I missed something.....when did the Worm...

[High Lord Tolkien]

I missed something.....when did we get to the point that when the Worm devours all the Earthpower the Arch falls apart?

What's the Worm and Arch of Time connection?

Or do I need to just continue to wait patiently for Wayfriend's updated Cosmology essay?

(hint hint, nudge nudge, Wayfriend, make it all make sense to me please!)

[dlbpharmd]

I'm not certain, but I believe it was Infelice who first said that the AoT would collapse as soon as the Worm drank the EarthBlood.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Yeah.......lol....why is that though?
Seems like that wasn't really explained or I missed it.
In the OT the Arch was threatened by TC ripping it apart trying to fight the Worm.

Think we're ever going to get a unified Creation story that wraps it all up?
Or is that one of those horrible "up to the reader to decide" things?

[Zarathustra]

Symbolically, the Worm is death/mortality/entropy. As relates to Time, entropy follows the "arrow of time" such that the world naturally "runs down" as time goes forward, and chaos increases. Using my typical example, you never see broken cups spontaneously rise from the floor and reassemble themselves--not unless you reversed time and ran everything backward, or if you suspended the arrow of time such that causality itself no longer holds. (I believe this is what enabled the recreation of the Land ... the cup being put back together. More on that below.)

Therefore, time and entropy (or death) are linked by the nature of the universe, the processes which make life possible. Life wouldn't be possible without linear time and rational causality, and yet this inescapably requires that life will also end.

The Worm was awakened by violating these necessary processes--these Laws. Covenant was brought back to life, much like the cup spontaneously reassembling itself. It's not supposed to happen. Therefore, the Worm awakening and devouring Earthpower, breaking the Arch, was like nature's way of setting that violation right, accounting for it. You *can* have local increases in order, you *can* ostensibly "violate" entropy, but only by increasing disorder for the rest of the world or universe. [2nd law of thermodynamics ... about which Donaldson claimed to be "telling the truth." His words.]

That's why the world had to end. The dead are not supposed to be brought back to life. A corresponding increase in disorder had to balance that out.

So the question is ... how then were they able to recreate the world and the Land? What balanced out that local increase in order? The answer is SheWho. She was released beyond the Arch, increasing the "disorder" in the universe as a whole, to pay the price of a local increase in order, allowing life to flourish again, locally, for a time.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I'm not even thinking that deeply.
What came first the Arch or the Worm?
If the Arch was before the Worm then nothing the Worm could do could destroy the Arch...or so I thought.

[blingdomepiece]

I'm not even thinking that deeply.
What came first the Arch or the Worm?
If the Arch was before the Worm then nothing the Worm could do could destroy the Arch...or so I thought.

I think the idea that the Worm could destroy the Arch existed back in the 2nd chronicles; the reason they backed off on the One Tree was because they realized this.

I'm not sure it's a specific cosmological principle but simply that the Worm would wreak enough havoc. There is also the suggestion in the Last Chronicles that if the Worm dukes it out with She, that will also be sufficient to end everything.

It might not clear why the Worm would be powerful enough to disrupt the Arch but Foul isn't, but I believe that in the creation, the Worm is "designed" to be the destructive mechanism. A beginning has the necessity of an ending, as Covenant said. The creation has to contain the seed of its own destruction. So the Worm is the mechanism, and should it be roused from sleep and then put in a position where it unleashes enough power, that does it.

I've only finished the book a couple days ago so the thoughts are still swirling around, but that's my impression.

[lurch]

the song has it they play cards, which I'm not sure of, but ,worms are nature's recyclers. In that sense death and rebirth become one , with the Worm. As nightmarish as the Worm was portrayed, bringer of tsunami, devourer of stars and consumer of vast quantities of Earth Power...the destruction of the Arch of Time seemed always a side effect of the Worms rampage rather than a direct target of its appetite. It is interesting how so much of the forward knowledge of The Worm turned out to be..bullschitt.

In any case The Worm can't be taken literally. I mean ..its as big as a mountain range yet it can devour stars and do so at a noticeable rate,,then,,come to the Land and go for the raw meat of Melenkurion Skyweir...Obvious dream like or nightmareish distortions of Space and Time to make anyone wake up screaming in a cold sweat. So, yes, if there is confusion, disorientation, consider that it may be intentional. And theres that constant updating by Jeremiah ...that got me wondering about the tension between dwindling number of pages left to read and the destruction of the Arch of Time...Maybe, consider The Worm as the mobius strip that is Nature. There is a Hope, Love and Compassion in that,,that is eternal

[Innominate Theurgist]

the song has it they play cards, which I'm not sure of, but ,worms are nature's recyclers. In that sense death and rebirth become one , with the Worm. As nightmarish as the Worm was portrayed, bringer of tsunami, devourer of stars and consumer of vast quantities of Earth Power...the destruction of the Arch of Time seemed always a side effect of the Worms rampage rather than a direct target of its appetite.

Excellent point. That is exactly what worms do.

In any case The Worm can't be taken literally. I mean ..its as big as a mountain range yet it can devour stars and do so at a noticeable rate,,then,,come to the Land and go for the raw meat of Melenkurion Skyweir...

I think you might be taking the star-devouring a bit too literally. The stars vanished at some sort of commensurate rate as the Elohim it caught and consumed. Now, if anyone cares to write a treatise on the relationship between the stars and Infelice's folk, I'd love to see those thoughts.

[lurch]

Yes, stars as metaphor of the Elohim's purity, singular brilliance, ideal, etc, but to get to that ,a figurative or metaphorical jump has to be made., True , I exaggerated the non realistic to make my point. The night sky with all its firmament is but a part of the Creator's Land , so, it is of the metaphor. And yes,,how is it that a ethereal ideal gets to have a star representing its existence? Nice work of the imagination by the author, thats how...imho..

[Innominate Theurgist]

In TLD, Brinn tells Covenant "As the Worm of Death rises, the Tree of Life withers, etc."

Has anyone ever made a connection between the Worm and the Scandinavian serpent Nidhogg, which coiled at the roots of Yggdrasil and chew through the root on Ragnarok? I realize the Worm did not chew up the Tree, but it is headed straight for another kind of root--EarthRoot.

[TheFallen]

Has anyone ever made a connection between the Worm and the Scandinavian serpent Nidhogg, which coiled at the roots of Yggdrasil and chew through the root on Ragnarok? I realize the Worm did not chew up the Tree, but it is headed straight for another kind of root--EarthRoot.

I'm not sure, but it's a good call. I think Frostheart's the resident Snorri Sturluson expert here.

Of course, if the Worm's not a Níðhöggr analog, it might be a Jörmungandr analog - or an amalgamation of the two. If my memory serves me rightly, at Ragnarök, Jörmungandr - the Midgard serpent - thrashes wildly within the deep oceans into which it had been cast down and trapped. In setting itself free, it causes tidal waves (sounds familiar, maybe?). It then advances on the nine realms and poisons the sky (sounds familiar again, maybe? Poisoning the sky is sort of equal to killing stars?).

I think SRD has multiple influences and of course lots of mythologies share common archetypes... a thing which some might claim proves the existence of the collective unconscious. Nevertheless, sure, I agree that there's definitely a traceable element of the Norse there. Although SRD's giants tend to be a whole heap friendlier than the jötnar...

[Innominate Theurgist]

For the record, I'm very glad SRD's Giants don't behave like the Jotuns!

I'm fairly certain Nidhogg and Jormy derive from the same archetypal source, though it has been quite some time I read into such matters. In any case, your recount of Jormy's behavior and effects upon the sky and earth do indeed go hand in hand with the advent of the Worm.

I'm surprised I never made the Nidhogg/Yggdrasil connection with the One Tree before. I've read these darn books enough times!

[Frostheart Grueburn]

TLD is so Norse I'd just call it Twilight of the Gods straight away. I GUESSED the bloody novel's outcome just based on Völuspá. Not word-to-word or chronological but most of the elements are present. In my eyes Wormy is a joyful union of Jörmungandr and Níðhöggr.

Some stanzas about Ragnarökkr, the end of the world:

50. [. . .]
In giant-wrath | does the serpent [Jörmungandr] writhe;
O'er the waves he twists, //The Worm approached the land from the direction of the sea

55.[...]
The bright snake [Jörmungandr again] gapes | to heaven above;
[...] Against the serpent | goes Othin's son. //Wormy was certainly bright as well

57. The sun turns black, | earth sinks in the sea //This we saw
The hot stars down | from heaven are whirled //Close enough

Then there are descriptions of storms and strong winds.

Jörmungandr's other name Midgarðsormr means "Middle-Earth Worm". So SRD's is "End-Earth Worm"?

Níðhöggr gnaws on the roots of Yggdrasil beneath the earth but also eats the blood of the slain in one stanza. The world tree (=one tree) suffers greatly in Ragnarökkr. Some clear inspirational connections here.

From below the dragon | dark comes forth,
Nithhogg flying | from Nithafjoll;
The bodies of men on | his wings he bears,
The serpent bright: | but now must I sink.


SRD has been inspired by the jötnar (visible in the whole blatant Jötunheimr = Gianthome for instance), but I've mentioned about half an umpteen times we have handsome, heroic, friendly sea-faring giants (some who even power ships with songs) in Finnic mythology. Either SRD is squeamish about revealing his sources, or this is pure coincidence. But, essentially, he has turned the role of the jötnar in the Ragnarökkr upside down: instead of the (Frost) Giants battling against the Æsir, Team RimeFrost sides with the gods aka beings from beyond time: Linden, TC, and Jeremiah.

Then again, he has replaced some of the Æsir-opposing jötnar with other characters. Kastenessen resembles Surtr the Fire Giant to the point that he had transformed himself massive. Lots and lots of other NM/Wagnerish examples in the LCs. The Arch of Time resembles Bifröst the Rainbow bridge that connects the realms of mortals and gods. Wasn't the Arch a rainbow as well? Whatever, but both shatter during the Twilight (without sparkly vampires). Now I spent two hours on this entry so say something while I'm asleep in Frostheim.

[Innominate Theurgist]

Frostheart, this deserves a long, well-reasoned, congratulatory response. Alas, I have not time to post one, but Joy is in the Eyes that Read, and your response made me very happy.

I should learn more about Finnish myth. Aside from a long-ago read of the Kalevala, I'm shamefully ignorant on this subject...

Oh yeah, and Arch, Wounded Rainbow, Bifrost. Bingo.

[ussusimiel]

Interesting and clear connections, Frosty. In don't know much about ancient myths (not even Irish ones ) but it's clear that they inform SRD's writing in the Chrons.

It's kinda strange that while I really enjoy the myth-making of people like SRD and Tolkien, I've never been gripped by the old myths (Greek, Celtic, Norse etc.). Even in Tolkien I found The Silmarillion hard going (and never read The Book of Lost Tales even though I bought it.). Maybe I'm a modernophile!

u.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

When the Worm drinks of the Earthblood, it will become so powerful it will collapse the Arch of Time. It's that simple.

[lurch]

When the Worm drinks of the Earthblood, it will become so powerful it will collapse the Arch of Time. It's that simple.

I like the simplicity,,cuz there is no linear reasoning to it..It just is..but that means there will be objection to the simplicity. Maybe if it is seen as invisible energy, this Earthblood,,like uranium radiation ,,you don't kno is doin a number on you until you die from it. ..or maybe like magnetism,,you don't sense the power of it until metal objects start flying thru the air towards the magnet....Simple,,yes..but then that asks what is Earth Blood..

Worm consumes vast quantities of Earth Blood until the Worm becomes so powerful that the Arch of Time is destroyed..Howabout...the Worm is us,,the reader,,and the Arch of Time is..The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant,,and the Earth Blood...The Earth Blood is message,,the authors theme,,Your Humanity..Who You Are..We consume enough of the author's theme, his ideas, and sooner or later we get it..we don't need TCoTC any more. ..He has planted the seed in our soul..

[thewormoftheworld'send]

When the Worm drinks of the Earthblood, it will become so powerful it will collapse the Arch of Time. It's that simple.

I like the simplicity,,cuz there is no linear reasoning to it..It just is..but that means there will be objection to the simplicity. Maybe if it is seen as invisible energy, this Earthblood,,like uranium radiation ,,you don't kno is doin a number on you until you die from it. ..or maybe like magnetism,,you don't sense the power of it until metal objects start flying thru the air towards the magnet....Simple,,yes..but then that asks what is Earth Blood..

Worm consumes vast quantities of Earth Blood until the Worm becomes so powerful that the Arch of Time is destroyed..Howabout...the Worm is us,,the reader,,and the Arch of Time is..The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant,,and the Earth Blood...The Earth Blood is message,,the authors theme,,Your Humanity..Who You Are..We consume enough of the author's theme, his ideas, and sooner or later we get it..we don't need TCoTC any more. ..He has planted the seed in our soul..

Even simpler, something I stole from a webpage:

"Covenant saw. The Staff of Plot. Destroyed. For the Staff of Plot had been formed by Berek Halfhand as a tool to serve and uphold the Plot. He had fashioned the Staff from a limb of the One Tree as a way to wield Earthpower in defence of the health of the Land, in support of the natural order of life. And because Earthpower was the strength of mystery and spirit, the Staff became the thing it served. It was the Plot; the Plot was incarnate in the Staff. The tool and its purpose were one. And the Staff had been destroyed. That loss had weakened the very fibre of the Plot. A crucial support was withdrawn, and the Plot faltered."

[lurch]

..That is kinda funny..,,like the visual of The Lurker reeling up to divert The Worm..i still get a giggle out of that on several levels.

[TheFallen]

Interesting and clear connections, Frosty. In don't know much about ancient myths (not even Irish ones ) but it's clear that they inform SRD's writing in the Chrons.

It's kinda strange that while I really enjoy the myth-making of people like SRD and Tolkien, I've never been gripped by the old myths (Greek, Celtic, Norse etc.). Even in Tolkien I found The Silmarillion hard going (and never read The Book of Lost Tales even though I bought it.). Maybe I'm a modernophile!

u.

For shame, u! There's you in the Emerald Isle with a massively rich mythological legacy and you dutifully ignore it? You've got all that Tuatha de Danaan stuff, what with Tir Nan Nog, the Dagda, Lugh Long Arm, Dian Cecht, Manannan mac Lir, The Morrighan and loads more I've now forgotten, plus Cuchulainn and Fin mac Cool etc etc. Over here in England, there's next to nothing - Morris dancers and Robin Goodfellow is about all we can come up with.
(Sorry, but even though I'm 3/4ths Scots, this irritates me).

Frosty, thanks for the excellent info. I'm always suitably impressed with someone who provides source quotations from original texts (in translation, thank God) and you certainly deserve your reputation as Snorri expert.

As I'm sure has been discussed before, if you go looking, you can find numerous correlations between the Chrons and Norse mythology. Some will be clearly entirely deliberate and others less so. Here are just a few more to go along with the Worm of World's End being an analoguous amalgam of both Níðhöggr and Jörmungandr

One-eyedness is a sign of wisdom - Óðinn trades an eye for a draught from Mimir's well, a magical font of knowledge. Stave of course also loses an eye in his progressive gaining of wisdom throughout the LCs.

A damaged hand is a sign of courage - Tyr, the Norse god associated with law and heroic glory in battle (!!!), sacrifices his right hand in order that the other less valorous Æsir are able to trick Fenrir, the Fenris wolf, into being captured and bound. Similarities to Berek, TC or even Jeremiah, anyone?

The concept of a magic ring is of course to be found in the Völsunga saga, which features Sigurðr as its central character.

Plus of course the very title of The Last Dark is, as Frosty says, effectively a synonym of Götterdämmerung, the twilight of the gods. In the Norse legends dealing with Ragnarök, the world is consumed by fire courtesy of the evil jötunn Surtr, a fire-god (Kastenessen and the skurj as Frosty says, maybe?) before being submerged in water, to rise reborn from the oceans.

I think this goes way beyond coincidental standard mythic archetypes from any collective unconscious and it's unsurprising that such quintessentially epic source material should have influenced SRD in some way.