I liked being in the Land again, but wish the story....

[TheFallen]

Ten bucks says that vraith buys into (or at least considers) my Jungian interpretation that revolves around Jung's insistence upon the importance of "individuation". Either that, or v will come up with a ground-breaking take on things, seamlessly combining primitivism, post-modernism, theism and existentialism, that none of us will have thought of

In interviews long prior to publication, SRD was twice very explicit about the importance of understanding his psycho-philosophical stance in order to unravel the coming culmination, so I'm with you up to there, u.

However, I don't see the Last Chrons as some sort of self-help catharsis on his part. I'm more on the lines of SRD becoming a more blatant allegorist to expound his personal Weltanschauung - no harm there, except I think he does so at the direct expense of reader satisfaction in the narrative line that clothes his message.

This is honestly why I think he isn't worried about apparently carelessly tying off multiple narrative threads all at once (Longwrath, anyone? The skurj and the Sandgorgons all getting wiped out in the space of a page, anyone?) , or using clunking dei ex machinae such as SWMNBN and TC's sudden teleportation capacity, or rushing the ending ("To infinity and beyond!" as the dynamic trio hurtle upwards, "rising like glory". Curtain. And hey presto! Suddenly we're in cutesey CareBear Land and everyone's fine ). None of that seems of any real importance to SRD, provided that his allegorical lesson is conveyed across. In this, he got the balance irritatingly and disappointingly wrong.

Either that or, as someone claimed elsewhere, an over-zealous editor chopped out 100 pages or so. If that's true, may that editor be given multiple tabasco and iron filing enemas.

[peter]

I don't think SRD's integrity has ever been in doubt u. No writer is ever going to deliberately perform at less than his best.......no thats a bad way of putting it......perfunctorily knock out a series of the scope of the scope and range of the 3rd Chrons. The demands of creativity and imaginative drive would not allow for it - but SRD would be by no means the first author who has tried to match earlier achievements and has failed. And as we are repeatedly told in TLD to give of your all and fail is no shame. It may be that there are depths and insights in the third Chrons that have escaped me [hell - if I've learned nothing else from the Watch and my talks re the first two series it is how much I have missed], but if so, I suspect they will ever remain hidden from me. One thing about which I am glad - the time gap between the end of the second series and the release of the third has for me at least, allowed a 'compartmentalisation' such that I can view the first two series in isolation with no problem.

re Donalsons remark of 'If you don't like the books don't but them'; well this can be taken two ways - and would it were that simple anyway. If SRD believes it to be so then he sorely misjudges the effect his earlier books had on it's readership. I have used the wisdom and insights I garnered from the first two series on multiple occasions in my life to help me make decisions or moderate my behavior; the Haruchai value of untainted service is the one I apply to my working life every day. So if Donaldson means 'If you truley are not enjoying the third Chrons then it is ridiculous to keep buying the books let alone read them' then ok [not correct - see above, but ok]. If he means 'If you don't like them - too bad; stop buying them and see if I care' then not good. Very not good at all.

[edit - just read the above post. Will someone - anyone - please just take a few lines to explain this 'psychological/philosophical' worldview of SRD's that we have to understand in order to get the 3rd Chrons to me. And also the allegory they were trying to convey if it isn't the same thing. This would really help. Really. And I'm clearly not going to get it on my own or I would have done by now!]

[TheFallen]

Pete.. check the link in my post above. It details the two relevant interview quotes by SRD, plus then bangs on about Jung. Now for the record, I don't particularly buy into Jung's various theories. All that's a bit too "accidentally disappearing up one's own backside while overly contemplating the depths of one's own navel" for me.

I'm not saying such a take on the Last Chrons by any means definitively reveals SRD's intent, but it's definitely tenable, given that he's apparently so keen on us getting the "psychological paradigm".

[peter]

That is a seriously good link TheFallen, and the Senior interview has to be a must for any Donaldson fan worth his salt. How have I missed this to date? Is the complete text of the Senior book available in the link from your 'Jungian Thread' [ie as laid out in the 'contents page] I noticed that it said something about it being a 'sample' or something as I scanned it.

[TheFallen]

I think it's a Google book link, so most of the text isn't there, but the full text of the interview is, I think.

[ussusimiel]

...So if Donaldson means 'If you truley are not enjoying the third Chrons then it is ridiculous to keep buying the books let alone read them' then ok [not correct - see above, but ok]. If he means 'If you don't like them - too bad; stop buying them and see if I care' then not good. Very not good at all...

From anything I have heard or read by SRD in interviews it is the former that he means. SRD cares for his readers and to that end he gives utterly of himself when he writes. After that if readers do not enjoy his work then he feels that, as you put it, it is ridiculous for them to continue reading. What would you do with a new author whose work you didn't enjoy? You wouldn't buy the next book, would you? While it is understandable that we might persist with an author of SRD's proven quality, does that mean that we can then justifiably criticise books that, under normal circumstances, we would not normally read? (Of course we can unjustifiably criticise the books; that's what I've been doing for years )

Ten bucks says that vraith buys into (or at least considers) my Jungian interpretation that revolves around Jung's insistence upon the importance of "individuation".

• - Wait until you see my post-feminist Freudian take on this!

If someone goes an Adler we'll have a set

u.

P.S. I'm enjoying this thread so much that I've put it in the Spotlight thread for the 2013 Watchies.

[Joe the Lion]

This is honestly why I think he isn't worried about apparently carelessly tying off multiple narrative threads all at once (Longwrath, anyone? The skurj and the Sandgorgons all getting wiped out in the space of a page, anyone?) , or using clunking dei ex machinae such as SWMNBN and TC's sudden teleportation capacity, or rushing the ending ("To infinity and beyond!" as the dynamic trio hurtle upwards, "rising like glory". Curtain. And hey presto! Suddenly we're in cutesey CareBear Land and everyone's fine ). None of that seems of any real importance to SRD, provided that his allegorical lesson is conveyed across. In this, he got the balance irritatingly and disappointingly wrong.

Either that or, as someone claimed elsewhere, an over-zealous editor chopped out 100 pages or so. If that's true, may that editor be given multiple tabasco and iron filing enemas.

To an extent he's used an existing popular vehicle to put his current art across. If it wasn't about money why not just write a series about Doctor Linden Avery set in the real world. Bit dishonest, and he definitely took his eye off the ball regarding story telling dynamics and resolution. When Covenant took the Despiser inside himself I had a flash back to an old episode of Star Trek, and took in the 'we've all got our inner Despiser message' without puking 'cos i thought, yeah, the Despiser was really just Covenant's other half all along - then it turns out, no, he just took the Despiser inside himself. Oh.

Anyway, the lands real, when I was convinced it was just a creation of the 'beings of space and time' or whatever Donaldson calls them. My main reason was not being able to recall any description, conversation or event that didn't involve, wasn't witnessed by or within earshot of Linden, Covenant, Jeremiah - you know, someone from the real world. Maybe there were but I missed them - something like an unwitnessed private conversation between The Harrow and The Mahdoubt - anything along those lines would suffice to put my mind at rest (I'm not ready for a full series re-read for a while)

I'll reread TLD shortly because I enjoyed AATE considerably more the second time around. Things can only get better.

[lurch]

I am seeing this claim of dues ex machina being tossed around a bit much in comments on TLD..

Yes, the observation occurred to me in TLD. But with a little thought,,in every case, Donaldson had a previous fact to take any contrivance out of the example. Giant sailors brought the Swordmainnir to the Land..The Ramen were supposed to get the Haruchi off their duffs,,and the Magiks of the Krill were never parametered..they were always unknown for TC to explore..etc. The exploration of of the Magiks of the Krill by TC is a major thematic line. He even bluffs Kast with it and admits to trying to do so again later. There is a whole creating from your discoveries metaphor going on there.

But on a 2nd level..these fail as deus ex machina because ..the contrived die..they get slaughtered, blasted, hacked, speared etc etc..Heck of way to treat a " deus"..So, as close as the examples come to being " deus ex machina" is as Humor Noir,,or Black Humor..

Even the example of SWMNBN showing up to thump Foul..i'm sorry,,its difficult to call it a contrivance when you can see it coming a mile away..I fully expected a payback to be dealt to Foul..No deus ex machina,,just a completion of a mobius strip. ..Actually the author pulls a prank or two,,or sets up some Black Surreal Humor..with this contrivance business.. In FR,,Mishio Massima.. the Insequent Ardent offers TC his horse,,in some what mystery..alls we get is the horses name..nothing else..Mishio Massima..!!..This mysterious " contrivance" developed out of no where,,never became any more than..a ugly horse that hauled TC around and ate grass..Thats all folks...and another example..is the deus es machina of the Giant Sailors.. big clue was,,the author didn't bother to name them all..so much for the " deus" there.

Take a step back. All the deus ex machina actually fail as deus ex machina. And I will go even so far as to suggest..the author sets them and US up for the joke..or the dark humor of..pretense. We think they are deus ex machina,,but they die and get slaughtered..we think they have great import but they just eat grass..serve to catch a spear with their chest.. He played us the same way with the original appearance of the fake TC and Jeremiah. Its really the author relating to us the Dark Humor of Pretense..Its Illusion that we cast on our selves..Its the Pretense of Moksha possessing Jerry. And we saw what happened with that.It got totally turned on its head....Thats Black Humor.

[Seppi2112]

Whenever SRD has spoken about "the purpose of fantasy," he talks about how fantasy is the externalization of internal conflict: making the things we can't confront about ourself real so that we have to confront them. It's about the intangible things that matter, transformed into living forms.

I won't belabor the ways in which the 1st and 2nd Chronicles achieved this goal (not only in setting but in characterization), but it should be plainly stated that he never even approached realizing this aim with the Final Chronicles. Instead of resonant events - the sacrifices of Brinn, Hamako, and Hile Troy presaging Covenant's own sacrifice, for example - we get hundreds of pages of meandering purposeless exposition. Instead of getting meaningful people and actions, we are TOLD how meaningful everything is. Repeatedly.

We get not one, or two, but literally dozens of pointless characters who are immediately forgettable, replacable, and in fact frequently replaced: see Giant Warriors nee Giant Sailors nee Haruchai Masters (aka final act cannon fodder).

He wasted hundreds of pages trying to convince us that Anele, Pahni, Marhtiir, Liand, etc were absolutely crucial to the fate of the Land only to either kill/banish them to Revelstone or magic-wand them into mattering. Linden goes back in time to make Mahrtiir into a FORESTAL?! Seriously?! Pahni's entire purpose in the story was to pout about Liand's death and learn how to lie to the Haruchai? What?!

What it all seems to come down to is his story got away from him. He stated himself in the GI that, whereas he used to plan out his novels meticulously in the past, he has since learned to relax that impulse as time went on... at the expense of having any intentional destination at the outset whatsoever (beyond the nebulous concept that TC would ultimately accept LF into himself... and then ask him to "calm down").

The Last Chronicles is a tale full of sound and fury signifying nothing. This would be bad enough in its own right, but such a glandular mess coming from the author of TPTP, WGW, The Killing Stroke, and countless other stories of the heart? Painful. Most painful reading experience I've ever had - because it didn't go anywhere, and until the very end I couldn't believe he would do that to me. Or to himself.

[peter]

Instead of getting meaningful people and actions, we are TOLD how meaningful everything is. Repeatedly..

Fine post Seppi2112.