A Last Dark Rewrite

[SkurjMaster]

TheFallen,

Thanks for the intellectual support! I will say (and may do so again) that SRD is, in my opinion, probably the greatest writer in the fantasy genre of the last century (next to Tolkien). Where Tolkien was more creative, SRD is more sophisticated psychologically. Having said that, again SRD missed so many good opportunities that it made the latter half of the LC seem hurried.

In all seriousness though, I will reiterate the call for the 'rewrite.' What should be different? What impact would it have? What characters would it affect? How would it tie in with the ultimate goal of TC and Foul merging?

I will throw one out: Shouldn't Kastenessen have redeemed himself by turning on Foul? Or, at the very least, could he have redeemed himself by reasserting forbidding through Martihir (spelling?)?

Another one: Why create a new Forestal at all? Why not simply bring Wildwood forward? Or have I stumbled on the timeline?

[starkllr]

There are IMHO layers of meaning lying beyond the narrative surface of all the Chrons - and I've largely enjoyed chewing the fat about what SRD's deeper intent is. Having said that, your plea "to read between the lines" is to me sadly an absolute necessity as far as the Last Chrons and particularly TLD goes - because, unlike the 1st and 2nd Chrons, it does not adequately satisfy at the narrative level. Entirely unlike their standard-setting predecessors, one absolutely has to read between the lines to get anything out of the LCs.

That's the key difference and that's where I strongly believe most people's disappointment lies. The 1st and 2nd Chrons satisfied massively at the narrative level, with excellent dramatic pacing, well-crafted and credible plotlines, beautifully realised backdrops and - most important of all - superbly and caringly depicted characters that the reader could not help but emotionally identify with.

I think this is an excellent summary of how I feel about the LC's as well.

The philosophy IS interesting, and SRD has a lot of important things to say, but in the LC's, it's done at the expense of the narrative, and of the world (and characters) he built in the first six books, rather than being said THROUGH those characters and that world. At least, IMHO.

You can see it right from the opening chapters of ROTE (which, I agree, are fantastic). There's a - I'm not sure what the right word is. I don't want to say "careless" because nothing SRD does is that, but I'm not sure how else to convey it.

WHY are Sandy Eastwall and Sheriff Lytton there when Linden is translated to the Land? We never hear another thing about them - not one word. They did not have to be there; the scene would have lost absolutely none of its power, and the changes needed to put them out of the line of fire (and potential range of translation) are minuscule. And as SRD has said, many, many times, he does nothing without a reason,and creates nothing without a purpose.

What was the purpose? Linden's son was under threat, and she herself is in mortal danger - the additional danger to an innocent woman we've only known for four chapters hardly ups the stakes any in that situation, so it can't be that.

And it's not to increase Linden's responsibility or feelings of guilt, because she doesn't spare a single thought for Sandy or the Sheriff the whole rest of the way, even though they are likely dead and her choices were a big factor in putting them where they were (I'm not saying she's to blame, not by any stretch - but I'd imagine that anyone in Linden's position would feel at least some responsibility for their presence and their fate). Considering that we spend the next 1,400 pages or so entirely inside Linden's head, examining her psyche and her doubts and feelings of guilt at extreme length, the absence of any consideration whatsoever about innocent people dying in an event centered around her is really glaring.

And that glaring lack; that setting up of a narrative convention, and then completely ignoring it, is a foreshadowing of what's to come through the remainder of the LC's.

We see it in the almost complete absence of any examination or even consideration of TC's relationship with Roger, and what impact his failure to even try to contact his son in the 10 year between TPTP and TWL might have had (on Roger and on TC as well).

We see it in the near-complete absence of "regular folk" in the Land, and in the way that the Giants are, for the most part, a nondescript group of more-or-less clones.

And we see it in the (to me) SRD's complete disinterest in building any sort of cosmology of the Land, or defining the relationship between the Land and the "real world" - or between life and death, for that matter.

As a completely stand-alone work, the LC's arguably have a lot of merit. But as a part of the larger Chronicles, they fundamentally don't work, because what I think SRD was trying to do was just incompatible with what he did in the six books that came before.

[SkurjMaster]

Starkllr,

Just so nothing is taken away by accidental attribution, the previously quoted text was not mine. It was actually from TheFallen. Sorry.

[starkllr]

Good catch, SkurjMaster. I fixed it.

[Seareach]

I'm not going to get heavily involved in this. I stand by what I'm saying, and the "read between the lines" bit was regarding Lurch's post, not the Chronicles as a whole--I think pointing out this regarding the latter is not needed.

However, TheFallen, I take offense to this: your hero worship comment--none of that going on here and you clearly think you know me better than you really do. In fact, I don't think you know me at all.

And regarding this:

and/or some robust (yet still fair) draft critics with some sense of objectivity

So I'm guessing you've done this kind of thing before--being a draft critic for a novelist who has been writing for as long as SRD has--and know what being a draft "critic" involves and the ins and outs of those kind of professional relationships? If you had, you'd realize sometimes it has nothing to do with lack of "objectivity". If you're going to criticize, make sure you know what you're talking about.

[TheFallen]

My! Prickly...

Seareach, I too am not going to get involved in a futile ping pong match, so I'll end by saying this.

1) Noted that your "read between the lines" was merely intended to point out the already blindingly obvious (and acknowledgedly deliberate) sarcasm within Lurch's "crash-bang-wallop Transformers movie" post, rather than being an exhortation for readers to look deeper than the narrative level within the Chrons. Personally I'd have thought that a recommendation along the lines of the latter would have been a whole heap more relevant, useful and worthwhile, but hey, each to their own...

2) So... you "don't think I know you at all", hmm? That's a faintly bizarre comment, but hey, I'll pick up that ball and run with it. I'll go further - I'm absolutely 900% certain I don't know you at all. It is of course totally self-evident that I don't in any way know anything about you or the slightest thing about your experience and skillsets, any more than you in any way know anything about me or the slightest thing about my experience and skillsets - how would either of us have even the faintest clue? Moreover, I'd wager that neither of us care. However, the simplistic fact that both of us are entirely ignorant regarding the other remains a specific truism which is entirely irrelevant to my generic points.

3) I stand by my opinion that an artist in any medium cannot retain real objectivity about his/her creation - hence an informed 3rd party objective take on whatever it is before release to a wider audience would be a valuable thing for at least consideration by said artist.

4) Therefore I also stand by my comment that SRD would have majorly benefitted from an interested and informed editor - if such an animal still exists - at draft stage of TLD. Or failing that, from one or two robust and knowledgeable critics, whose opinions he was prepared to listen to. The fact that there's a fairly widespread level of disappointment that's been provoked by TLD only goes to underline this point - too many have opined "is that it?" or words to such effect about the novel.

5) In similar vein, I'm well aware of the difference between a draft critic and a proof-reader. If SRD only chose to view (or even possibly, seek/allow) input from anyone who did read through a draft as no more than proof-reading, rather than as well-intentioned objective critique, then exactly as per my post at the bottom of page 1 of this thread, my criticism stands - and it remains sadly laid squarely at the door of the author. On that basis, there's neither need nor reason for any other party to get his/her panties in an outraged knot here, or to come over all defensive - or to take any generic observations as personal, for that matter.

'Nuff said.

[dlbpharmd]

It has been noted before that SRD does have personal readers, and they are members here at the Watch. What may not be well understood is that SRD is notoriously obstinate to these readers' suggestions and criticisms. The onus was on SRD, not his readers.

Perhaps SRD could have benefitted from a Lester del Rey style of editor - someone he would have been contractually obligated to heed. Such editors no longer exist.

[TheFallen]

It has been noted before that SRD does have personal readers, and they are members here at the Watch. What may not be well understood is that SRD is notoriously obstinate to these readers' suggestions and criticisms. The onus was on SRD, not his readers.

...which is pretty much exactly what I said, when I wrote "my criticism stands - and it remains sadly laid squarely at the door of the author."

Perhaps SRD could have benefitted from a Lester del Rey style of editor - someone he would have been contractually obligated to heed. Such editors no longer exist.

...again I suspected as much when I wrote "SRD would have majorly benefitted from an interested and informed editor - if such an animal still exists."

The only two logical possibilities are either A) that SRD's chosen "personal readers" thought that the Last Chrons were perfect in every way - a thing that is frankly too ludicrous to even consider - or B) that SRD wasn't actually interested in taking their 3rd party more objective views into account.

dlb, I'm happy to take you at your clearly informed word that the far, FAR more likely B) scenario is the case, though it does then beg the obvious question...

Why does SRD even bother to have "personal readers" of drafts if he's then not going to bother paying attention to their critiquing input, apart presumably from trivial proof-reading typo stuff?

[lurch]

..fallen...stop digging..you are embarrassing yourself and you don't know it..please..

[TheFallen]

..fallen...stop digging..you are embarrassing yourself and you don't know it..please..

Lurch, my dear fellow... like most of us I suspect, I learned long, long ago that life's too short to give consideration to the judgements and opinions of those who don't have my respect.

So on that basis, if it's all the same to you, until legislation is passed appointing you sole supreme arbiter of what people may or may not discuss or indeed think, I'll carry on exercising that pesky old free will.

Vive la différence... things would be so much more boring without it.

[dlbpharmd]

HLT and I are the "supreme arbiters" in this forum, and we will rightly judge not only what is said but how it is said. You can go on thinking whatever you want.

This thread has been circling the drain for the past couple of days. Locked.

I remind everyone of the Watch rules which may be found in the Announcements forum. Failure to abide by these rules will result in disciplinary action.