Counterfactuals.

[peter]

Hmmm. Horrim Carabals question re What would have happened if Elena had gotten hold of the white gold ring is the first of what cold be a rich seam of 'counterfactual' speculation re Chrons 1 and 2. Answering the questions raised by them is clearly a weighty buisness, but in this post I am more interested in the questions themselves. As a 'list lover' in all things, can we come up between us with 10 counterfactual questions for me to think about in the bath. I'm going to take the most obvious one of all (other than "Was Thomas Covenant's presence absolutely necessary for the defeat of Foul in the Land) by asking

1. What would have been the consequenses of Covenant not having raped Lena?

[Cambo]

Great idea for a thread, Peter!

My question: "What if Korik, Sill and Doar had left the fragment of the Illearth Stone alone, and not challenged the Despiser?"

[stonemaybe]

3. If all had gone to SRD's original plan (trust me, I heard him admit it was in the first draught) and Thomas and Elena had done the deed, what would their child have contributed to The Chronicles?

[Orlion]

What if Revelstone fell?(I'm thinking during tPtP, but earlier could also be interesting )

[peter]

Woahh! Great ideas on all counts - thinking matereal for hours of wallowing Have to mention Stonemaybe's as awkward to think about in the nth degree but yes! SRD at times could 'pile it on' (always in the best of ways) to the point of painfulness. The infamous 'Elena - Covenant' scene was simultaneously both wrong and erotically charged. I'm glad in this case he spared us the what could only be increasing levels of discomfiture that would have resulted from a continuation...... As to the consequences of 'the act' - the mind boggles!

[Seeker of Truth]

5. What if Saltheart Foamfollower did not stop to give Covenant a lift up the river to Revelstone?

and.....

6. What if the Bloodguard did not renounce their vow?

[Soarback Grayhare]

Old thread, but interesting what-ifs.

My question, allowing the first chrons to proceed to the end:

7) What if Foamfollower had not survived Hotash Slay?

[Kaos Arcanna]

3. If all had gone to SRD's original plan (trust me, I heard him admit it was in the first draught) and Thomas and Elena had done the deed, what would their child have contributed to The Chronicles?

Elena didn't live long enough to bear a child so I think even if they had been intimate there wouldn't have been that consequence. Though I can't imagine anything good coming from such a union ... and said child would have been around 8 at the time of The Power that Preserves and dead for centuries by the time of The Wounded Land.

[Kaos Arcanna]

And here's mine:


1. What if the Creator had brought Foamfollower to our Earth following the end of The Power That Preserves.

(I once had a dream about that very concept ...)

[DrPaul]

And here's mine:


1. What if the Creator had brought Foamfollower to our Earth following the end of The Power That Preserves.

(I once had a dream about that very concept ...)

That would have settled, in triplicate, the question about the reality or otherwise of the Land - with all that that would imply for the meaning of the story. One also imagines that Sherriff Barton Lytton would have had a conniption when Foamfollower appeared in the main street of the town.

[DrPaul]

What if Revelstone fell?(I'm thinking during tPtP, but earlier could also be interesting )

This raises two prior questions:

1. What if Mhoram had not attacked Satansfist? As we know it was Mhoram's attack on Satansfist that distracted Elena and enabled Triock to strike the ring from her hand, which enabled Covenant to survive the crisis at the Colossus and go on to defeat Foul, but which also led to the destruction of the Staff of Law.

2. What if Mhoram had been slain by Satansfist, rather than vice versa? Had Satansfist survived that encounter, would he and his army have been able to beat down the resistance of Revelstone and slay all its people before Covenant was able to defeat Foul? We know that the ur-viles took command of the army after Satansfist was slain but that Revelstone was able to resist for the subsequent few days until Foul was defeated and Foul's Creche and the Illearth Stone were destroyed. Given that Mhoram was hors de combat after slaying Satansfist due to his own injuries sustained in the fight, the leadership of the defence of Revelstone would have been in the same hands (Quaan, Amatin, Trevor, Lloerya, etc.) had Mhoram been slain. Would one Giant-Raver armed with the Illearth Stone have made sufficient difference to bring Revelstone's resistance down that much more quickly?

[DrPaul]

The other point to remember is that Revelstone "fell", in a sense, when samadhi Sheol achieved through stealth (in the backstory to TWL) what he wasn't able to achieve through force in TPTP.

[DrPaul]

1. What would have been the consequenses of Covenant not having raped Lena?

Well, the obvious ones are that: (a) Elena would not have been born; (b) Lena, Triock, Atiaran and Trell would not have had their lives blighted and would have behaved differently; (c) Covenant would not have bound the Ranyhyn to visit Lena annually, with all that followed from that in terms of Elena's formation as a person. That's already fraught with complex possibilities. In that scenario, would Atiaran have embarked on the series of actions that led to the summoning of Hile Troy, for example?

However, the most important consequence, but perhaps not the easiest one to be definite about, would have been in terms of how Covenant's Unbelief, and his conception of his moral obligations (or absence thereof) in the Land, would have developed had he not raped Lena.

Then again, perhaps the previous paragraph puts the cart before the horse. Would Covenant have raped Lena had it not been for his Unbelief? In a sense the central theme of the book is the difference between Covenant's abominable behaviour, at the start of the story, towards a woman that he does not believe is real, and his courageous struggle at the end of it on behalf of a Land and its inhabitants that he is still not convinced is real.

[peter]

He has found beauty and value at the end that exists irrespective of whether the Land exists or not - hence [as I have been reminded many upon many times in these pages] the question of the Lands reality or otherwise fades into insignificance.

At the start however [while accepting the interesting question of whether he would still have raped Lena had he believed the Land real] I don't believe his Unbelief provides him with a 'get out of jail free' card for his actions. In fact I don't even believe in his Unbeleif. Covenant at this stage is not fixed in Unbelief [he never is]; he is rather locked in a desparate struggle - and one that is killing him - to reconcile the impossibilities of his position. It is an 'overspill' into madness that results in his ravaging of Lena, not a reasoned 'none of this is real so I may as well have a bit of fun while I am here' train of thought [incidentally, even had he believed the Land unreal, his actions would *still* be deplorable and merit our loathing of them].

I'm in a re-read if 1C. at the moment and I've never been the best one at figuring out what in the Chrons is 'contingent' upon what went on before. If we take all the repurcussions of TC's rape of Lena, eg the summoning of Troy, the breaking of the Law of Death by Elena, Trell's enacting of a mini-ROD in Revelstone in TPTP, can we fing anything that directly effects [in terms of actual 'cause and effect'] that impinges on what finally happened at the end of TPTP. Certainly every thing that preceeds this end has effect in bringing TC mentally to the place he needed to be in to confront Foul - but can the same be said physically.

[In answer to the above I can only see that had Troy not been summoned, perhaps FleshHarrowers army would have prevailed in TIW, but aside from that [sticking strictly to the first Chrons, I see very little impact [physically] of the rape, Elena, Blood of the Earth, breaking of the Law of Death story arc on the end result. nb That's not to say I don't love that particular 'twist and turn' of the story - I do, in fact I think it's my favorite thing, seeing how beauty and good result on occasion from even the most brutal of beginnings.]

[Kaos Arcanna]

1. What would have been the consequenses of Covenant not having raped Lena?

Well, the obvious ones are that: (a) Elena would not have been born; (b) Lena, Triock, Atiaran and Trell would not have had their lives blighted and would have behaved differently; (c) Covenant would not have bound the Ranyhyn to visit Lena annually, with all that followed from that in terms of Elena's formation as a person. That's already fraught with complex possibilities. In that scenario, would Atiaran have embarked on the series of actions that led to the summoning of Hile Troy, for example?

However, the most important consequence, but perhaps not the easiest one to be definite about, would have been in terms of how Covenant's Unbelief, and his conception of his moral obligations (or absence thereof) in the Land, would have developed had he not raped Lena.

Then again, perhaps the previous paragraph puts the cart before the horse. Would Covenant have raped Lena had it not been for his Unbelief? In a sense the central theme of the book is the difference between Covenant's abominable behaviour, at the start of the story, towards a woman that he does not believe is real, and his courageous struggle at the end of it on behalf of a Land and its inhabitants that he is still not convinced is real.

If Covenant had not raped Lena, would he have seduced her? I think she was already pretty infatuated with him and it wouldn't have taken that much effort.

If he hadn't done that, I could see Lena following Atirian and Covenant to Revlstone ... possibly dying in the Celebration of Spring slaughter which could have had the same effect of Atirian blaming him for her death and blighting the lives of Atirian, Trell, and Triock ...

Though without Elena as High Lord, would Mhoram have been the High Lord upon Covenant's return? If he had been, I am not sure he would have given Covenant the Krill or followed Amok.

[Zarathustra]

I guess I don't understand the point of this thread. Shouldn't it be, "Counterfictionals?" It's often interesting to wonder how reality would have been different given a different set of facts; that way we can weigh the relative importance of world events and try to understand history's causal factors. But we're not dealing with facts here. We're dealing with entirely imaginary plot points. To wonder how a work of fiction would have been different--especially if you take away the crucial moments that drive the story--seems like an exercise in futility. The answer is: it would have been different, most likely worse, and probably wouldn't have worked as a story at all. You might as well ask what would have happened if Bilbo didn't find the ring. Well, there would be no Lord of the Rings.

Or, it would have been largely the same, and the author simply would have taken a different route to get there. Maybe Covenant would have raped Triock. Or kicked Foamfollower overboard and stolen his boat. The point is that Donaldson needed him to do something that expressed his inner Despiser, so that it would have been a 'real' possibility that he could damn the Land (and himself). When the author could have literally written anything, there is not much point in speculation. We have no criteria to judge our speculations, because nothing in the books *had* to happen. Reality would have real consequences to a change in historical facts. Cause and effect means something here. But in fiction, the only thing that matters is the author's vision. You guys are treating it as if it were real.

There's a reason why Donaldson hated these kinds of questions in the GI. If you really want to know how these books might have been different, you just have to read another author. That's how different they can be.

Now, if the question was, "Would the story have been better if the author had done X," then that's a question I could understand asking. And it's pretty easy to answer: the story would have been less shocking, less interesting, and have less tension/momentum if TC had not raped Lena.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

Or kicked Foamfollower overboard and stolen his boat.

Good luck with that.

Covenant: *kicks*
Foamy: Huh? Did someone poke at my arse?
Covenant: *wailing in pain* Look at what your hard, oaken-muscled buttcheeks did to my foot! This is all your fault! *shows Foamy a mangled lump with bone splinters sticking out of it*

[peter]

C'mon Z. man - say what you think!

[Zarathustra]

Or kicked Foamfollower overboard and stolen his boat.

Good luck with that.

Covenant: *kicks*
Foamy: Huh? Did someone poke at my arse?
Covenant: *wailing in pain* Look at what your hard, oaken-muscled buttcheeks did to my foot! This is all your fault! *shows Foamy a mangled lump with bone splinters sticking out of it*

Well, there was one point where the got really tired and asked Covenant to help him lift his diamondraught. That would have been the time to strike. Maybe he could have grabbed the Gildenlode tiller, triggering his ring, and sent FF flying out the boat.

Of course, if successful, the boat would have immediately started flowing backwards toward Mt Thunder and Drool Rockworm ... delivering the ring to Drool, most likely, and forcing the climax to happen much sooner.

Damnit, now you guys have got me doing it.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

I am not a guy so clearly Peter is to be blamed for everything.

Furthermore while I came to moon over Foamy's perfectly muscled butt, I'm not entirely sure what "it" Z is doing.