Captain America: The Winter Soldier

[Fist and Faith]

This was damned good! It's great seeing Cap tear the place apart. He's been handled extremely well all along, and he was at his best here. The Winter Soldier was excellent, too. Really, just everything! Heh

This is my 300th topic.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Just saw it a few hours ago in 3D....It WAS awesome!

LOVEd the way they had him smash his way through that building, Very well done.
All the moves were great.
Can't praise it enough.

[Menolly]

I have not seen the first Captain America, although I've seen the other Marvel films. Do I need to see the first one before seeing this one?

[Fist and Faith]

Just saw it a few hours ago in 3D....It WAS awesome!

LOVEd the way they had him smash his way through that building, Very well done.
All the moves were great.
Can't praise it enough.

I was also extremely happy with the ship and Batroc.


It would help with a pretty important aspect of the movie, Menolly, although there's tons to enjoy without understanding the full impact of that. But the first one is also very good, if not as good as this one. Well worth seeing. And it helps set up things from the other movies. Iron Man's father is in it, for example.

[Orlion]

Easily the best Phase 2 Marvel movie.

[I'm Murrin]

Yeah, I saw this a little over a week ago, and it's one of the best superhero films so far from Marvel. Menolly, I think you'd be fine watching it without seeing the first one, though I'd recommend having seen The Avengers.

Fist, you want to fix the title so it doesn't get confused with threads on the first film?

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I was just glad that they had Batroc using savate like the character is supposed to--it is a decent martial art and would translate well onto film if anyone would just do it.

The plot was internally consistent and well thought-out, including even the old maxim from comic books: if you don't see the bloody, lifeless corpse for yourself and confirm the death then they aren't dead.

Still...Cap couldn't pick up the phone and call in some backup? Why didn't they take the uncrackably-encrypted files to Stark, who would have been able to get them access in probably 24 hours or less? What happened to Barton--on some other mission somewhere? Seriously, they didn't even mention Hawkeye, even in passing.

Be aware that ever since Avengers you will now have two epilogues after the main movie has ended. Patience to sit through the credits is a good thing. The man doing the most of the talking during the first epilogue is Baron von Strucker. Why they have "that item" (no, it isn't one of the six the Collector is trying to get) is uncertain but clearly it is going to be useful somehow in Age of Ultron.

Anyway....a very enjoyable movie. Despite having superheroes as the main characters it is really more of a cross between political thriller and action flick. They blended them together nicely.

[I'm Murrin]

You've rmeinded me of some things, Hashi.

The opening sequences on the ship I liked a lot. The whole infiltration team thing was not the usual superhero stuff, and established that Captain America is a different genre from some of the others. But I don't believe they ever established (within the film) why the leader of the "pirates" was an even match for Rogers, did they? At that point I was wondering if the plot was going to involve some shadow organisation in SHIELD creating more Rogers-style super-soldiers, but it never came up.

The USB drive was a MacGuffin, and it just... vanished after they plugged it into the old computer in the secret base. Seems like it just didn't come up at all after Hydra was revealed. That whole bit, too, with the reel-to-reel AI, while I like it for the old pulp sci-fi flavour that fits well in Captain America's stories, felt a bit throwaway: appear, give some important plot information, and then immediately be destroyed, never to be mentioned again.

Finally: The US had "Falcon" flight suits? That they used in a war zone? Why is there only one left, and unused? Why does he have no kind of useful weaponry he can use while in flight? (That might answer the previous question.) Where's this fit in the whole thing of Stark's Iron Man suit being a big deal because of it's single-person flightsuit nature?


As for post-credits scenes, I refuse to sit and wait for them. I can be home by the time the full credits have run, and they're inevitably on Youtube not long after the film's released.

In this case I did wonder who those folks were - the dialogue in the scene implied they were more of Hydra working within SHIELD, but they don't seem to think the released information will expose them. Why they in particular were given Loki's staff, I also wonder.

[Fist and Faith]

I was very happy when I heard Batroc was on the ship. He looked great! I have no idea if that's what savate really looks like, but it was certainly not typical movie martial arts.

But he wasn't a match for Cap, Murrin. Maybe movie Cap tires slightly more easily than comic Cap, and he had just torn up a ship. (The ship is my favorite part of the movie. Awesome.) Batroc is extraordinary, and maybe he just managed to keep a tired Cap on the defensive for several seconds. But Cap caught his breath, put down his shield, and beat Batroc rather handily.

Writing flaw there, btw. He yelled about Widow jeopardizing the safety of the hostages with her own agenda. But he had time to put his shield down, take his mask off, and prove his manhood in a contest he couldn't lose.

[I'm Murrin]

He was still doing his job - she was ignoring communications and off doing something she wasn't supposed to at the time she was meant to be meeting back up with the others. She went off plan.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I really like the comic book Cap Batroc relationship.
Cap always had a hard time beating Batroc because Batroc could avoid trading blows with Cap.
Which....was the way Cap would always beat his stronger opponents.
They respect each other in the comics.

I was kinda hoping there would a touch of that.
Maybe a little banter.
But I still really liked it.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

At that point I was wondering if the plot was going to involve some shadow organisation in SHIELD creating more Rogers-style super-soldiers, but it never came up.

You clearly haven't been watching the TV show, Agents of SHIELD. They enhanced Mike Peterson with Extremis in the first episode, then they found a stabilizing chemical for it, and at this point he is about half machine and is the new Deathlok. It appears that Agent Hand is The Clairvoyant but I don't know if she is part of Pierce's organization.
On side notes here....Cap is going to be upset with Fury for not telling him that Coulson is alive. Not only that, but Heimdall can see Jane Foster from Asgard but either can't see Coulson or isn't telling Thor that he is alive? What's up with that, Heimdall?

Batroc isn't a match for Cap but by then the team was leading the hostages away so taking down the leader was merely icing on the cake. He did well to hold his own for that long, though, so we'll give him some credit for that. Oh, by the way....in the confusion after all that Batroc got away so he may turn up again at some point.

The Falcon suits were probably experimental and there weren't many of them; after Wilson's partner was shot down mid-flight the program might have gotten shut down. The guns were part of the suit...presuming Wilson didn't add those on his own...so it does have some weaponry. It doesn't run on Stark tech, it seems, and besides--the Iron Man suit is an order of magnitude above the Falcon suit so it is clear why it is a big deal. Rhodes' suit, War Machine, is still a unique item and hasn't been duplicated (says the man who hasn't seen Iron Man 3 yet so I could be wrong there). Still.....no one is reverse engineering the upgrades Whiplash put on all the Hammer suits after Iron Man 2? Really?

Baron von Strucker's group is independent of the other group even if they are aware of each other's existence. How his group ties in with Ultron is unknown at this point--we'll have to wait until next year to find out, because I don't think there are any more Marvel movies between now and Avengers 2 other than GotG, and that should only tangentially tie in with Age of Ultron.

There was talk of a Mark Rufflo Hulk movie but nothing has materialized so far. Anyone want a solo Black Widow movie?

[I'm Murrin]

There'd definately be room for a solo Black Widow film following her after the ending of this one. Nothing in production, though, so if they decided to do it now it'd have to fit into an entirely different part of the story they're telling.

I have watched Agents of SHIELD, but I wasn't talking about someone, somewhere doing it, I was saying I felt like that's what they were getting at within this film when they had Rogers encounter someone who was (apparently) close to him in strength. But no, he was something else. Still felt odd that they would add this character with no intention of mentioning him again in the film. Even when things are part of a big series like this, you still need things within the film to actually be relevant to the film they're in.

And yes, Falcon had guns. But there's no way in hell they'd ever be practical for him to use while in flight, and indeed in the film he only ever fires them when he's landed. He spends a significant chunk of the finale just dodging fire until he's needed to help Captain America. Seems like there'd be other weapons more appropriate to his purpose.

My question about the Iron Man suit was not to say the Falcon gear is as good (it's not), it was more that the Iron Man film implies that Stark is not aware of any pre-existing tech for such single person powered flight. Can you believe Stark wouldn't know about the Falcon suits? At all? It's the tiniest thing, but it's just what I was thinking when it came up.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Batroc would be great in a Hawkeye or Black Widow film, perhaps as the main muscle hired by some other bad guy. *shrug*

If Stark didn't know about Falcon suits before he certainly knows about them now; it would logical for him to upgrade them, if requested. Of course, everyone knows a lot about SHIELD now, presuming they have Internet access.

[I'm Murrin]

Don't disagree there. I'm just looking at this film in itself.

Chekhov's gun: You have Captain America run into a guy who manages to stand toe-to-toe with him in act one but gets away, he better show up again before the end. Or at least get a passing mention. If this was an episodic thing, where you know there'll be another episode next week which continues the same story, having someone show up once then disappear is fine - you know he'll be back. But these films have to work as single entities.

I'm not a Marvel comics reader - I don't know that this guy is a known character with a history. To people like me he's some guy that the film makes look important then forgets about.


(I'll reiterate just to be clear: This is possibly Marvel's best film to date.)

[Menolly]

To be clear: I've seen all of the Ironman films. I've seen both Thor's, I've seen The Avengers. I have not seen Hulk, nor the original Captain America.

I do watch Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

And I do not follow the comics.

This film will make sense with that background? I might be able to get a DVD of the first Captain America from the library...

[Hashi Lebwohl]

(I'll reiterate just to be clear: This is possibly Marvel's best film to date.)

I don't know about "best" but it was pretty damned good. Superhero movies are starting to "one up" themselves, increasing in quality of both plot and action. Eventually, the possibility exists that we might even get one of high enough quality that it becomes a contender for an Oscar for either Best Motion Picture or Best Screenplay.

This film will make sense with that background?

Yes. The only things you will miss by not seeing the first Captain America are Hugo Weaving's Red Skull and Tommy Lee Jones' deadpan one-liners. Note: the Red Skull did not die. He was translated elsewhere by the Tesseract, yes, but he didn't actually die.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Menolly, you also won't get the very touching moment with Steve and the old woman in the nursing home.
I'd recommend seeing the 1st movie before the second just for that reason.
(But I'm a sentimental softy).

[finn]

Hashi, Hawkeye was given a subtle nod courtesy of Natasha's choker which is a small silver arrow.

[Fist and Faith]

I really hope Mockingbird doesn't show up. Lol