My TLD thoughts, and 4 new questions

[thoughtcube]

I finished TLD recently, together with the other books of the last chronicles, I held off on reading any until they were all out. I also did not visit kevinswatch for all those years to avoid inadvertent spoilers But now that I read them, I also read through the forums here. Some great discussions, I learned a lot from what people posted. I also wrote two replies with my thoughts on what I feel are fundamental issues in the last chronicles and TLD in particular,

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=949677#949677

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=949673#949673

Overall I enjoyed the last chronicles, even if not as much as the previous books - which I consider my favorite books of all time (so the last chronicles had a very high bar).

I did however leave the last chronicles with a few unanswered questions, and I don't think I've seen those answered in any of the threads here (sorry if I missed anything). The questions are:

Forbidding: We are told that Caerroil Wildwood cannot just teach forbidding to Linden, it is a matter of 'essence'. The only solution is to have a forestal time-travel, because only forestals partake of that essence. That's reasonable, until the part where Jeremiah faces moksha and learns many many things - including forbidding. And he uses forbidding to hold Foul in place. How could Jeremiah learn forbidding, if it is a matter of essence?

Anele/Jeremiah's possession vulnerability by terrain: Anele and later Jeremiah was possessed by various beings. Foul possessed him when he was on certain grass, Kastenessen when he was on raw dirt (and we have 2 singular events of the Harrow and Covenant possessing him, not sure about the terrain at those times). Also we know that moving them off the grass or dirt will break the possession. It is crucial that Kastenessen requires Anele and Jeremiah to be on dirt in order to possess them, otherwise he can't do it, and I think the same was true of Foul and grass but it was less clear. My question is: WHY dirt, and WHY grass? Foul has no affinity to grass or anything growing, and Kastenessen has no affinity to dirt or soil either. It seems kind of arbitrary. Linden noticed the connection, and I was hoping it would be explained later, but I think it never was?

The last 2 are more minor questions, but still irk me:

Esmer and wild magic: Esmer prevented wild magic by his presence. I was thinking the underlying issue was that Esmer was a creature of utter conflict and turmoil, while wild magic needs a form of certainty, focus and intent to be used, or something like that. So I predicted a scene where despite Esmer, Linden proves able to wield wild magic, showing that she is a rightful white good wielder. But, Esmer's ability to inhibit wild magic was never explained?

The Viles created very human-ey stuff: For such weird alien beings that induce sensory confusion by their very presence, and have no bodies in any sense, the Viles made things like the castle and that ballroom which are very much human, even specific to things a human from a specific culture would recognize or think of (normal stonedownors for example would not imagine such a castle or ballroom). Where did the Viles get such inspiration for their 'art'? It felt out of place. As we entered the Lost Deep, I was sure we would see weird alien stuff that was at least as weird and alien as the Viles themselves. Instead it was human and mundane in its inspiration, even if amazing in execution.

[Cord Hurn]

Concerning forbidding: Linden's only talent with construction involves biological healing which is due in great part to her training, but Jeremiah's talent with construction to produce many different and potent forms of power is part of his essence, so he can be taught forbidding as Linden cannot.

[Cord Hurn]

"But, Esmer's ability to inhibit wild magic was never explained? "

You're right, it never was, but here's a guess: being part merewife, and thus an inheritor of Elohim powers, Esmer learned a variation of the Elohim ability to silence Covenant, with the silencing barrier being shrunken to just being around the ring.

A quote from your statement inspires another guess: "...while wild magic needs a form of certainty, focus and intent to be used"--this may mean by sending nausea to Linden's insides disrupts her ability to focus correctly; Esmer jams her ability to transmit wild magic.

[Cord Hurn]

The Viles: I've wondered if the Viles ever traveled to the land of the materialistic Brathair and were inspired by what they saw.

[Cord Hurn]

Wilder guesses follow.

Fangthane's affinity to rough-edged grass: because it's corrupted or fang-shaped?

Kastenessen's affinity to dirt: because repeatedly wielding Kevin's Dirt from the depths of She Who Must Not Be Named to the Earth's surface gave him an ability to more efficiently channel power through dirt?

[thoughtcube]

Interesting points!

I especially like the possession ideas, I didn't see those connections at all, but now that you mention them they make a lot of sense. The shape of the grass was indeed fang-like, so a good fit for fangthane, and Kastenessen was indeed messing with kevin's dirt around that time. Symbolically those things now seem to fit.

[SleeplessOne]

Anele/Jeremiah's possession vulnerability by terrain: Anele and later Jeremiah was possessed by various beings. Foul possessed him when he was on certain grass, Kastenessen when he was on raw dirt (and we have 2 singular events of the Harrow and Covenant possessing him, not sure about the terrain at those times). Also we know that moving them off the grass or dirt will break the possession. It is crucial that Kastenessen requires Anele and Jeremiah to be on dirt in order to possess them, otherwise he can't do it, and I think the same was true of Foul and grass but it was less clear. My question is: WHY dirt, and WHY grass? Foul has no affinity to grass or anything growing, and Kastenessen has no affinity to dirt or soil either. It seems kind of arbitrary. Linden noticed the connection, and I was hoping it would be explained later, but I think it never was?

The Viles created very human-ey stuff: For such weird alien beings that induce sensory confusion by their very presence, and have no bodies in any sense, the Viles made things like the castle and that ballroom which are very much human, even specific to things a human from a specific culture would recognize or think of (normal stonedownors for example would not imagine such a castle or ballroom). Where did the Viles get such inspiration for their 'art'? It felt out of place. As we entered the Lost Deep, I was sure we would see weird alien stuff that was at least as weird and alien as the Viles themselves. Instead it was human and mundane in its inspiration, even if amazing in execution.

re : Anele's vulnerability, you have a reasonable gripe ..
To me it made sense when Drool Rockworm was able to track Covenant via his non-Land boots in the 1st chronicles; in fact it was clever and different.
SRD appears to have tried to pull off something similar in the LC, but I totally agree thoughtcube, there's something a little arbitrary about it.

as for the Viles, well, I'm with you there also; SRD described these passages very nicely, but there was something somewhat commonplace about the Viles great works; I was going to posit that perhaps these were somewhat aspirational works, reflecting their self-loathing and desire to be something else, but then I (think I) recalled that the works of the Lost Deep were created before the Viles fell into self-despite, and if so that theory is obviously invalidated.
I also really did not like the gimmicky stuff with the Viles talking IN ALL CAPS in FR, that really didn't work for me.

[Zarathustra]

I thought the vulnerability to different surfaces was linked to Anele's own sensitivity to the earth, e.g. his ability to "read" rocks. He had a deep connection through contact that was utilized by Kassy. However, on rock, Anele's own power of connection was sufficient to block out other beings interference, such that Foul or Kass couldn't override the "memories" or "language" of the rocks themselves.

I think the complaint about Esmer is a good one. If he interferes with one's focus--which is necessary to access wild magic--then why doesn't he interfere with any kind of process that requires focus? This would be all lore, I would assume. What kind of lore/magic doesn't require focus? Whether it's the Insequents' or the Ur-viles, I would think by this "rule" Esmer should disrupt any kind of power directed against him. But clearly that wasn't the case, because both the Harrow and the Ur-viles were able to fight him in FR.

Maybe it's just tied to white gold? But then why does it affect the Ardent's power to transport? That was only a "imitation" of wild magic, and had nothing to do with white gold (because the Ardent had none). Thus, we see that Esmer's effect DOES transcend the actual metal itself, and is most likely targeted at the user's ability to concentrate. But then the above question remains: why not other forms of magic, too?

As for the Viles ... just becuase they sense the world differently doesn't mean they wouldn't have similar architectural structures. They would merely perceive them differently, and go about constructing them differently. I thought the watery ballroom was very alien.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

The thought which occurred to me over the weekend was that anything which seemed like a retcon, a "where the heck did this come from?" moment, or something which we had never seen/heard about in The Land before is because when Linden, Covenant, and Jeremiah rewove the fabric of Time they made little mistakes here and there. A moment in the past rewoven slightly differently thus gives rise to something which doesn't align with the past we know.

[wayfriend]

Donald answered the question about Esmer in the GI.

I’m always uncomfortable trying to answer questions that involve “explaining magic”. Over-simplifying the issue: if I could explain it, it wouldn’t be magic. I would be writing science fiction, not fantasy. But in general, magic in “The Chronicles” is an expression of the emotional nature of its wielder. So think of Esmer as an alloy (like white gold), a mixture of elements. (Remember that there’s magic on both sides of his ancestry. The Haruchai are magical--or magic-ful--people in the same sense that the Ranyhyn are magical horses.) But where white gold is a mixture of similar elements, Esmer is a mixture of dissimilar, even contradictory elements. The result is dissonance, interference, static. (OK, I admit that this is a rather sf way to think about the issue. But what the heck, we’re all friends here.) It has a damping effect on the resonances of other alloys. The Staff of Law, on the other hand, is organic; a natural and (in a manner of speaking) single element. Therefore Esmer’s presence won’t interfere with Linden’s ability to use the Staff.

(11/30/2006)

[Zarathustra]

Interesting. So if it would dampen the resonance of other magics that are "alloys," rather than organic and natural, we could ask why the Ur-viles' magic wasn't affected (being neither organic nor natural). Or we could ask how the heck the Ardent's magic was an alloy, and of what two kinds of magic or what two elements.

[Vraith]

Interesting. So if it would dampen the resonance of other magics that are "alloys," rather than organic and natural, we could ask why the Ur-viles' magic wasn't affected (being neither organic nor natural). Or we could ask how the heck the Ardent's magic was an alloy, and of what two kinds of magic or what two elements.

Fun questions that I don't think we can know the answer to with text evidence. [I'd still like, for fun, to know what the "contingent" magic of the Vidik Amir [sp?] was, and never will.]
Sure the Viles/ur-Viles magic wasn't affected...but just cuz it is neither natural nor organic doesn't mean it is necessarily an alloy.


The other is more interesting...I've wanted to know more about it since first mentioned, and wanted BADLY to know since the declaration that it was an "imitation" of WG. [AND...am I imagining/misrecalling, or wasn't it said somewhere that Loric made the krill partly to emulate/resemble WG?]

Heh...but probably that's the SF in me. Cuz why can't we just live with it when an author says "one of these things is not like the others."?
Obviously it CAN ruin things if it is false within the rules of the world created [that would be a REAL example of deus ex machina that folk keep pretending exists in this work but doesn't, whatever its other flaws]...but is that so in THIS case? Does the fact that Esmer's nature interferes with Insequent magic...but not the Staff, nor the ur-Viles...break any fundamental rule? I don't think it does. Like I said somewhere...if the Inseq. had REAL wild magic, or something just as, or nearly as good...well, that's a horse with a killing pigment..

[wayfriend]

"The conjoined powers of the Insequent have made you mighty, but they have not altered the nature of your knowledge. The theurgies by which you bypass distances are a wan mimicry of wild magic." His scorn sounded like despair. "They are impotent in my presence."

Rereading this, it seems plausible that it is the Ardent's magic specifically, and not Insequent magic in general, which is the wan mimicry of wild magic. The Ardent has power through "the conjoined powers" of all Insequent. It strikes me that such conjoined power might be considered an alloy of sorts. The Insequent are so inherently independent and unilateral that, unlike the joint magic of the ur-viles, such conjoining must be highly coerced and, in that way, unnatural. That is, against the nature of the Insequent. So: the Ardent's power was an unnatural mixture of individual Insequent magicks.

However, this wasn't what I imagined on first reading this. My first assumption was that Insequent magic was similar in some more plainer way. That it destroys peace, or that it partakes of the Arch, or that it's wild (hard to control), or something. Which explained nothing at the time and, looking back on it now, doesn't fit with Donaldson's explanation anyway.

What I like about the "conjoined power" idea is that it justifies in many ways why Donaldson included the Ardent, and created the Insequent as he did. It was, among other things, to lead to that moment when Esmer could spring his trap.

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

Suppose that long ago, an Insequent made a ring out of Ranyhyn bone, or had two rings, one silver and one gold. White gold is the hue of bone and the Ranyhyn transcend Time to a degree. Of course silver and gold are the two elements of white gold. So maybe the Insequent mimic wild magic by mimicking white gold somehow? Maybe they found ways to do this with things aside from bones and metal, things like the jewels on the Harrow's clothes or w/e...

[wayfriend]

All things are possible, Mig. But I don't think you'll find much in the text to support the idea. Either the "wan mimicry of wild magic" is explained in the text, or it's not; if it's not, then we are free to imagine whatever we desire.

[PastorChris]

I share your questions, thougtcube. The only one where I can attempt a response is the first.

If we accept that Forbidding is inherently essential, I think Jeremiah learns it this way: Moksha is intimately familiar with Forbidding, being an ancient archfoe of the One Forest and its Forestals. He and his brothers were the target of the Forbidding wrought by the Colossus. I think being the object of forbidding probably means he understands or shares its essence, since it probably is keyed to his. Thus, when Moksha possesses Jeremiah, perhaps allowing the intermingling of their respective essences, Jeremiah is able to lean Forbidding because it has become part of him.

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

@wayfriend, I know. I was really just posting more fanfiction as if it were an argument.

@everyone who's debating the forbidding thing, well, Findail is encoded into the Staff of Law, so there's an Elohim who Jeremiah could've accessed to "learn" forbidding from (with the Raver's help) without being transformed, maybe.

[Vraith]

Hmm...I'm probably going on a re-read soon, and may then be able to answer some things more certainly [or at least with more than loose memory to justify, and I may even change my mind about some things]...
But why did Jerry have to "learn" forbidding?
I don't think he did...what he had to "learn" from the Raver was how, precisely, to express a particular form.
But he HAD it, in his essence...the entirety of his preservation of his own identity in the face of all he was subjected to is a "forbidding." His self in graves IS a forbidding.
His talent is fundamentally tied to forbidding...I mean doors are ways into things...but they are also a way to keep things out.

[TheFallen]

But why did Jerry have to "learn" forbidding?
I don't think he did...

It was obviously narratively vital for Jerry to at least partially master forbidding, if only to delay LF long enough for SWMNBN to appear, add power to and perfect Jerry's forbidding and god-slap the Despiser. If Jerry hadn't made the temporarily successful attempt, LF would have had time to escape past the crumbling Arch of Time.

Jerry was only able to master forbidding after his victory over moksha, so I'm of like mind with PastorChris when he says:-

Moksha is intimately familiar with Forbidding, being an ancient archfoe of the One Forest and its Forestals. He and his brothers were the target of the Forbidding wrought by the Colossus. I think being the object of forbidding probably means he understands or shares its essence, since it probably is keyed to his. Thus, when Moksha possesses Jeremiah, perhaps allowing the intermingling of their respective essences, Jeremiah is able to learn Forbidding because it has become part of him.

In moksha providing enough understanding of the art of forbidding from the perspective of the thing forbidden, to be combined with Jerry's own innate talent for construction - plus the power of the Staff of Law, let's not forget - we have a very similar mirroring of TC's gaining the capacity to repair the world once he's subsumed the lore of LF: LF's understanding of the Arch from the perspective of the thing trapped, to be combined with TC's own innate knowledge of what the whole Arch looks and feels like - plus the power of white gold.

It's only logical to presume that both LF and the ravers have spent eons probing at the methods of construction of their various prisons.

[wayfriend]

In moksha providing enough understanding of the art of forbidding from the perspective of the thing forbidden, to be combined with Jerry's own innate talent for construction - plus the power of the Staff of Law, let's not forget - we have a very similar mirroring of TC's gaining the capacity to repair the world once he's subsumed the lore of LF: LF's understanding of the Arch from the perspective of the thing trapped, to be combined with TC's own innate knowledge of what the whole Arch looks and feels like - plus the power of white gold.

That's how I see it.

My only additional thought is that both Mahrtiir and Jeremiah learned Forbidding (it really needs a capital, I think) by "becoming". It was stated that it can't be learned, but it seems it can be given, as with Mahrtiir, and it can be taken, as with Jeremiah. Given or taken, the common component in both cases is that both became something new - Mahrtiir was transformed by Wildwood, while Jeremiah immured moksha within himself and gained his lore. (I would call this "consume" in the way it is used in the Last Chronicles, except that a remnant of moksha fled at the end. A half-eaten Raver?)