covenant (I still can't think of him as "Thomas") was always extravagant. Seemingly being unable to say anything else, he just cut the crap and dove straight in, and it worked. The marriage was important because the vows they made gave them the ability to combine their separate powers via the rings. A combination of power that also led to their final success.

[call11back]

As for quick impressions, I have six..

1. Branl killing the raver was the most striking part of the book.

2. Miost of the rest of the book felt like it was walking from one Deus Ex Machina to another.

3. Jeremiah's recovery from his disassociation did not convince me.

4. The final challenges for Covenant, Linden, and Jeremiah worked quite well for the most part.

5. I quite disliked Linden's renunciation of violence. How could it work so well for her? Donaldson pretty much exploded this approach to despair back in Lord Foul's Bane.

6. Donaldson appears to write middles better than beginnings or endings. (although I found the last three chapters well worth the wait.}

[earthbrah]

Very much like how Infelice said that Desecration enabled the renewal of the Land and the Earth, I think that Jeremiah's fractured selves resultant from being possessed were what enabled him to put moksha away and regain control of himself. So yeah, I agree that his experience with being possessed by a raver was indeed different than Linden's experience.

The marriage...on some level, I knew it would happen. I experienced it as an organic moment in the story and between the characters. The event happened quickly (as so many did in this book), but I am okay with how it went down. I am also okay with the mechanism achieved by this device, namely how both Linden and Covenant became rightful wielders of wild magic through their union. That union or alloy was always what the ring was meant to symbolize or imply, at least in part, so I am perfectly fine with that event.

[iQuestor]

Just finished it. My thoughts:

1. It felt rushed, like someone said before, one Deus Ex Machina after another. Everything got wrapped up all tidy like, especially kastenassen, Longwrath, Infelice, all wrapped up in a couple pages.

2. Knew the wedding was coming, but felt very rushed and out of place. It was a device to explain the rightful gold wielding necessary. Covenant's right to give the ring to Linden he took off his Dead wife after he killer her is grey area, but maybe plausible.

3. Loved that Martiir became a Forestal and how the whole "Forestall's question" thread of how the Earth could survive without Forestals was done well; even the tie in with the souls trapped by SHMNBN ended up Guardians.

4. I guess I approve of the Haruchai changing alot, wielding weapons, getting all touchy feely, participating in the last battle. Creating a council of Haruchai and Giants would seem to make sense.

5. I am MYSELF is lame. Giant Fist punch from above to Fell LF was lame. TC and LF becoming one as they did was lame.

6. Roger should be renamed He Who Must Remain One Dimensional; his appearance was lame as was his stabby thing with the Krill. No conflict just pure one dimensional. Lame.

7. Jeremiah's possession was done well in my opinion and wasnt same as Lindens in WGW. We knew it would happen.

8. Linden's whole whiney "I cant fight anymore" was ridiculous, pointless, and confimed my lifetime membership to THOOLAH.

9. LF is still unresolved and this is the part I dislike more than anything. Like DlbPharMD said, I was hoping SRD would be able to come up with a good satisfying way to end it, but he didnt. TC later said he "Still had Foul" inside him, a separate entity. that's not a resolution to anything. Only if they truly merged, and Foul was either diluted or made somehow content in his fate would it had made sense.

10. No explanation as to how the Earth was re-created. None. really?

11. At least we know Cov, the Mrs, and Jeremiah are stuck, can't go back. At least that much is believable.

There is more. Overall, My opinion: Meh.

[yesman772003]

I guess SRD meant it more literally than I anticipated when he called the bane She Who Must Not Be Named since even he was unwilling to name her.

[Damelon]

Finished it this morning.

I liked most of it. Kastenessen was handled well, a high point in fact. The changing nature of the haurchai was well done. The alliance with the lurker. I liked Jeremiah.


But, what happened at the end with the arch and the worm? It feels like there were about three pages of description edited out. I read it over several times to see if I missed something. All I get is that TC, Linden and Jeremiah fixed the arch, somehow.

Then there was what Infelice told them. The elohim put the worm to sleep and restored The One Tree. Ok. What changed that allowed the elohim to put the worm to sleep? It was eating them up till then. If they could put it to sleep, why didn't they do it before. Puzzling.

Does what TC did to Foul mean that he will have to be eventually carved up, like Clyme, by the krill to permanently rid the earth of Foul?

[TheFallen]

I thought it was time to weigh in with my impressions - I've by now actually gone back and re-read the last 100 pages or so to try to ensure that my opinions are fair and that I hadn't missed anything.

In an effort not to appear curmudgeonly, let's start with the positives:

#1. The haruchai as a whole held my interest throughout. Their error of judgement in making themselves the Masters of the Land was very skilfully juxtaposed with their changing philosophy as personified by the character of Stave - just a brilliant character and as someone else has already said, the greatest of the haruchai - and more latterly Branl as well. Branl's and Clyme's slaying of the Raver turiya was one of the high spots of TLD in terms of narrative power - and yes, it was great to see Brinn again.

#2. Mahrtiir becoming a forestal and thus both providing an answer to Caerroil Wildwood's long-unanswered question and fulfilling the latter's Staff of Law-borne runic plea for restitution was well thought out and satisfying.

Re the above two points, Stave and Mahrtiir are by far the best of the supporting characters within the Last Chrons. I found myself actively empathising with and caring about the both of them.

#3. I also thought that the whole sequence involving Jeremiah's constructing of the malachite sanctuary for the elohim, made possible by the heroic efforts of both the swordmainnir and Stave was excellent. I had no problem with Kastenessen appearing just after the construct had been completed - to me that made entire sense, both from a motivational and a narrative viewpoint.

#4. Great end for the remnants of the ur-viles and waynhim. Again unexpected and entirely satisfying.

#5. Even Linden - and here's a shocking admission - stopped annoying me, once she finally decided to get off her grass-stained ass and actually do something, namely confront her biggest fear (SHE) and in so doing, provide a redemption for Elena, who she'd previously thought she'd heartlessly damned for all eternity.

However, like many earlier posters, overall I shared a feeling of mild disappointment, a "you're kidding... is that really it?" type of response. Here's is my own list of less than satisfying issues - on to the negatives:-

A. I thought that a number of loose ends were tied up in a rushed way - Longwrath being a prime example of this. Okay none of the giants in the Last Chrons make it much past cardboard cut-outs in terms of characterisation - and SRD even had to rush some more giantish extras out of the blue onto stage as cannon-fodder to provide a higher bodycount during the ascent up Mount Thunder. I expected Longwrath to have a slightly more pivotal role than one where he pops up out of the undergrowth like a jack-in-the-box, chops off Kastenessen's human hand and then instantly gets blasted to death - all over in a hundred words or so. His sole narrative purpose seemed to be to provide Branl with Kasreyn's Sandgorgon-slaying flamberge.

B. Speaking of way too hastily tied-up loose ends, the battle with the Sandgorgons and the skurj also seemed exactly that - all that apparently needed to happen was for the Sandgorgons and the skurj to swap places on the battlefield (like NFL teams at half-time) and hey presto, before you know it, all of a sudden the Firelions get summoned to immolate the former and the Lurker floods the place to drown the latter. Hmph.

C. Narrative clangs. There were a few of these that pretty much instantly both shattered atmosphere and simultaneously my suspension of disbelief. Worst of all was TC's bizarre transit across the Sarangrave, being swung along like some helpless Tarzan via the tentacles of the Lurker in a surreal amalgam of "pass the parcel" and soccer "keepie-uppie". Speaking of "pass the parcel", the giants' handing around of a blazing TC during their impromptu caamora wasn't much better.

D. The wedding. Okay, TC's always been abrupt, so maybe it was in character, but it felt like a simple device to make Linden a rightful white gold wielder. What's more, for all that TC states that he must have earned the right to pass his by now ex-wife's ring on, it doesn't really hang together - the ring was Joan's and you can hardly maintain that she passed it on willingly... she got stabbed to death fercrissakes. And while I'm on about the flowery bowery honeymoon episode, I really couldn't help thinking that, what with the return of TC's leprosy, the wedding night was physically at least going to be a bit of a damp squib...

E. SHE. The "I AM MYSELF!" (non-)reveal came across as a clunkingly anti-climactic and pretty much total cop-out. Very weak - we could have done with some more exposition on who SHE might actually be. I'm sure SRD would hide behind the excuse of allegory, but honestly, there's nebulous and there's overly nebulous. As I've stated elsewhere, although SRD kind of painted himself into a corner on this one, to me SHE is Diassomer Mininderain, the Creator's "wife" for want of a better word, the cosmic embodiment of the feminine, of love and nurturing, corrupted at Creation's start by the machinations of LF and thus becoming trapped under the Arch of Time and evolving by extension into the anguished bane of all scorned or wronged women. This is why Linden, herself finally also a representation of the strength of nurturing and love in her combination of selfless motherhood of Jeremiah and physician's instinct to care and heal, is able to free HER.

F. SHE's bitchslap of Lord Foul. That one felt like a (quite literal) deus ex machina (or dea ex profundis to be more exact). Weak again - bizarrely a bit like an episode of Cheaters. Diassomer got to give LF her payback.

G. TC's acceptance of Lod Foul. Okay, SRD telegraphed this one a long time ago - a couple of weeks back, I found an interview with him before ROTE was even released where he talked about this being the natural conclusion: in TPTP, TC fought Lord Foul, whereas in WGW he surrendered to Lord Foul, letting himself be killed... so in TLD, an acceptance and absorbtion of Lord Foul was the logical finale, according to SRD (annoyingly I can no longer find that interview - oh well). Anyhow, this also felt rushed and underwritten.

H. My biggest issue... the repairing/remaking of the Earth... HOW? I felt really cheated by this. SRD had already shown himself more than capable of evocatively describing the fracturing of Time, both when depicting Joan's madness and the various travels through caesures... so why couldn't he have at least given us five hundred words or so on this? Okay, so I imagine Jeremiah using his innate talent for construction and instinctive knowledge of where things rightfully fit together to piece back all the inchoate and disparate instants, while TC uses his wild magic to solder together the breaking Arch of Time, aided by Linden's own white gold power, tempered by her physician's understanding of restraint. But geez - couldn't we have had a few paragraphs on this??? One second the dynamic trio are "lifted by fire" and "rise like glory". Period. New chapter and it's all done and dusted - and we're into the fluffy pink clouds of Little Miss Lollipop land (more below). A huge and dissatisfied HMPH to this.

I. And while I'm whingeing, just how did Infelice and the elohim "guide the Worm's return to its proper slumber"? Isn't the Worm just sleeping off a big meal? And where is the Worm? Dozing at Melenkurion Skyweir? Is that where the One Tree is now? And who is now the Guardian of the One Tree? Grrr...

J. The "and they all lived happily ever after" conclusion, with white silk (oh, sendaline... sorry Steve) robes and rainbows. Only missing a few cherubs, Carebears and My Little Ponies - all a bit too cutesey. At the end of both the 1st and 2nd Chrons, there was a real sense of grandeur within the dénouements, a seamless mix of satisfaction and sorrow, because losses we truly cared about had been suffered. Foamfollower died to save the world in TPTP and TC himself similarly in WGW. No such thing in TLD - yes, more characters than you could shake a stick at have died over the events of the Last Chrons, but since none of them were really clearly fleshed out enough for us to care about, I don't think the conclusion of the Last Chrons has anywhere near the same wringingly emotive power.

K. Loose ends. So TC's taken the Despiser into himself - I suppose he had to really, since he is the white gold, and therefore inevitably bound to being an impure alloy. But better than being dead, I imagine. But is TC now mortal? If so, what happens when he dies? Or are the dynamic threesome now immortal? Is Jeremiah fated to be an eternal teenager, endlessly complaining as his adoptive parents play kissy-face? And hold on.... there's still at least one Raver, moksha, out there on the loose. And hey, what is with that Insequent at the end? The Acolyte? That title would seem to suggest that the Insequent have decided to learn from TC, Linden and Jeremiah. But then again, TC comments on the last page that a guide is needed and that the Insequent could well provide that, given the Theomach's help to Berek. But a guide for whom? TC, Linden and Jeremiah? The nascent new Lords' Council? Grrr.

Okay, enough ranting. I freely admit that I'm holding SRD and the Last Chronicles up against very high standards, compared to all other literature within the genre out there. But then again, these are standards that the author himself set with his earlier works ands I oh so wanted him to match them. It's just that I don't think he quite managed to...

[amonereb]

So I agree/disgree with many posts here so I'll try not to repeat. Here my impressions in no particular order:

1. Roger's demise was disappointing (and slightly comical in description) In fact I had to re-read that part to make sure my memory wasn't playing tricks. Covenant's non-reaction to the loss of his son equally disappointing... "Roger---"

2. Slight tear at the wedding proposal, but the awkward Prima Notte scenes and morning after the night before bits were meh - perverse hope/fear that SRD would describe the love scene. Damn glad I didn't have the hear LA asking TC, "is it in yet?" and TC saying "I can't feel it!"

3. Jerry - Loved the kid, wished for more detail on his inner transformation. I'd hoped he would be an antithesis to LA but "Hormonal Teenager" was thrown in like uncontrolled wild magic which left me with too much of a feeling his plotline would just be about coming of age.

4. Battle Scenes - "Dear SRD, please make long and epic battle scenes that even the most dumbest of movie goes will understand. Then we'll make a movie. Yours, Disney" Repetitive, agonizingly weak get outs and Deus Ex Machina

5. Stave - Thought he was great, but prefer Branl. Stave should have died at the end. Now there's just gonna be a lot of unquenched desire between him and Lindon - All to be revealed in Desparate Clave Wives

6. Lurker - excellent and surprising.

7. Ranhyn - Who WAS telling them all this stuff only they could know? How could they know the lurkers intent or any of the other things they supposedly knew. Taking the riders to water or aliantha I get, but that's all.

8. Tarzan of the tentacles and teleportation via krill smelt too strongly of plot hasteners

9. SHE - No Name and Punch - This is so ludicrous it has to be SRD's little joke. In fact, I think SRD hated writting about LA so much he originally created SHE to chew on LA for all eternity. Stave and TC marrying would have been appropriate for our modern times but possibly too shocking for most readers so he had to find another way I guess.

10. Apart from all that I really am very happy it's over and that I have conclusions to most things. As a work from start to finish a most amazing world and story. Thanks SRD!

[dlbpharmd]

If they could put it to sleep, why didn't they do it before. Puzzling.

Excellent question!

[earthbrah]

Maybe the Worm has become more quiescent now that It has devoured so many stars and drank the Blood of the Earth. Perhaps doing all that put It back on the downswing which made It more manageable thus allowing the Elohim to sing It back to sleep.

I really don't know, the text doesn't give enough clues to make a convincing inference, so that's just speculation.

[call11back]

4. Battle Scenes - "Dear SRD, please make long and epic battle scenes that even the most dumbest of movie goes will understand. Then we'll make a movie. Yours, Disney" Repetitive, agonizingly weak get outs and Deus Ex Machina

Gotta give SRD credit here. The Last Chronicles have his best battle scenes EVER! They have the BEST battle scenes I have read.

Unfortunately they are in FR and AATE.

[Damelon]

We finally discover (or Jeremiah does) where the 3rd thru the 6th Wards are.

I liked that too, though since I spotted it on reread it wasn't a first impression.

[TM5000]

I first read Lord Foul's Bane in 1985 (I think) as a senior in high school and have continued to read and reread SRD's books, including the Gap series through the years.

However, there are WAY too many convenient coincidences in TLD- too many unanswered questions- too many times I felt that I have read this before.

It felt like a rehashing of every other book in the series.

More wild magic, more Earthpower, more Lore, more whining, more epic battles, then more soul searching, then more epic battles, then feelings of self loathing and inadequacy.

Stephen Donaldson is still my favorite author, but this last book of the series leaves me wanting a last book in the series.

[largo]

Then there was what Infelice told them. The elohim put the worm to sleep and restored The One Tree. Ok. What changed that allowed the elohim to put the worm to sleep? It was eating them up till then. If they could put it to sleep, why didn't they do it before. Puzzling.

I was puzzled at first by this too, but given the amount of time that has elapsed by the epilogue, it would appear that the Worm has eaten its fill. It wreaked the havoc and destruction it should have, destroyed the world, and Covenant/Linden/Jeremiah reconstructed the world in its wake as best they were able. By that time, the Worm was ready for slumber, and the Elohim were finally released to shepherd it back to its cave. That's my take, in any case, and a fantastic ending.

As I mentioned in my review, I really loved TLD. The only complaints I agree about involve the Mount Thunder showdown. We knew Covenant would become Lord Foul, and it's conceptually brilliant. But I can't help but wonder if a gradual evolution would have paid the narrative off better. What if Covenant, in Fatal Revenant, had been Covenant/Foul instead of Roger? Of course, that would have taken the story in an entirely different direction... but part of me (just part of me) wish it had happened that way.

I agree without reservation that the resolution of the She-Bane was confusing, and the essence of her namelessness has been rubbish from the start. (Aside from that, she's a terrific nasty piece of work.)

[slickthomas]

G. TC's acceptance of Lod Foul. Okay, SRD telegraphed this one a long time ago - a couple of weeks back, I found an interview with him before ROTE was even released where he talked about this being the natural conclusion: in TPTP, TC fought Lord Foul, whereas in WGW he surrendered to Lord Foul, letting himself be killed... so in TLD, an acceptance and absorbtion of Lord Foul was the logical finale, according to SRD (annoyingly I can no longer find that interview - oh well). Anyhow, this also felt rushed and underwritten.

I think this is the interview: www.stephenrdonaldson.com/fromtheauthor ... hp?Page=32

See the question "I've got twenty dollars... "

[TheFallen]

Thank you, Slickthomas - great find, although I've since found the interview that I remembered. It was from W.A. Senior's lengthy published critique "Stephen R. Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant: Variations on the Fantasy Tradition", which after two hundred or so pages of analysis features two separate interviews with SRD.

The quote I remember goes much along the same lines as yours, although it's from a period when SRD hadn't even decided to begin a third chronicles (1991). Both quotes have got me seriously thinking and so I'm actually going to start a separate topic on this

We finally discover (or Jeremiah does) where the 3rd thru the 6th Wards are.

I liked that too, though since I spotted it on reread it wasn't a first impression.

Well to be strictly accurate, the three additional Wards mentioned - the jewelled casket in the Great Swamp, the tapestry in the cavern in the Northron mountains and the periapt that's as full of knowledge as a book - are Wards numbers 4, 5 and 6 (in no particular order).

From memory, the Giants were entrusted with the 1st Ward and bore it to the Land after the Ritual of Desecration, the 2nd Ward was discovered in Revelstone after Covenant awakened the krill and we're told in the Second Chrons that the 3rd Ward had been found after the events in TPTP. I seem to remember that the na-Mhoram had locked the first three Wards away in the Aumbrie of the Clave, which we discover in TWL when Vain breaks in to retrieve the heels of the original Staff of Law.

And as for the 7th Ward? Well, we'll all remember that, won't we?

[Savor Dam]

From memory, the Giants were entrusted with the 1st Ward and bore it to the Land after the Ritual of Desecration, the 2nd Ward was discovered in Revelstone after Covenant awakened the krill and we're told in the Second Chrons that the 3rd Ward had been found after the events in TPTP. I seem to remember that the na-Mhoram had locked the first three Wards away in the Aumbrie of the Clave, which we discover in TWL when Vain breaks in to retrieve the heels of the original Staff of Law.

And as for the 7th Ward? Well, we'll all remember that, won't we?

One small quibble. The Second Ward was discovered in the catacombs of Mt. Thunder by the Quest for the Staff of Law during the events of LFB.

[I'm Murrin]

3. My membership and loyalty to THOOLAH has been reaffirmed. With Giants and Haruchai dying all around her, LA refused to fight. What a crock.

Thomas Covenant refused to fight in the First Chronicles, and for much worse reasons.

3. The SHE Right Hook To Foul. Felt almost haphazardly thrown in. SHE can stop long enough to slap but not long enough for even a word or two?

She was right in the one brief window of opportunity to escape the Arch of Time after having been imprisoned and desperate since the world's creation. Would you stop to say something to a bunch of people who mean pretty much nothing to you if you were in her situation? Wasn't preventing Foul's escape and strengthening Jeremiah's wards enough thanks?

7. The marriage proposal. Felt forced and not in context. I would have thought TC to have been more subdued in that moment than he was.

I thought that moment worked pretty well as the ending to that section. Considering that the novel was essentially structured as two books, not one, it needed some big moment to cap that part.

Also: Ignore the exchanging of the rings. As we have been told time and time again, Thomas Covenant is the wild magic. What mattered was the ceremony and him giving the white gold to her. The physical ring itself doesn't matter. It's symbolic.

Then there was what Infelice told them. The elohim put the worm to sleep and restored The One Tree. Ok. What changed that allowed the elohim to put the worm to sleep? It was eating them up till then. If they could put it to sleep, why didn't they do it before. Puzzling.

The Worm was likely sated, having consumed the greatest Earthpower of creation and gained enough power to fracture the Arch, it would naturally have fallen back to sleep after the Arch was repaired, just as it did when full with all of the Elohim in the creation myth.

Edit: I see getting further into reading this thread that this has already been suggested.


On Haruchai using weapons: I accepted them using the Krill, and Longwrath's convenient but poorly utilised plot device-I mean sword. But the Masters turning up and immediately picking up Cavewight swords and spears to fight with, without hesitation, just felt very wrong.


One last small observation of my own: While it would hve deprived them of the opportunity to learn things that enabled their final victory, how many lives could have been saved if Covenant had just translated a small group of them directly into Kiril Threndor instead of climbing through the mountain?

That is something Foul might not have expected.

[caamora]

My general impression was that, although I love the way SRD writes, I got really sick and tired of listening to all the whining by the main characters. TC, LA and Jeremiah - all of them were, 'I'm useless,' 'I've done so much wrong,' 'I don't know how to use my power.'

I'm sorry but I just got tired of all the angst.

BUT...

Stave is the best (and I agree that he is in love with Linden).

Martir is also the bomb.

I wasn't that impressed with the giants in the last chrons.

[Orlion]

Reminder - no need for spoiler tags in this forum.

I agree about TC/LA marriage. Just because they're married now should NOT make LA a "rightful wielder" of wild magic.

Shenanigans! I call shenanigans! You espoused this exact theory to Donaldson during the World Fantasy Convention of 2010 after the release of Against All Things Ending! I was there! Aliantha was there! Shenanigans!!!!