For's vs Against's [and 'Real World Protagonists]

[iQuestor]

The Chronicles are character narratives... specifically, they are about Thomas Covenant, Linden Avery, and somewhat about Jeremiah. They (in their respective Chronicles) are the story. All the other characters are only as important as they relate to these characters. There are benefits and weaknesses to this. Essentially, we get a couple fantastic characters, but the periphery ones will, by necessity, be underdeveloped.

And, if you do not like one of the principal characters, it would make the story very hard to read.

Perhaps my ultimate criticism of the Last Chronicles is that, more then the previous two, it tries to blend "literary" writing with "fantasy genre" writing. And, based on the audience, that's an issue. The audience, expecting a fantasy, do not want to read something like Faulkner. Then others, expecting literary, do not want to read something with fantasy genre conventions.

Donaldson tried to mix, say, Titus Groan with The Sword of Shanara... and that can be very disorienting, particularly over the course of 9 years.

I felt that SRD was successful in mixing Fantasy with Literature in the first and second chrons...

[peter]

Three good posts! Dealing with them in order, I think the idea of a deliberate atempt to create not only a greyer landscape but also a greyer feel to the 3rd Chrons could only ever backfire in the eyes of the majority of readers because the glory of the first two series was their 'glory'. The third Chrons would have had to go somewhere very clever to surplant this in the expectations of the TC fan base - and alas it failed to do so.[Truly does the glory of the world become less than it was.]

On Z.'s point - I have a feeling that SRD once gave an explanation for the Mhoram sequences, perhaps even in the intro to 'Gilden Fire'. I know he was able to rationalise them in some way, quite possibly in the same manner as Z. outlines and/or possibly pertaining to Mhoram's being alone rather than in company of a third party.

I think the last post nails the reason for 'our world' protagonists possibly best of all for me. Yes of course - the 'charachter driven' nature of the books would demand that few charachters were explored in depth rather than a broad sweep across a larger number. Sticking with 'our world' individuals gives a continuity to the narrative and by it's very nature focuses on those for whom translation to the Land and it's resultant effects would be a unifying theme. [Interesting possibilities if Rodger and Joan had been brought in on this.] I can't altogether agree that the peripheral charachters were in any way underdeveloped in the first two series - but yes, we did not get to see their 'inner landscape' to the same extent as TC's and Linden's even here. The criticism of attempting a blend of fantasy and literary writing - and not pulling it off - is bang on the mark for me. In atempting to do all the risk was of doing nothing. That level of critisism might be too harsh but the 3rd Chrons tends that way at least.

[edit Sorry iQuestor - the curse of 'the next page post' again I'm afraid. Yes agreed If any sucesses in such a blend was ever achieved then the first six books would have to rank amongst them - but the style was literary ala Tolkein rather than Dostoyevski perhaps.]

[ussusimiel]

Three good posts! Dealing with them in order, I think the idea of a deliberate atempt to create not only a greyer landscape but also a greyer feel to the 3rd Chrons could only ever backfire in the eyes of the majority of readers because the glory of the first two series was their 'glory'. The third Chrons would have had to go somewhere very clever to surplant this in the expectations of the TC fan base - and alas it failed to do so.[Truly does the glory of the world become less than it was.]

I agree with you, peter. Few things in the LCs annoyed me as consistently as Kevin's Dirt; it was the Sunbane with a stupid inglorious name and Linden was forever having to wave her stick around and dispel it and feel relieved and washed clean and renewed and refreshed yada, yada, yada. (It seemed like a Blue Light Special picked up from Kmart called SRDevices-PLOT'n'GO ). But I do think that fans would have gone for something else if it was plausible (we managed the Sunbane, didn't we? (Well some of us anyway )). If the aim was to bring the experience of the Land closer to our 'reality' then even something as simple of a withdrawal of Earthpower to a deeper level (so that the people of the Land could no longer perceive it, but Linden and Co, with a bit of help (Staff, orcrest, lomiliallor etc.) could) would have achieved the same effect.

At this stage I have convinced myself that the reduction of the 'glory' of the Land was consistent and deliberate on the part of SRD. It was the final step after all. What I'm still trying to work out is why this was so necessary? What other process is being mirrored by making our experience of being in the Land more and more ordinary? Is it a lesson that we are being led through? Is there some implication that fantasy should in some way lead us back to 'reality' and that that is the fulfillment of its purpose? (Answers on a postcard please to, Puzzled and Frazzled Fantazy Fruitz, Dublin, Ireland )

The criticism of attempting a blend of fantasy and literary writing - and not pulling it off - is bang on the mark for me. In atempting to do all the risk was of doing nothing. That level of critisism might be too harsh but the 3rd Chrons tends that way at least.

[edit Sorry iQuestor - the curse of 'the next page post' again I'm afraid. Yes agreed If any sucesses in such a blend was ever achieved then the first six books would have to rank amongst them - but the style was literary ala Tolkein rather than Dostoyevski perhaps.]

I don't think that SRD was ever trying for a 'literary' (where's lucimay to kick my tradionalist butt while shouting, 'It's all literary you elitist p***k! ) mode while writing the Chrons. He makes no bones about the fact that he is first and foremost a storyteller. IMO, the 'literary' element in his work is in his use of symbol and metaphor rather than in the writing itself. C'mon! He uses words like he's swallowed a Greco-Latin thesaurus! That doesn't lend itself to literary, it lends itself to parody (as we have all surely attempted in our own incondign, unambergrised, clinquant, fey and anile ways ). (And as iQuestor says, if he was, he succeeded admirably in the 1st and 2nd Chrons and failed abysmally in the LCs.)

u.

[Zarathustra]

Speaking of Kevin's Dirt, what was the point of it, again? We learn in FR or AATE that it was created by Kasty to limit Linden's use of Earthpower. Why? That's an aweful lot of trouble to go to, when you don't even know for sure if she'd retrieve that Staff in order to use Earthpower. And when it came down to it, she wasn't really all that limited. She was able to 'bring it' when she needed to--especially with the krill and the ring, when she brought TC back.

If it really was LF's intention to have Linden bring TC back and wake the Worm, why didn't he do anything to make it easier for her? Why didn't *he* get rid of Kevin's Dirt? Why didn't he make the Staff easier to get to? Why didn't he clear her path to the krill, so she didn't have to fight her way to it? He's an immortal god ... surely he could have done *something* to stop Roger and Kasty from making it so hard on her. He led her to hurtloam, and then just left her to her own devices? Why?

[peter]

A further point on the 'why' board for me is why didn't Foul concentrate once more on TC's still highly problematic inability to controll his use of 'wild magic'. Ok - this ploy was curtailed by Tc's surrender of his ring at the end of 2C, but the ploy itself was working well. If Foul had just inflicted a few more venom infusions and stayed 'on the run' a bit more it would have been bye bye AOT. All of 3C seems an unnecessarily contrived and complicated misaplication of effort to me.

[dlbpharmd]

Speaking of Kevin's Dirt, what was the point of it, again? We learn in FR or AATE that it was created by Kasty to limit Linden's use of Earthpower. Why?

It's a good question.

Before ROTE was published, I remember thinking that Linden, upon returning to The Land, would have to be diminished somehow. Think about it: at the end of WGW, she wields white gold and the new SoL together and heals The Land. What powers in the Earth could possibly stand against wild magic and Earthpower together? Along those lines, would we really be interested in the doings of a near omnipotent protagonist?

Kevin's Dirt was a mechanism to diminish Linden. It limited her ability to see, which is her primary power. We learned in FR that it capped the amount of Earthpower that she could draw upon, so that she would never be able to fight the skurj with Law alone, and would have to use wild magic - threatening the AoT (another of Foul's stratagems, perhaps?)

Having said that, I was just as annoyed by KD as the rest of you. I remember in TLD, when Kasty extended KD to cover the Lower Land, I was really pissed about it. I was tired of the constant need to refresh with Earthpower, either by Linden or Liand with his orcrest. "Kevin's Dirt" was an awful, awful name. SRD really botched that one.

[peter]

On the contrary DLBpharmD - Kevins Dirt was such a good name for ....er ..... Kevins Dirt that it was boardering on the onomatopoeic. It was dull, stifling, grey and conducive to depression.

[You will note that my last sentance can be equally applied to the name or the Dirt itself which, I think, goes to prove my point exactly. ]

[SleeplessOne]

I'm on balance "against" the Last Chrons. I don't find it irredeemably bad at all - how could it be, because SRD has proven himself before now a writer of supreme talent and this shines through on more than one occasion. However, I find it seriously flawed, because I think it devolves into the self-indulgent. As I've said elsewhere, SRD ever-growingly abandons those oh so important demands of narrative, plot and characterisation - they're the crucial elements that draw the reader into a work of fiction in the first place. Instead he focusses - ever more exclusively as the work draws to its damp squib culmination (dramatically speaking) - upon delivering his philosophical view of the world (or Weltanschauung, to use the poncy term).

just finished the book, a lot to mull over, looking forward to reading all the TLD posts on KW when i get a bit of time (I'm currently on holiday for a few days and have borrowed my son's computer very quickly to get a quick read on KW posters views - he wants it back !).

but the quoted portion of your comment resonates quite strongly with me, the_Fallen, even though I think overall i enjoyed the last chronicles.

However I think my problem with this aspect of chronicles goes back to the 2nd chrons; this is when I first sensed SRD was almost rushing past certain crucial elements that grounded the first chronicles so thoroughly in order to advance his philosophical agendas.

So while I completely see your point on this matter, i also don't think it's a problem unique to the last chronicles.

when I have more time I will flesh out my assertion with examples that frustrated me regarding the 2nd chrons, but for now, the most glaring example comes from TLD.

Speaking with Infelice, Linden laments the loss of millions of lives.
I never, ever got the sense that there were millions of lives at stake in the final chronicles - the Land seemed completely bereft of inhabitant aside from those directly participating in the Lands fate !

Definitely a flaw or fault.

but one that didn't take me by surprise, as i said : this has become (to me) increasingly problematic over the course of the 2nd and final chronicles as SRD chose to move toward a more abstract, philosophical rendering of his own story.

looking forward to getting involved more in the coming days and weeks !

[peter]

This has troubled me also SleeplessOne. Where are all the people? The only glimpse we got of them as far as I can recall, was at the very start of TROTE in Mithil Stonedown. In 1C particularly it was the people of the Land with their simple love and kindness that moved one to feel that this was a place worth protecting, worth fighting for. Where did that go?

[starkllr]

Agreed, on the emptiness of the land.

We actually didn't even see anyone in Mithil Stonedown. The only stonewodnor we met was Liand.

We did get a very brief glimpse of the Woodhelven that was destroyed by the caesure in the 2nd half of Fatal Revenant, but that's pretty much it as far as "regular people of the Land" are concerned.

[dlbpharmd]

I've never had the sense in any of the Chronicles that the population of the Land was anywhere close to a million.

I assumed Linden was talking about the population world-wide.

[deer of the dawn]

My guesstimate of the Land's population was always in the hundreds of thousands, not tens of millions, but then, their is Brathairealm, Gianthome, where the Haruchai came from, and who knows where else? (As for Kevin's Dirt, why is it Kevin's? I don't remember who named it, and the Land's people were not aware of it for the most part.)

I think the increasing darkness and dullness of the LC was a device to give the final sunrise greater impact. If so, then perhaps the flaw lay in having that happen too quickly. But as Samwise Gamgee said, happy times make for short, uninteresting stories.

If I find any flaw in the Chrons, it is with the pacing in general. I find that I have to read some parts quickly or I feel bogged down-- whether Covenant is mulling over his leperhood or Linden is ignoring people who are urgently warning her because she has to process something or there are just too many Cavewights or ur-viles and they take too long to defeat-- and then other times, I have to make myself slow down and absorb every word to make it last longer because it's too beautiful to pass over lightly.

All in all, the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever are not for everyone.

But I feel immensely blessed and satisfied by the whole thing.

[SleeplessOne]

I struggled to get into the first chronicles, starting LFB twice (though I was quite young, both times) before eventually reading all three books.

I labored through large parts of the second chronicles also.

I truly love them, but I tend to think my own nostalgia can tend to blur the fact that upon initially reading them, I found the original six books to at times be a frustrating experience and a grind.

It was upon re-reads that I gleaned more insight & heard more joy in the tales; and it seemed that as I matured as a person I was able to relate to the themes with deeper understanding.

I'll be giving the last chronicles another go at some point, it may be a few years, but I expect new depths to reveal themselves when that time comes.