Whither the Watch?

[bossk]

I heard so many lively and interesting discussions of Donaldson's work at the E'fest, I definitely feel like the energy is still there. This forum has induced people to travel around the world to meet in person - that's quite a catalyst, and it seems to speak of an energy that can be maintained.

I've never been a particularly "active" Watcher, so I'm not sure I'm a good spokesperson for keeping it going, but I definitely value the very high level of discourse that can be found here. In that way, it's almost antithetical to the general vibe of the internet, which seems to be both our blessing and our curse.

To a degree, the forum is dependent on SRD's next move. As U says, all of us who have been with the books for decades have aged along with SRD. I don't see a lot of kids getting into something like this at our current stage of technological overload. So if SRD's next book is interesting, we might find new members. If not, we might just become a pompous old gasbag commune. I can live with that, I suppose.

In fact, I just wrote the most pompous old gasbaggy thing I could have.

[Sorus]

I would very much prefer to think of the Watch as being in transition. I've considered this place my home on teh intarwebz for somewhere in the neighborhood of 14 years. From the very first, we've thought of the Watch as the best place on the web, full of genuinely nice people. I love all you guys (although admittedly, some Watchers are harder to love than others ) and I count a lot of you as friends in real life. I would hate to lose this place where we all met.

I agree with transition being the right word. Change is inevitable.

We're going through the same thing in my WoW guild - having been around for 10 years and seeing things change a lot, including overall declining membership numbers. We had a booth at a gaming convention a couple of weeks ago, and encountered a lot of people who 'used to play'.

I'm not sure if there's anything similar we could do - short of ambushing people in bookstores and dragging them off to our secret lair.

I don't see the end of the Chrons being a reason to end meet-ups, or to end discussion. It's what brought us together, but that friendship opened the door to other things we have in common.

In short, I believe we will endure for as long as people continue posting, and while the numbers aren't what they used to be, we're far from extinct.

[Cail]

I haven't touched a Donaldson book in 3 or 4 years, and have no intention of touching one any time soon. That said, I'm still here and reasonably active in The Hegemony and The Waymeet.

It matters not whether SRD writes another book. This has become a social forum that periodically discusses certain books. It seems to me that we could radically reduce the number of book-related forums by scrapping all the Group Reading forums and merge the content into the series forums and merging all the TC novels into a single forum. Similarly, the entire Library can be condensed into a single forum.

But ultimately, the number of forums is immaterial. The board will lumber on until it doesn't.

[aliantha]

Yeah, I think the consensus at E-fest was that the Watch has morphed into a social forum that sometimes focuses on SRD's books.

I don't know that we need to recruit new members so much as remind the old members of what we have to offer here. Although there's nothing wrong with new blood.

[Zarathustra]

Perhaps ironically, we've been kicking around the idea of a separate forum for discussing all of the Chrons, for those who have read all of the books and would like to discuss overarching themes without having to use spoiler tags. Would it make sense to have, under the SRD Discussion forum, one subforum for the individual Chrons (with two sub-subforums, one for the 1st and 2nd Chrons and one for the final Chrons) and one for all 10 books? Just putting that out there. I think at this point, we could really use a free-discussion zone for all 10 books.

That's good idea. It would definitely make discussion easier, which might encourage more discussion. However, many of us who have been around the longest have perhaps said everything we have to say on the matter.

But the issue is not really the organization of the forum, but rather what U mentioned above: SRD is done with the Chronicles, and many fans are disappointed with the results. (It doesn't help that any time this disappointment is voiced, it is met with another version of the reader being the problem.)

I think different people want different things out of the Watch. Some are looking for stimulating discussions, while others are looking for diversions, and others are looking for community/friends, and others are looking for a platform to spread the "gospel of Donaldson" (according to their own "revelation") while others are looking for a platform to vent, etc.

Is the Watch a website, or a community? If it's a community, then it's nothing more than cliques that automatically exclude those outside the cliques (apparently, there's quite a lot of Facebook activity? I've never been on Facebook, but I hear about it from time to time). If the Watch is just a website about an author, then it lives or dies by the interest in the author, and not by the relationships between its members.

So, in my opinion, both of these dynamics (website or a community) are driving the death of the Watch, as well as the tension between them. If a new member manages to sustain interest in an author who has disappointed him or her, and joins a fan site despite this disappointment, and then is met with disapproval from the "inner circle" as making illegitimate contributions merely by voicing opinions, then why stay? The drama may not be worth it.

[Savor Dam]

Serendipitously, I just saw and responded to a post in the Thomas Covenant Discussion Board on FB, looking for a place to discuss the Gap series. Since Cord Hurn seems to be bringing new life to the dissections in "Ancillary Documentation", it was the perfect time to pimp the Watch to some new people who may not be aware that we are here...

~edit: This resulted in a new member, "Dolfineer."

[aliantha]

Way to go, SD!

Z, I hear what you're saying about cliques. There are 3 FB groups for the Watch that I'm aware of:

1. A secret group called Watchers that Menolly started; the most recent post before mine today was on February 17th.

2. Also called Watchers, it's a closed group (don't ask me the difference between secret and closed groups -- I suspect it has to do with how groups turn up in a FB search) started by bossk after the last E-fest; rdhopeca had the last post in there on July 15th.

3. "Hello, I'm <name>, it's been 45 seconds since I've visited Kevin's Watch" is an open group also created by Menolly; I posted the last message in there, on July 10th.

Watchers have certainly connected individually on FB and often post on each other's timelines, but anyone who's worried that Watchers have moved the Watch to FB may rest assured that's not the case.

(There's also an "Ask Esmer" group, but it has very few members and Es hasn't answered any questions there in a long time.)

[Savor Dam]

Talk of Watchers moving the Watch (or parts thereof) elsewhere certainly prompts memories of how Gravin Threndor was a vital and active forum a few years ago, and has withered away to near-inactivity. This is due in great measure to its moderator (Goatkiller, not Xar) moving all the most active games off from the Watch to his private forum.

Bad mod. Bad, bad mod. No doughnut!

[Vader]

I used to be quite active in the galley, but this subforum is pretty dead as well. It used to be more active before I joined, so I figured I might be at fault and bored people away with my perhaps patronizing posts and pretentious pics. It might have come across as bragging and killed the fun for everyone. That's why I cut back a little. If this should be the case, I apologize.

[Savor Dam]

No, Vader, we miss your food porn. It was inspiring!

Nice jambalaya, by the way.

[Sorus]

I enjoy your pics, though I am not very active in the galley. Never apologize for talent.

I don't often comment on 'art' threads because I don't have much to contribute. Maybe I should, as our creative folks are sometimes underappreciated (at least publicly).

[Ananda]

Would picking a few active, popular writers to dedicate forum space to and then advertising that a bit help create more traffic? As many have said, SRD is done with the chronicles and the last series was disappointing to a lot of people who like his other work. A broader appeal than just SRD books might liven things a bit.

Vader, I think your food porn is enjoyable.

[MsMary]

Hear, hear!

I've maintained for years that there are two many forums here. I argued the same thing at Ahira's Hangar.

It makes it harder to know where to go and harder for everyone to interact when you have so many choices of forum in which to post.

Some of the community boards I've been involved in that have been the most successful have no more than two to four forums in the index. Several that I'm actively involved in have basically a forum with all-round shmoozing, and a specialized forum dedicated to popular culture or to the interests that brought people to the site. Maybe one or two others that are a lot more inactive than the main two.

So, for example, that would work out here to a shmoozing forum (like General Discussion) and an SRD forum. Because of our history and archives here at Kevin's Watch, we might want more forums than that, but I would vote for a drastic paring down of choices.

I wouldn't be quite so drastic. I'd get rid of the TC movie and TC art forums, as stated. I'd suggest merging General SRD Discussion with Other Works. A new thought to me is promoting General Discussion (one of the most active forums) up toward the top of the index, instead of below all the Donaldson forums. Then you scrap the Library in favour of a Gen Lit forum, moved into the spot that currently has Gen Disc.

And close the Watchy Awards forum, they're not going to happen and with how dead the site is these days they're just highlighting the fact.

So, maybe you'd have this:

The Watch
--Announcements & Suggestions
--General Discussion
--Q&A
--The Summonsing
SRD Forums
--First and Second Chrons
--Last Chrons
----(Subforums)
--The Gap
--Mordant's Need
--Other Works and General SRD Discussion
The Multifariam
--General F/SF Discussion
--General Literature Discussion
--The Hall of Gifts
--The Hegemony
----(Subforums)
--The Waymeet
----(Subforums)
Gravin Threndor
--Games
----(Subforums)
--Archive
----(Subforums)

Oh, I wasn't suggesting paring down to as small as some of the examples I gave. But I do think it would help to have fewer choices. It would make it feel less inactive. There's still a fair number regularly posting, but when the posting is in so many forums, it feels very quiet.

[MsMary]

We might also think about an off-Watch archive for some of the older threads in the really huge forums like GenDisc and the Tank. I know we're at least one BBS version behind, and one of the primary reasons we haven't updated is that the database is so humongous that it would be a pain to migrate.

I definitely think this is a good idea. The forum is unwieldy as is and there are many threads that haven't been posted in or looked at in years. If we could move enough into an archive to make it possible to upgrade the forum software, that would go a long way toward making the forum a lot more functional and user friendly, in my opinion.

[MsMary]

It matters not whether SRD writes another book. This has become a social forum that periodically discusses certain books. It seems to me that we could radically reduce the number of book-related forums by scrapping all the Group Reading forums and merge the content into the series forums and merging all the TC novels into a single forum. Similarly, the entire Library can be condensed into a single forum.

Yeah, I think the consensus at E-fest was that the Watch has morphed into a social forum that sometimes focuses on SRD's books.

I don't know that we need to recruit new members so much as remind the old members of what we have to offer here. Although there's nothing wrong with new blood.

IME, this is a pretty common pattern with forums that are based on a certain fandom. People gather initially around the interest that brought them here - in this case, SRD - and then develop relationships around other discussions of interest. And longtime members generally are involved more in those other discussions, as they get to know each other. Meanwhile, fans of the original author who brought us here will still stumble on the forum and start or participate in discussions on the books; they may or may not stay for the other discussions.

I don't think this is a bad thing, and I think we have enough of a core group to keep discussions going. But I do think it will help to trim down and streamline the forum with fewer options of where to post.

[SerScot]

Murrin,

I keep advocating for the number of forums on the index to be reduced. My theory goes thusly: Merging forums together makes low activity less spread out, which makes the forum appear less quiet, and if it looks like there's discussion going on, it encourages people to take part.

This. A thousand times this. Too many subforum mean that there are tons of interesting threads most never see.

[kvickie]

I've been re-reading the original chronicles and would love to ask some questions, but I'm always afraid my questions have already been asked and I don't know where to look. I am a bit timid about starting a new thread.

[SerScot]

Kvickie,

On other book boards there are a plethora of repeated topics. I say go for it.

[Fist and Faith]

I've been re-reading the original chronicles and would love to ask some questions, but I'm always afraid my questions have already been asked and I don't know where to look. I am a bit timid about starting a new thread.

Check out the Search function at the top, under the pretty picture. It works pretty well. I only ever need to use the first field for keywords, and choose Posts or Topics in the bottom left of the page. However, starting a new thread is more than acceptable. Feel free.

I used to be quite active in the galley, but this subforum is pretty dead as well. It used to be more active before I joined, so I figured I might be at fault and bored people away with my perhaps patronizing posts and pretentious pics. It might have come across as bragging and killed the fun for everyone. That's why I cut back a little. If this should be the case, I apologize.

You just made up for any bragging with that alliteration.

The board will lumber on until it doesn't.

Board. Lumber. Nice.

[lorin]

I like the idea of the archive of old posts. Or perhaps there would be a 'place' to put some of the really good older posts that might spark peoples interest. Is there a way to do a forum of old posts that can be made more visible. I would be willing to audit old posts and populate a thread. (does that make any sense?)

When Danlo did a blast about the fest we got some old timers showing up. Maybe a monthly newsletter blast.

Speaking of the mods......ahem......it would be nice to hear from a few of them once in a while. Just pop in, look around and say hi. (aside from the few that post regularly) You know who you are. Maybe drop a pm to the newbies giving a personal hello.