It's just a bloody book! Isn't it?

[lurch]

fiction...has plot. Fiction has theme or themes. For a writer, there are other properties ,,modes,,for example, but from a reader point of view,,there is plot and there is theme. Plot is the obvious in most cases.,,the " Story".Plots don't have to be linear but most are. Plots don't even have to be.." of plot or,," plotty",,but those are the exception. The classic Surreal fiction,,the reader may not have a solid idea of what the heck its about,,until the last chapter and even at that,,the last few pages of the last chapter..Andre' Bretons classic, Nadja" and a lot of his ensuing work is that way. But with practice , reading his fiction and nonfiction does get easier.

So, with Siurrealism,,the metaphor is the message. Plot becomes just a device to get the reader to the important ,,the Theme. The message is in the Metaphor. That difference,,is what Surrealism is all about..sur---real..extra reality..different reality.

We like great plot lines...Thats the emotional involvement...Theme shows itself between the lines. One of things I like about the Last Chrons is that Donaldson blurred the lines of the genre. Mystery came into the Fantasy at the beginning of FR..SRD also had Mystery in the sci-fi Mordants Need/ Man Rides Thru,,and even in the Gap series. ( who was behind all the suicide bombings for an example)..But in FR, the Mystery of the fake TC and Jerry served the theme of Surrealism with the emphasis of " Illusion". Donaldson keeps Mystery active with..Linden in TLD saying she knew what she had to do( facing her worst fears)..with out ever telling us that she intended to face SWMNBN one more time....Yet,,if one is into thematic detection or just luvs Mystery..you mite have already surmised her final appointment with SWMNBN as well as that slap down SWMNBN delivered to Foul...or..that the TC and Jerry who frantically rode in to Revelstone..were wrong from the start...So..careful with the ..its just a book.. Not with Donaldson's work.. Its Art. ..its Grand Literature, and with that,, the reader may have to expand their horizons a bit. May have to be careful with the pretense. May have to make adjustments to their expectations....Allow any frustration to motivate. We have to rise to the Art. Seldom does Art rise to the reader.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

*pokes wasp's nest with a stick* Well, I wasn't going to add anything here at least for the next six months, but seeing Io's post...FINALLY someone else who enjoyed the story (in spite of some of its problems/loose thread-ends). And I'm glad you did so. In other circumstances I might've posted a looong review squealing over my favorite mush-moments and the happy pink-tinged My Little Pony ending, but now I have a feeling I'd just get labeled stupid over a wee bit of estrogen overflow. :/
I guessed quite a lot of things correctly beforehand, including the recreation of the Earth and the conclusion mirroring Mordan'ts Need, based on some simple knowledge about Wagner/Norse myths.

[Iolanthe]

Oh Frosty, I'm so glad you came back to say that. I have missed you!!! We are sisters in enjoyment.

And Lurch, you hand me yet another lifeline. I spent a fairly large part of FR mentally shouting at Linden "It's not TC" - I guessed while they were still in Revelstone. And it was obvious (to me) what her worst fear was in TLD, as it was also obvious to TC and to Stave if to no-one else.

[dlbpharmd]

And it was obvious (to me) what her worst fear was in TLD, as it was also obvious to TC and to Stave if to no-one else.

Sorry, I'm not following you - what was her worst fear?

[iQuestor]

*pokes wasp's nest with a stick* Well, I wasn't going to add anything here at least for the next six months, but seeing Io's post...FINALLY someone else who enjoyed the story (in spite of some of its problems/loose thread-ends). And I'm glad you did so. In other circumstances I might've posted a looong review squealing over my favorite mush-moments and the happy pink-tinged My Little Pony ending, but now I have a feeling I'd just get labeled stupid over a wee bit of estrogen overflow. :/I guessed quite a lot of things correctly beforehand, including the recreation of the Earth and the conclusion mirroring Mordan'ts Need, based on some simple knowledge about Wagner/Norse myths.

To my knowledge, NO ONE has been labelled 'stupid' or any other negative connotation based on whether they like the book, or not. Matter of fact it has been a point to make sure that isn't the case.

Many of us here aren't thrilled with the book, but implying that we label people negatively who like the book is wrong.

[TheFallen]

And it was obvious (to me) what her worst fear was in TLD, as it was also obvious to TC and to Stave if to no-one else.

Sorry, I'm not following you - what was her worst fear?

Rejection and abandonment - plus the implicit fear that she must be both incapable and unworthy of being loved, all as embodied in SWMNBN. Remember the "lessons" taught to her by her parents...

[dlbpharmd]

And it was obvious (to me) what her worst fear was in TLD, as it was also obvious to TC and to Stave if to no-one else.

Sorry, I'm not following you - what was her worst fear?

Rejection and abandonment - plus the implicit fear that she must be both incapable and unworthy of being loved, all as embodied in SWMNBN. Remember the "lessons" taught to her by her parents...

Ahhhh.....but wouldn't that fear have been instantly alleviated when TC put the ring on her finger?

[Iolanthe]

And it was obvious (to me) what her worst fear was in TLD, as it was also obvious to TC and to Stave if to no-one else.

Sorry, I'm not following you - what was her worst fear?

I saw her worst fear as SWMNBN, but I didn't have a clue what Linden was going to do when she got there.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

I've missed you too, Io. I think I'll stay offline for some time yet, but I'm traveling to GB over the yule holidays, any chances of a minifest?

iQ: I'm glad you wouldn't do so, but I've been called a selection of very interesting terminology peppered with expletives over much lesser matters here before. I'd prefer to bury this subject now, thanks!

[iQuestor]

I've missed you too, Io. I think I'll stay offline for some time yet, but I'm traveling to GB over the yule holidays, any chances of a minifest?

iQ: I'm glad you wouldn't do so, but I've been called a selection of very interesting terminology peppered with expletives over much lesser matters here before. I'd prefer to bury this subject now, thanks!

that is uncool. sorry that you had to deal with that.

[lurch]

Linden's worst fear was herself. Her " self" she allowed to become as a result of the abuse from her parents. She accepted the " loveless" as okay. She was unable to develop a normal loving relationship as a result. She gave her love to a autistic boy and then a dead man. Neither reciprocated until TLD...So..in a sense,,( abit of a stretch here) Love was/is Lindens last Dark...Last Mystery..

[native]

I think lots of people enjoyed TLD, myself included. But the last two chapters were a huge letdown because it seemed SRD didn't know how to end the story in a fitting way, which lent weight to the nagging impression he's been making things up as he went along.

[lurch]

I am taken to the question....Is there artistic value to The Metaphor? Do Metaphors succeed on a scale of say.. 1 to 10 by how inclusive, encompassing the metaphor is,.as in the difference between a double or triple entendre' ? .or perhaps by the brilliance of the AH HA! moment when the metaphor is perceived? Like a pun, is there a reverse value of some sort to a Metaphor?..A really bad ,,excessively stretched pun is the best..Maybe a forest for the Trees property of the Metaphor makes it more appreciated?..

I contend TCoTC is loaded with metaphors. I've already suggested the scene in Mt Thunder when the group has to decide between two bad choices...an escape route that is direct, straight forward and easily doable but is an easy trap,,versus a another route that is time consuming which they don't have much of...Only Jerry sees the possibility of a 3rd Choice...That is a great metaphor for the striving of Surrealism...realize that there are choices out there that you haven't even conceived of..

So, we may have to shift our perception here. We may have to exercise our " metaphor " muscles. We may have to massage our Metaphor Vision..We may have to tune our Sensitivity To the wavelength of Metaphor.

There is a " mystery" the unknown quality to metaphor. The question..what is meant by that rises often.. If you look a painting by the early Dali...what is meant by that , can't be helped to be asked. Its all a mystery,,The first step is realizing its all in metaphor,,,a melting clock is a visual metaphor for the subjectivity of Time...TCoTC is written so the metaphor is in the message of the Word..Fascinating how in the Chrons Word and Weird and Weir becomes intermixed,,,as in..Metaphor. levels of meaning or..spheres of meaning and perception.

I think and I know I perceive metaphors thru out TCoTC. Heck,,the use of archaic words is metaphorical in a Time sense...So..there is a beauty, an appreciation, in the author's work of a level or dimension..a extra reality..thats not hidden but not necessarily sticking out like a soar thumb either.

Consider that every character and creature has metaphorical value. Every scene has metaphorical value.Thats a lot of beauty to be perceived. Embrace the Mystery.

[Orlion]

Th subject of this thread resonates with me...Some times I think people forget that they are reading a fantasy series (Jung? Really? To be honest, I ignore all such posts like I would ignore posts placing Freud into the mix )

I was able to enjoy this book. It is also when I finally began to understand why some people do not like it. Anticipation is a deadly thing, particularly with authors like Donaldson who are going to write what they want to and not "write for the fans". Steven Erikson is another example of this. Donaldson ultimately writes for himself, and it so happened that some of the things he wrote resonates with a lot of people. But you can not go back, and the more universal themes of the previous Chronicles (the First being the most universal) are replaced with themes of experience that do not click with as many readers.

Somehow, they clicked with me...who knows why, frankly I should be one of the people hating this series based on my experience...but I'm also a sucker for Time Travel

[Ur Dead]

I liked the whole thing from start to end.
It was a story that took over 30 years to tell.
It had a magic of it's own.
There wasn't any super powered hero's, just just ordinary
people put in place where extraordinary events happen.
There were cause and effect.

and go figure..

if you think you could do better.

Write your own original story.

I might even read it.

SRD wrote a story. Not since Tolkien had there been a series of books that were original in it's conception.
Sure others came out with their own but only after SRD wrote his and broke the barrier and opened a path.

I have enjoy it along the way..
and smelled the roses.

[Iolanthe]

Yeah. Orlion & UrDead

[slickthomas]

I can't believe he got careless, much less so lazy.

I don't think that's what happened. I have two theories (and maybe both are true):

1. He spent too much time on it and lost the magic. He still managed to pull it on occasion (the real world part of ROTE, first half of FR, and the last part of AATE).

2. He was too much on his own and needed a strong editor. There were many tedious segments that could have used tightening. Also, an editor might have jumped on the "too many villians" problem as it was obvious by FR that it existed.

I hope he works on something fresh and we get another Gap. I don't want him to turn into Moorcock who once he started losing it just kept getting worse and worse.

[DrPaul]

I think that a proper appreciation of TLD would require one to (re-)read the entire Chronicles from LFB to TLD in sequence, in a reasonably short space of time (yet not so quickly that one isn't reading carefully and reflecting) to get a real sense of how the Last Chronicles and TLD develop and complete the whole saga. Has anybody done this yet?

[Savor Dam]

I think that a proper appreciation of TLD would require one to (re-)read the entire Chronicles from LFB to TLD in sequence, in a reasonably short space of time (yet not so quickly that one isn't reading carefully and reflecting) to get a real sense of how the Last Chronicles and TLD develop and complete the whole saga. Has anybody done this yet?

Rather a few have...and there is not a consistent opinion from these readers.

Come to Elohimfest next summer and we can hash it out...

[iQuestor]

I think that a proper appreciation of TLD would require one to (re-)read the entire Chronicles from LFB to TLD in sequence, in a reasonably short space of time (yet not so quickly that one isn't reading carefully and reflecting) to get a real sense of how the Last Chronicles and TLD develop and complete the whole saga. Has anybody done this yet?

Rather a few have...and there is not a consistent opinion from these readers.

Come to Elohimfest next summer and we can hash it out...

I did it. I started with LFB back in the summer and went thru the whole series. There was probably a month gap between AATE and TLD.