It's just a bloody book! Isn't it?

[Iolanthe]

Is there anyone else like me who just read a damn good book and enjoyed it?

I've honestly tried to follow some of the other threads on TLD and I'm beginning to feel very depressed. I haven't a clue what some of you are talking about - I have to keep looking up words "Jung" (didn't realise it was a person) "deux ex machina" etc. etc.

Please, someone, say I'm not alone in this. No response means I'm the dimwit of the Watch!!

[TheFallen]

Is there anyone else like me who just read a damn good book and enjoyed it?

I've honestly tried to follow some of the other threads on TLD and I'm beginning to feel very depressed. I haven't a clue what some of you are talking about - I have to keep looking up words "Jung" (didn't realise it was a person) "deux ex machina" etc. etc.

Please, someone, say I'm not alone in this. No response means I'm the dimwit of the Watch!!

Don't get me wrong - I'm really happy you were able to enjoy it, Iolanthe. Joy is in the eyes that read, maybe, or at least beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. (Which is just another way of saying the undoubted universal truth that opinions are like assholes - everyone's got one)

As for having to run for the dictionary re posts here, surely that should make you feel at home if you're an SRD fan, no?

[iQuestor]

Is there anyone else like me who just read a damn good book and enjoyed it?

I've honestly tried to follow some of the other threads on TLD and I'm beginning to feel very depressed. I haven't a clue what some of you are talking about - I have to keep looking up words "Jung" (didn't realise it was a person) "deux ex machina" etc. etc.

Please, someone, say I'm not alone in this. No response means I'm the dimwit of the Watch!!

Iolanthe, you are definately not a "dimwit" of the watch.

to answer your direct question, "Its just a bloody book, isnt it?"

Well, to many of us, NO. Its not just a book. Reading TCTC changed most of our lives. which is why we are here on this forum. I have read the 1 & 2 chrons an even dozen times. More than any other series. I have attended elohimfests and talked total strangers into buying these books. Seriously. I often quote passages when in conversations which are relevant.

All readers are different, and have differing levels of "suspension of disbelief". Some don't analyze at all, or analyze every little thing. Some just read the story for what it is and others look for higher meaning.

What you are seeing here is a bunch of readers (myself definately included)who LOVED the first two Chrons, and had waited years until the Last Chrons were written, only to find that time has passed for SRD, Our Society, and ourselves. So our expectations were likely set way too high, and we aren't the readers we were 30+ years ago when we first read LFB. We expected the exact same quality and style of writing, and emotional rollercoaster of a story, and were dissapointed when SRD, 30 years older, didn't write it in the same way.

I personally don't feel the quality was there in the LC and that TLD in particular was rushed to the point of being unenjoyable. But, thats me: I wanted to read it like I read the 1 & 2 chrons, and have the same experience. I am not able to read SRD at the story level because I know what he is capable of as a writer. I've said before that TPTP was the most emotionally wringing experience i have ever had reading a book. I didn't ever have that experience reading anything in TLC.

This of course doesn't mean I'm a better reader, or more mature reader than you. It certainly doesnt mean that I'm right in some way and you are wrong. It just means we are different sorts of readers. And thats OK.

If you really enjoyed TLD and the Last Chrons, that's great!

[Iolanthe]

Yes, I've learned lots of new words. I also had to search the web for malachite - I thought that was an ancient Old Testament tribe or something, but I got confused with the Amalekites. It's a very beautiful green stone I see.

I just started this thread in case there was anyone else like me who was having difficulty joining in with the "intellectuals". When I come to ABQ in June I expect to get educated. Psychology wasn't on the syllabus when I was at school (I left school in 1970 with 1 A and S level in Religious Knowledge plus 6 O levels and 4 CSEs, obviously not enough to take apart SRD's writings).

[Iolanthe]

Well, to many of us, NO. Its not just a book. Reading TCTC changed most of our lives. which is why we are here on this forum.

Well, there lies the difference. You all seem to have been much younger when you read the 1st Chrons. Although they did have enough effect on me to want to read them again and again there was nothing life changing about them for me. I think I said more somewhere else and won't repeat myself.

This thread wasn't started as a criticism of any other threads, just so that anyone else who thought as I do can say so. I'm not asking anyone to "dumb down", and I'll keep reading the other threads until eventually something sinks in.

[dlbpharmd]

I'm not versed on psychology and can't follow those threads either. I just read them from a mod's standpoint.

[Joe the Lion]

Yep, and a badly written one at that. Certainly not of the calibre to inspire a forum like this. Chronicles I and II were used as the bait for the stylistic switch of Last Chronicles.

[Zarathustra]

There are some really intelligent people here, applying their intellect and education into well-reasoned arguments, while simultaneously speaking from the heart. I've been blown away by some of the things I've read in this forum, and I treasure a place where such individuals gather and speak their minds, unfettered, about a work that means so much to me personally. This particular forum has become both my caamora and my loresraat. I've both learned and shared grief. What's more "Donaldsonian" than that?

I don't think, "It's just a book" would sit well with people on either side of the fence here.

Despite my initial jolt of disappointment, there was plenty about the Last Chronicles that I liked, even in this book. Fatal Revenant is the highlight for me.

[dlbpharmd]

I agree, FR was the best of the Last Chronicles. I rank them like so:

1. FR
2. ROTE
3. TLD
4. AATE

[Iolanthe]

I don't think, "It's just a book" would sit well with people on either side of the fence here.

Actually Z, I don't think it's just a book either. Otherwise why am I here? I've never felt the need to join forums for any other author's books. Why am I still reading - in the middle of TIL at the moment. At least I can understand the comments in this thread, unlike many of those in the other TLD threads, which was perhaps my reason for starting it.

We all get something different from SD's writing, and none of the other threads seemed to view the book from my stance. My talents run in different directions and don't necessarily run to intricate critique of the text.

[ussusimiel]

Iolanthe, I understand your consternation at some of the other threads. Under normal circumstances I think the threads that you are seeing would not have started so early. We would normally be too taken up with discussing the story, the characters, our favourite moments etc. It would usually be months later that the more esoteric and academic theories got aired.

In my case, from very early on in ROTE, I realised that I wasn't going to enjoy the Last Chrons as a story in the same way that I had enjoyed the 1st & 2nd Chrons. In fact I had totally given up on the LCs until I found the Watch. Then I took another look at the books, found the G.I and read some of SRD's interviews. I began to think about the whole Chronicles in new and different way.

I can talk about my love for the 1st and 2nd Chrons (I read them at least once a year), I can name my favourite book (TIW), I can name my favourite moment (the caamora of the Giants), characters I love: Mhoram, Foamfollower, Hyrim, Pitchwife, Hollian, Hamako. I can't do any of this for the Last Chrons. (I tried rereading ROTE earlier this year and ground to a halt after about 200 pages.) For me, not one character has the same hold on my heart as even some of the more minor characters in the 1st & 2nd Chrons (no, not even Stave).

I am obviously not alone in this or else I would have little company in the rarefied TLD threads. I have reckoned before that the split between those who are disappointed with the Last Chrons and those happy with it is 2/3 to 1/3, and I think that this is reflected in the threads and the posts. Being able to talk about The Last Dark and The Last Chronicles in the academic and intellectualised way that we are doing is, for me, a way of being part of the conversation about SRD and being involved in a very important moment in the virtual life of the Watch community. I value that hugely. SRD's work means a lot to me and the Watch means a lot to me.

Yes, they are only books, but as you have noted you are not a member of a forum for any other author. Neither am I. I was drawn here by these books, by this author. It is not a coincidence. It is also not a coincidence that a community like the Watch has grown up around SRD's work. The 1st and 2nd Chronicles are great works of art and they do what great works of art should do, they draw people together in communion and intimacy, they make us aware of our shared humanity and they help us reaffirm our greatest hope and need: unity with others, so that we know that we are not alone in our hope and optimism and love for our half-sane conscious animal species, which (to paraphrase SRD) harbours such darkness and yet is capable of such light!

You are a fully-fledged part of that light here on the Watch, Iolanthe. Which is why you would go to the trouble of starting a thread like this. You wouldn't bother if it didn't matter. You are the last new member to get fully involved in the life of the Watch. I value that. Hopefully, (if our hyper-intellectual approach to TLD doesn't frighten them off ) some of the new people who joined recently will become as much a part of the Watch as you have!

u.

[lurch]

Wait a minute Io..I read something you posted a short while ago about..Jerimiah seeing Lindens history and being moved by it...and how important of an moment that was in the story..I couldn't agree with you more. You saw it...My point is..don't do this to your self. This ..its just a book.. No,,no its not. TCoTC is about personal identity. So..as much as its about the characters,,its about the author and his view of modern man and..its about You..Not who , or what, but How. Please, as said so often in the TLD..trust yourself. You are there. You are " getting" Donaldson if I am any judge of it. Don't let any of us " shape" you. Trust Yourself..SWMNBN is the metaphor of a person who allows the words and actions of Others to define and shape Who It is.

Please,no self defeating here. I make no shame of having to use a dictionary on just about every page of TCoTC..so don't be..imtimidated. Trust yourself..do some Creating of your own!

[dlbpharmd]

I can talk about my love for the 1st and 2nd Chrons (I read them at least once a year), I can name my favourite book (TIW), I can name my favourite moment (the caamora of the Giants), characters I love: Mhoram, Foamfollower, Hyrim, Pitchwife, Hollian, Hamako. I can't do any of this for the Last Chrons. (I tried rereading ROTE earlier this year and ground to a halt after about 200 pages.) For me, not one character has the same hold on my heart as even some of the more minor characters in the 1st & 2nd Chrons (no, not even Stave).

Wow. Even with my problems with the Last Chronicles, I can name my favorites (see my thread "The Biggest and the Best.")

[ussusimiel]

I can talk about my love for the 1st and 2nd Chrons (I read them at least once a year), I can name my favourite book (TIW), I can name my favourite moment (the caamora of the Giants), characters I love: Mhoram, Foamfollower, Hyrim, Pitchwife, Hollian, Hamako. I can't do any of this for the Last Chrons. (I tried rereading ROTE earlier this year and ground to a halt after about 200 pages.) For me, not one character has the same hold on my heart as even some of the more minor characters in the 1st & 2nd Chrons (no, not even Stave).

Wow. Even with my problems with the Last Chronicles, I can name my favorites (see my thread "The Biggest and the Best.")

I know, hardcore, huh! And yet I still read them all (even if it's unlikely that I'll ever do a reread ). Like some others, I treat the Last Chrons as almost completely separate from the 1st and 2nd Chrons. Initially I couldn't, but now when I read anything in the first two series my feelings are so starkly different from how I experience the LCs, that it's no struggle to separate the two.

u.

[rdhopeca]

Is there anyone else like me who just read a damn good book and enjoyed it?

I've honestly tried to follow some of the other threads on TLD and I'm beginning to feel very depressed. I haven't a clue what some of you are talking about - I have to keep looking up words "Jung" (didn't realise it was a person) "deux ex machina" etc. etc.

Please, someone, say I'm not alone in this. No response means I'm the dimwit of the Watch!!

For me, books fall into two categories....mindless escape, and then the truly deep, exciting, sit on the edge of your seat while you turn the page experience that reading can be.

If I want the first, I'll pull out Brooks or even Eddings. If I want the latter, it's SRD all the way. There's nothing else out there in the genres I love (sci-fi, fantasy) that are produced at the high intellectual and emotional level like SRD's work. Even Mordant's Need is a step up from the other stuff out there, IMO.

So, no, in this case, it's not just a book. But any other book would be.

[Iolanthe]

Thank you rdhopeca, you've given me something I can latch onto. Emotional level, yes, certainly. It's the "intellectual level" I'm having trouble with. I certainly understand what is happening, what the characters are feeling, and as Lurch so kindly mentioned, I am able to contribute a comment or two here or there, but as to the deeper purpose, other than maybe on a subliminal level, it's just not happening for me.

Said very simply, I had no specific expectations, or perhaps I should say needs, from TLD, therefore I was not disappointed.

[ussusimiel]

Emotional level, yes, certainly.

This is a really good way to look at this. For me there is no emotional connection with the LCs, so what I am left with has to be solely the intellectual level. This may explain why some of the threads are so hyper-intellectualised.

u.

[Iolanthe]

I find that very sad, u. If you have no empathy with the characters I can see how that makes it difficult to like the book. For me, watching the relationship grow between Stave and Linden was a beautiful thing.

[TWDuke77]

...just a bloody book...?

As discussed, of course it isn't. It's been an experience, and a lifelong passion.

But..

I couldn't help thinking, as I read the last volume, that SRD was starting to feel just that - it's just a bloody book. Knowing full well how he's agonised over every last detail, sometimes to the point of excruciation, with the first half of AATE being a particularly painful example of this, I find it almost impossible to believe that he could ever feel this way. But in TLD it READS like he's almost given up trying. Like it's just a bloody book.

Which leads me to a thought-provoking conclusion: somehow, SRD meant the last volume to be received this way. He knew we'd fly through it at break-neck speed, precisely because that's how he wrote it. This was all intentional.

I have enough ingrained faith in SRD to believe that this is true and it just makes me want to read TLD again. My second read of AATE was revelatory - I hated it the first time, but knowing what to expect, a second reading was incredibly satisfying. So why did TLD turn out the way it did? What did SRD mean by it? I can't believe he got careless, much less so lazy.

Instead of criticising as much as we have, perhaps we ought to be asking these questions, taking it as a given that we can trust SRD not to let us down

In short: what are we missing?

I digress, however. In short, I'm not a great one for over-analysis and completely sympathise with you, Iolanthe. A lot of these threads are simply beyond me.

Yet I care enough to keep checking back in for some more bafflement....

Because it's far, far more than just a bloody book

[ussusimiel]

Yes, it's a bit sad in its own way, Iolanthe. However, I wasn't really surprised. The emotional intensity of the end of the 2nd Chrons was of such a pitch that I couldn't imagine how it could be matched. The sacrifice and death of TC mirrors that of Frodo in The Lord of the Rings. I similarly can't imagine how any story that involved Frodo coming back from the Blessed Isles could match the previous story. In some essential way they are no longer fully human, perhaps they are closer to a being a myth or a legend than anything else. Even if they give up their life again it just can't have the same impact.*


u.

* I have written previously about another possible way I think SRD could have approached telling the story.