Ryzel wrote:The way I see it is that the only thing white gold did in TPTP was to destroy the Illearth Stone. It was laughter which defeated Lord Foul. Maybe it was necessary that it was Covenant which did it, but I do not think so.
Perhaps this belongs over in the Foul/Earthpower thread, but it's in response to you here, so... Here's my theory of Foul, and why Covenant was so important.
Foul is an immortal, indestructable being, composed of Despite. This is why he can't be destroyed - If there is a mind in existence, it has some darkness in it. Maybe only a little, buried deep, but it's there. If there is <I>only</I> one mind in existence, he exists. This is why Covenant always told them that they can't get rid of Despite. The higher the level of Despite and Despair in a mind, the greater Foul's essence. The larger the number of minds in pain, the greater his essence. And so he does what he does. He lies, manipulates, antagonizes, etc, to increase the nasty emotions. Since the mind gives him his existence, he can do this from the inside of someone's mind, seeming to be fears, doubts, and all that, and even manifesting as hallucinations.
Since we never saw him possess anyone the way the Ravers do, I don't suppose he can. So I guess he "mastered" the Ravers because they could not feed on him, and he convinced them that he was even better at causing pain in everyone than they were, and so following him would allow them to share in that greater pain. Plus, he gave them the ability to possess others. (Not sure why he wouldn't have that power himself if he could give it to others, or why he <I>didn't</I> use it if he had it.) He was, after all, one of Kevin's Lords, so he must have been able to use Kevin's Lore, as well as the lore of the ur-viles, and probably other lore(s) too.
In the purely mental arena, Foul can be fought by some. The <I>Haruchai</I> and Giants can do this without problem. Unaided, the Ravers can't possess them, and I imagine they can ignore whatever Foul tries to do inside their skulls. Words, of course, would be a laughable weapon against either race. The <I>Haruchai</I> are too disciplined, and the Giants are too happy.
Covenant was able to fight off Foul's Stone-enhanced mental attacks because, as the Creator told him, "You are a man already acquainted with habit and despair - with the Law which both saves and damns. Your knowledge of your illness made you wise." Some exceptional human inhabitants of the Land might be strong enough. Mhoram comes to mind, or course.
But Foul also does things in the physical realm, using the Ravers, the Illearth Stone, whatever lore he may have used, or anything else. Rather than work <I>in</I> the minds of many people, having to continually expend effort so that their misery doesn't cease, he can expend relatively little effort hurting someone in such a way as to cause anguish to <I>many</I> others for a long time to come. When he damaged Pietten, he knew the emotional toll it would take on everyone else for decades to come. He didn't master Korik, Sill, and Doar (seemed more like Stone-hypnosis, but I suppose it could have been a form of possession) because he thought those three could defeat Revelstone, but because he wanted to cause doubt in all <I>Haruchai</I> forever. He had the Ravers possess the Giant brothers because he knew he would so thoroughly enjoy the level of pain that it would cause the rest of the Giants; so much that they would allow their own deaths. And he knew what it would do to anyone else who ever learned their story!
And I've finally gotten to the heart of my reply to you.
Covenant took away Foul's ability to do anything in the physical world. Nothing Foul could do, not the Illearth Stone, not his minions, nothing, could overpower white gold. If not for Covenant, he would have gone on and on. Plus, Covenant contained Foul where they were. Stuck where he was with only his mental powers.
And he was facing a Giant.
True, Despite cannot be entirely eradicated. But his strength is only that of the Despite of the mind he has access to. And in the Purified Foamfollower, that was exceedingly small. And Foamfollower taught the spectres how to do it.
*WHEW* Yeah, maybe I've filled in some gaps for SRD. I'm sure he wouldn't mind.
Ryzel wrote:I disagree with you here. We have no way of knowing how thoroughly the earthpower was tested in the time of the old lords. I agree that Kevin might be relatively untested but I seem to remember that Berek had a LOT of enemies waiting to kill him when he first got the earthpower.
Well, I did say "probably."
We just don't know. In Berek's case, we don't know who was left for him to fight after the Fire-Lions. When the Raver King was killed, did the surviving enemies lose their insanity and become good, or at least not evil, again? Or, since it was such a nasty war, were there so few enemies left that they all ran in fear from this guy who just unleashed such power? Berek might never have come close to being pushed to the edge of despair after he gained enough power to Desecrate.
When <I>turiya</I> and <I>moksha</I> corrupted the Demondim, Loric may or may not have ever thought the end was near. It must have been at least a pretty good fight, though, since he felt the need to make the hugely powerful <I>krill</I>.
Ryzel wrote:This is an interesting factor, what did earthpower need the Staff of Law for? It is said that it supported the law, possibly the fact that you had it made the law less mutable than it had previously been. Just like having a written language makes a language less mutable than having just a spoken language.
<I>Unbelievably</I> good analogy!!!
Ryzel wrote:1. Earthpower is not a stable power, it can change to suit different circumstances. The Elohim seems to be the preferred agents of change in most cases, but sometimes the earthpower "itself" seems to take direct action as with Berek.
Yeah. In ways, maybe the Earthpower is in a state of flux. But let me offer these analogies for Earthpower:
1) <I>Brahman</I> is sort of the Hindu equivalent of God. The definitions that I like best, which I've posted at this site before, are "The irreducible ground of existence. The essence of every thing." & "The eternal, imperishable Absolute. The supreme nondual reality of Vedanta." Everything in all Reality is an expression of Brahman. (I like this analogy, because SRD uses other Hindu, and Buddhist, words in TCTC.)
2) "String Theory" is what I think it's called. The idea is that THE fundamental building blocks of EVERYTHING are these sort of vibrating strings of energy. No substance, just vibrating energy. And the different ways these strings can vibrate, and combine with each other, determine the nature of the quarks that make up protons, neutrons, electrons, photons, etc. (Or maybe the strings make the things that make quarks. The theory isn't complete, and I don't know too much about it anyway.)
3) <I>Every single thing</I> that ever happens with any computer program is ultimately reducable to 0's and 1's. It's all binary. Combinations of the two digits make everything possible on computers.
These things all obey certain laws, but allow anything you can think of.
Ryzel wrote:4. Another point to consider is that Lord Foul never used the Staff of Law himself. This suggests that it might have been resistant to him, i.e. impossible for him to use as he was outside the law.
Prothall had considered along these lines, saying, "perhaps he feared to use a tool not made for his hand."
Ryzel wrote:But while it existed it supported the earthpower and made it impossible for Lord Foul to retrieve the Illearth Stone (which I consider the antithesis of earthpower in the Land). Foul had to get Drool to unearth (pun intended) the stone before he could get it and Drool needed the Staff to do this suggesting that it might be impossible without it.
Could be. I'm remembering Drool blasting away the dirt and rocks, digging for the Stone, but I can't find this anywhere. Maybe I made it up. I figured the Staff was the only thing in the Land that had the power to dig as much as was necessary.
I'm as surprised as you!), let me make this observation. The Earthsight required no lore, before <I>or after</I> the Sunbane. The typical inhabitant of the Land in the 1st Chronicles didn't know any lore, and neither did Covenant. They were all just, as Covenant put it, "attuned" to the Land. But, although neither Covenant nor the Land's inhabitants had it in the 2nd Chronicles, Linden did. Fine, Covenant hadn't had any hurtloam. As in TPTP, his leprosy made him as numb to the Earthsight as physical sensation. But what about the people? Why Linden but not them? Were they taught that it was an evil thing, and told from birth to fight against the ability?
ah... forests... i mourn...