the ending

[illender]

Doesnt it seem like Donaldson is way to detailed of a writer to give us an ending so lacking in details. I thought the tld was a great book but the ending in my own opinion was not up to parr with his previous writing. I finished this about a week ago but thought i'd reflect incase i was being to picky but it really feels like the final chapter was just a big rush so he could end it.

[Bill the Cat]

And no mention of the Creator, who honestly started it all...

[illender]

And no mention of the Creator, who honestly started it all...

exactly, i have been saying for years that we hear from him before or at the end. hopefully behind the scenes he at least gave covenant a high five

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

But if the Despiser and the Creator are mirrors of each other, and if Covenant contains the Despiser now, doesn't he contain the Creator? Isn't he the Recreator, even?

[lurch]

at some level,,yes, The Last Chrons is a story of Creation...I think the author gave a good clue with the " mobius strip" comment in there somewhere.

.There is the idea that ,,,who you are,,is what you create. We are all poets..or ,,gifted in some way. By what and how we explore and discover and create from, we become who we are..Our talents define us..Like the author says a few times,,Its not our failures that define us but our successes , what we create, what we do, that defines us. ...So the Creator is You,,Me..any..Each of Us is our own Creator.

btw...I give the epilogue ending 1.7 out of 2 boxes of Kleenex Tissues. He did the unexpected..and gave us a,," Lost " ending...or rather,,a High Humanity,,Spiritual ending...a Surreal ending.

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

*High fives lurch* It's so nice to see someone who also liked LOST seeing the parallelism in this case.

[lurch]

Mig..yea..the thing is..what Lost and T C o T C have in common is that both are expressions done in Surrealism. So there is much sharing or parallelism , yet, each is distinct and unique in their use of Surreal techniques ,,or " dogma".

Donaldson struck the " Unity" chord with Thomas and Linden getting married and then capped it off with Jerry seeing the horrible experiences of Linden and thus gaining compassion . He dropped the pretense and joined the adults..Unity..which is the goal of Surrealism,,to make a Human Being " Whole" rather than divided and conflicted.

Its amazing,,with just a few steps back,,one can see the similarities between Lost and TCoTC..not because either copied the other,,but because they use the same paints in their picture making. I respect both for the unique use and expressions made with the basics of Surrealism.

[peter]

And did not 'Lost' also implode at the end?

[Sorry Lurch - no offense intended ]

[SkurjMaster]

Lost was a miserable fail! Sorry.

The Last Dark was... disappointing. Sorry SRD. You are a much better writer than this. Not sure where to begin:

Jeremiah was underdeveloped.
Linden was not in touch with her staff as she should have been.
Covenant should have appeared in RoTE!
I like the Insequent better than anything else (the Harrow was wasted as a character; he should have lived).
I missed the Creator.
SWMNBN was a FAIL!
More ur-viles and Waynhim, please. Too late now.
I hated the notion of the WoTWE even way back in the Second Chrons (the Worm should have remained a metaphor)
Forbidding was necessary? How did it even really help????
The ending SUUUUUUUUCKED! I would have felt better if TC had awakened at the hospital after his confrontation with the car in the first book of the first Chrons. Or if he had simply been killed off along with Linden and Jeremiah.

I can't go on.
Nonetheless, when SRD writes his next fantasy series, I will be there.

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

I think LOST and TCOTC are good examples of mimetics inasmuch as the creators of both were inspired overwhelmingly by the Narnia series. And for what it's worth, I loved the ending of LOST as well.

[lurch]

Well..a year before LOST ended I said that that they would be unified..come together.. They most certainly did with a heavy emphasis on " spirituality".. Seems to me TC, Linden and Jeremiah where very much " unified" in intent and direction by end as well.

I'm not here to argue. Its either you get it or you don't. Kinda like Avery and her,," i'm done with fighting"..What I offer is that,,an offer. You don't have to take it. But I do know I am not the only one who sees the work of the author in TCoTC as I do. Actually, its less as I see it , and more of..how the author presents it.

I only offer to give myself as well as any other fan of Donaldson, a deeper or wider or further appreciation of the work. There is no charge for it. It is free. Its value increases when its added too by others. I was involved with Lost in the same way. What I put forth concerning either or both, is meant to further the appreciation. If ya can't go with it,,for what ever reason,,do not expect me to expend energy in attempting to sway. I have already expended quite a bit of energy in researching . I see its up to you to do the same research so that your appreciation is genuinely expanded. Or as Donaldson puts it...real knowledge. I can't learn it for you..You have to learn it yourself. Its there if you choose to explore it. .

In basic Surrealism..the metaphor is the message. This was true in LOST and I believe it to be true in TCoTC. The metaphor of..a reality after death..was easily evident in LOST and rather obvious in TCoTC...I can only suggest, to let go of logic and reason,,with stories about circumstances that have no logic or reason to them..

[native]

A week's reflection on the ending suggests it cannot be taken at face value. It was at one level a happy ending, but at every other somewhat implausible. Elohim admitting their mistakes - come on.

It seems to me they put the world back together again but not as it was. Covenant became the creator with the Despiser at his side, just like before. And they reconstructed tthe world as they would like it, not as the decayed lawless broken thing they left behind. Their friends they saved, but most of the population died. What was left was an empty canvas they had only just begun to repaint, hence their premature departure from Andelain. As Covenant was reconstructed from Linden's memory, so was the Land being reconstructed from his and hers. That weird Insequent was something to do with it, but I can't quite figure out how. But it was a clue we're supposed to get.

None of this is to excuse the bad writing that became apparent in the last two chapters, though the whole chronicle had paved the way. I suspect Donaldson ended in a philosophical conclusion because he'd stopped caring about his characters as people a long time before. He was therefore acting out an metaphysical dynamic that he really hadn't signposted or sold to the reader intellectually or emotionally.

[Zarathustra]

I think we all "get it." There's no one here who doesn't understand that Covenant merged with his darker side, that he unified his opposites and became whole. I'm not sure how much surrealism adds to that realization, or why you'd have to know that surrealism also deals with this topic (as do many philosophies, allegories, mythologies), but it's great that we all have our own personal experiences and views to bring to the table. If it helps you relate to the books, and deepens the meaning, that's awesome. But to imply that the rest of us don't "get it" simply because we don't like the story would seem to be the genesis of an argument, not its end.

It's easy to believe in life after death in a place where people can magically resurrect themselves and their entire universe. For those of us who lack those benefits, who seek a meaning in this life and this world, a meaning that doesn't place the greatest value beyond the grave, this story says absolutely nothing to us. The Worm is still very much alive and feeding in this world. In Donaldson's world, it's merely a nuisance to be ignored and then completely undermined by rainbows and recreation.

Marriage and merging and unions and resolving our conflicted nature is all great ... but what does that have to do with life after death? What does that have to do with magically rendering death a nonissue?

[Condign]

I don't think any further reading is necessary (for me, at any rate) to 'get' the ending.

The fantasy novel format that Donaldson is writing in, at the end of the day, is entertainment.

I feel cheated by the ending. There are no consequences for what came before. I can deal with this in books, in movies, in games, but I find it hard to deal with in a Donaldson book because it goes against his modus operandi up until now.

I've re-read the last couple of chapters and the Epilogue three or four times now, trying to extract further enjoyment, or analysis, or insight. I failed miserably.

[lurch]

thats the point..like LOST..its a mobius strip ending,,or..its not an ending at all,,its a BEGINNING..the author is done with it and now its up to the reader or in LOST's case, the viewer,,to run with it and do their thing with it..You..Me..All of Us ..are Creators...find your special Jeremiah Talent and create! Be the Acolyte!

[peter]

I suspect Donaldson ended in a philosophical conclusion because he'd stopped caring about his characters as people a long time before. He was therefore acting out an metaphysical dynamic that he really hadn't signposted or sold to the reader intellectually or emotionally.

This comment resonates well with me. I was somewhat stuggling to understand my own having gone beyond careing about the charachters [How could that happen after my journey with them in Chrons 1 and 2], but I recognise now that it could well have been my own reaction to them actually mirroring SRD's himself. The clues to this were all there and became palpably manifest in TLD. I have no interest in SRD's philosophy - I never did.

[dlbpharmd]

I don't agree. Whatever his reasons for writing the ending as he did, I believe SRD deeply loves his characters, especially Linden Avery.

[Zarathustra]

Honestly, I think he ran out of time. (Heh, that would be ironic.) It feels rushed. Every artist is self-critical. I think he'd be able to spot many of the same flaws we see, but time constraints and a contract are a bitch.

I think his overall plan for the LD and the LC in general was okay; it could have been a fine story. I just think he got overwhelmed and tried to fit in too much for the time allotted to him. If he had built up the character resolutions so that there was a slow burn, so that you had a sense of "seeing it coming," as we did in the 2nd Chrons, then the story he told would have been just fine ... except for one big flaw: the epilogue. I don't think there's anyway to make that ending work with the rest of the story.

Maybe telling stories with dead protagonists is the problem.

In general, I like the theme of rebirth. The cycle of birth/life/death/rebirth is the one form of "immortality" that nature has discovered in its blind march through time. But that happens without magic rings and self-improving epiphanies. I wish that it wasn't the characters themselves who rebuilt the world. We didn't invent rebirth, nor do we make it happen (except in ourselves, and in our mating). The linkage between personal growth and universal redemption is one I'm having trouble crossing. If this ending had to happen, I wish it had been "... some wonder wrought to redeem us" instead of "now we have unlimited power because we went through a psychological catharsis or merging with one's dark side.

No, on second thought, I take that back. It would have defeated the point of the story if some external force or wonder had remade the world. Maybe this is better: the epiphany--or at least Covenant's--should have happened at the beginning or middle of this Last Chronicles. Instead of three people having the same epiphany at the same time, and then gaining the ability to perform miracles in the space of a few sentences, Covenant could have been more of a leader or teacher, illustrating to all (including us) the value of the lessons he'd learned. Put those lessons into action. Show us what a whole, integrated person looks like in the course of a story, not in the final paragraphs. SRD seemed to imply that TC had a plan, at least while he was in the Arch. So why did TC have to start from square 1 again? Why did he seem to just wing it if he's had millennia to learn from his mistakes (after two victories), as well as a plan for this moment?

Having TC merge with LF in the middle of the story would certainly have been "something we didnt' expect." Instead of the final showdown being at the end, we could have even been teased a little bit with the possibility that a merged Foul/TC might do something horrible (instead of Linden), so that we could be shown how merging with your dark side isn't instant rainbows and lollipops. Show an actual struggle that is the next stage after that integration. The integration certainly isn't the end. After that, you have to maintain it, and still decide to do the right thing as you contain your dark side--using it appropriately to strengthen your more rational and perhaps timid side. [Damn, I thought that was Lord Mhoram's Victory! Didn't we already do this?] And then TC could have helped Jeremiah and Linden do the same, instead of everyone spontaneously coming up with the same epiphany at the same time, just in the nick of time, to save the world.

That would have felt earned. Covenant as a teacher/leader ... a prophet showing others the way, instead of a broken man who makes jokes about how fun it is to have no clue what you're doing, and then stumbles into godhood.

[iQuestor]

Z said

No, on second thought, I take that back. It would have defeated the point of the story if some external force or wonder had remade the world. Maybe this is better: the epiphany--or at least Covenant's--should have happened at the beginning or middle of this Last Chronicles. Instead of three people having the same epiphany at the same time, and then gaining the ability to perform miracles in the space of a few sentences, Covenant could have been more of a leader or teacher, illustrating to all (including us) the value of the lessons he'd learned. Put those lessons into action. Show us what a whole, integrated person looks like in the course of a story, not in the final paragraphs. SRD seemed to imply that TC had a plan, at least while he was in the Arch. So why did TC have to start from square 1 again? Why did he seem to just wing it if he's had millennia to learn from his mistakes (after two victories), as well as a plan for this moment?

Having TC merge with LF in the middle of the story would certainly have been "something we didnt' expect." Instead of the final showdown being at the end, we could have even been teased a little bit with the possibility that a merged Foul/TC might do something horrible (instead of Linden), so that we could be shown how merging with your dark side isn't instant rainbows and lollipops. Show an actual struggle that is the next stage after that integration. The integration certainly isn't the end. After that, you have to maintain it, and still decide to do the right thing as you contain your dark side--using it appropriately to strengthen your more rational and perhaps timid side. [Damn, I thought that was Lord Mhoram's Victory! Didn't we already do this?] And then TC could have helped Jeremiah and Linden do the same, instead of everyone spontaneously coming up with the same epiphany at the same time, just in the nick of time, to save the world.

I really like that idea. No one would have expected that. and it would have opened up lots of new possibilities.

[native]

Honestly, I think he ran out of time. (Heh, that would be ironic.) It feels rushed. Every artist is self-critical. I think he'd be able to spot many of the same flaws we see, but time constraints and a contract are a bitch.

I would find that proposition more credible if the battles and climb in the last few chapters hadn't been drawn out so interminably and to such small purpose.