Couldn't finish. He lost me.

[ussusimiel]

Hmmm.
I thought the bifurcated Haruchai [the tribe and the outcasts...I'm tempted to include Cail in there with Brinn, Bannor, and Stave] were the definition of development, outcomes, and integrity.

I don't disagree about the exemplars: Bannor, Brinn, Cail (and Stave) as defining and developing the Haruchai. Each one made the Haruchai feel more human. But, remember we were always working away from the extremity of the Bloodguard. The Haruchai themselves in the 1st and 2nd Chrons were always, for me, presented as harsh but passionately human. I don't even argue that how SRD presents the Masters is logically inconsistent with what has gone before, my main is thrust is that it doesn't feel consistent or right.

The feel of the Haruchai in the LCs is distinctly different and added to that there is the superhuman elements like accelerated healing (Ceer didn't seem to have this ability), refusal of treatment and not needing sleep. These feel like unnecessary additions to what we knew about the Haruchai. We knew that they were hardy unflinching laconic warriors, we didn't know that they were semi-superhuman, semi-fascist assholes in need of salvation.

I actively hated the way Brinn was presented in TLD. I felt that it was a travesty. Instead of a sage with the wisdom of the ages, we got someone who didn't even speak like a Haruchai. Every word out of his mouth felt wrong. Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! He talked like a character out of a soap opera (except for using the word 'simony' ).

I'll admit that the scene involving Clyme and Branyl was moving in its own appallingly graphic way, but even that, the gory dismemberment of a Haruchai felt like desperation on SRD's part.

I don't see the human/superhuman as you do.
Stave at the fane is a perfect example. He was not capable of that because he was superhuman. It was because he was becoming more human. That's the purpose of our named line. The tribe as a whole wasn't a matter of human/superhuman. It was a matter of being INhuman.

I do not doubt that Stave was becoming more human, but the act itself was superhuman. It feels inconsistent. Bannor became more human and thus more seemed more physically frail. Cail similarly. Stave's development actually seems the reverse of this, and the slaughter of the Haruchai isn't consistent with it either. If they were less inhuman (and thus more human) should they not have become more capable of superhuman feats (like Stave)?

I think I understand the line of thought about the tribe and the named line, but it still doesn't feel right to me. I didn't want the Haruchai to be transformed into humans, I wanted the Haruchai to become transformed Haruchai (and thus whatever that means for our own projected human traits).

[[I don't quite go with slaughtered in the sense I think you mean it...as if they were wasted. They were much more like the cannon than cannon-fodder...to the extent they WERE slaughtered/fodder, it would not have been necessary if they hadn't, mistakenly and intentionally, made sure that there was no one else with the slightest hope or capacity for action.]]

Again, I can agree with the logical necessity for this at that stage of the plot as it had developed, but I can't help feel that it's a travesty of what the Haruchai are. A travesty rather than a transformation. The Haruchai haven't been transformed into something more human, they have been reduced to mere humanity. You can say that they find the strength in weakness; that allowing themselves to be slaughtered was the only possible way for them to achieve their objective. But in that they are no different from any other human tribe except, perhaps, the number of bodies that needed to be sacrificed. If I want to read about slaughter like that I can read accounts of the Somme or the Russian defence of Stalingrad. I learn about the limits of human bravery, but it tells me nothing about the Haruchai and thus, I feel, adds nothing new about SRD's story (in fact it risks devaluing or debasing something that was fantastically valuable and precious).

As I have said upthread, I have my own guesses as to why SRD may have chosen to do this, and maybe I'll ask him to find out if I'm right

u.

BTW, Vraith and Z (and others): I know you won't be at the 'Fest, is there any question you'd like to ask SRD. Maybe when I've got through my own I might get to ask him an additional couple!

[Vraith]

u.
I may get back to this. I hope I remember to and feel the patience for a long post.
But...there are a lot of legitimate and illegitimate criticism that I agree with or not [including whether they're legitimate or not].
On this thing, though:
The Har. story line...it is just perfect to me. In part BECAUSE I hated what the Masters were.

On the inhuman thing, I think I meant it differently than you took it [which won't make you like it better, I don't think...unfortunately].
From the moment of the Vow...they were inhuman. They'd been heading that way anyway. But that was the pivot point that ensured that ONLY someone like Stave could ever save them.

[ussusimiel]

I may get back to this. I hope I remember to and feel the patience for a long post.

I look forward to it. Obviously I only get worked up about it because I care. I also appreciate that others have a different view of the whole LCs and it is not my intention to try and change their mind, or imply that their experience or views are not valid.

Right from the start of the ROTE I couldn't stomach the way the Haruchai were presented and it never really got any better (except for Stave). It's really only now after fully digesting TLD that I'm beginning to grasp just how deeply put out I was. The Haruchai are just one example. I was just as upset about the Giants, the Sandgorgons, the Cavewights, Foul, and even the feckin' Lurker. Basically, I was put out by how SRD was treating his creation. He seemed to be consciously taking the shine off it and removing its glory (almost as if he was trying to trash it ).

On the inhuman thing, I think I meant it differently than you took it [which won't make you like it better, I don't think...unfortunately].
From the moment of the Vow...they were inhuman. They'd been heading that way anyway. But that was the pivot point that ensured that ONLY someone like Stave could ever save them.

Again, I can't disagree with this, but I would say that only the Bloodguard felt inhuman. Remember when Tull was telling his story, he was still not fully capable of controlling his emotion. The ending of the Vow was supposed to have taught the Haruchai something. Bannor had learnt something, which he passed on to the rest of the tribe. Brinn's victory against the Guardian was supposed to be the apotheosis of the Haruchai. The pinnacle of achievement that allows an easing. Cail's experience showed that flexibility had advantages.

What I couldn't swallow is that a casual comment by Covenant is later spun out into this all encompassing authoritarian system. (It's a bit too much like one of Asimov's 3 Laws stories, or the Singularity.) The Haruchai are not robots/computers, they are exceptional, if flawed, human beings. The combined learning from Bannor, Cail and Brinn should have meant that Covenant's injuction could never have been misinterpreted like it was. It should have meant that they learnt where hubris led them. Instead they do the exact opposite and double the hubris quotient!!!

I think if SRD needed a group like this he should have simply created them from scratch, the same way he created the Clave (with super characters like Memla) and a fully worked out and consistent rationale. I'd have been happier to see this group going through its necessary learning experiences than have to watch the Haruchai being made to look like mechanistic dopes.

u.

[Endymion9]

Several people have mentioned taking the shine off. Doesn't it seem like authors do that from time to time? I always get saddened by it. I felt like it happened in this case. It happened when Ursula LeGuin started revisiting Earthsea. And it happened when Orson Scott Card decided to make Ender Wiggins totally irrelevant in his revisited series. I never like it and usually never finish the second visits, when they are of this nature.

[Ananda]

Hmmm.
I thought the bifurcated Haruchai [the tribe and the outcasts...I'm tempted to include Cail in there with Brinn, Bannor, and Stave] were the definition of development, outcomes, and integrity.

I don't disagree about the exemplars: Bannor, Brinn, Cail (and Stave) as defining and developing the Haruchai. Each one made the Haruchai feel more human. But, remember we were always working away from the extremity of the Bloodguard. The Haruchai themselves in the 1st and 2nd Chrons were always, for me, presented as harsh but passionately human. I don't even argue that how SRD presents the Masters is logically inconsistent with what has gone before, my main is thrust is that it doesn't feel consistent or right.

I took the haruchai as as reflection of TCs extremism and lost humanity. In the first serial, he had the obsessive VSE thing going. He was sleepless, stubborn, emotionally repressed and extreme in his carrying out of this part of him, inspired by, I think it was, the dancer lady in the lepersarium who was so beautiful and then destroyed herself. The haruchai were the same sleepless, stubborn, emotionally repressed beings inspired by Kevin who was so beautiful and then became the Landwaster. Both TC and the haruchai were extremely unnatural and pathetic in their way. The haruchai were not some strong heroes, but broken people just like TC was. By the end, TC learns some lesson as do the haruchai.

In the second serial, TC was slightly different. A bit more adrift in some ways a bit more casual in his extremism, but still a stubborn, judgmental extremist. So were the haruchai of this serial. Again, TC goes through some changes and the haruchai are there with him as well.

In the final serial, TC has been a 'Master' from the arch of time. He is still an extremist, still stubborn, still obnoxious. He clings to his need for being a leper (even though Linden can cure it) and the masters have their self-mutilated humbled. Both are unnecessary to a less extremist personality type, but TC and the haruchai seem to need them because it fits their pathology and, maybe, path of self therapy and recovery.

I agree that the end of the third serial doesn't feel like the patient and his reflection were particularly cured or had regained their 'humanity' or so. Or, maybe that's al one can ever hope for anyway- another step.

[DrPaul]

Ananda, I'm not sure that you're exactly right in your comparison of TC with the Haruchai, but I think you could be generally right. This is an interesting idea.

[IrrationalSanity]

Interesting Ananda, and lest we forget, Elena expressed the melded essences of TC and the haruchai (Bannor) in her marrowmeld.

[NomNomNom]

I thought the LC was fantastic, all the way up until the Worm was suddenly somehow led to sleep by its favorite, previously helpless victims (no idea what changed to allow this to happen). Other than the shocking lack of continuity at the end, the LC totally justified itself and lived up to the standards of the last two series. As all of them do, they had a slllllooowwwwwwww beginning... but once they get going they get GOING.

The battle scenes got a little tired in TLD... and I kind of saw SWMNBN's "smiting" of Lord Foul coming.

Which is okay. I think I was sort of supposed to see that coming. And I can forgive lots of battle scenes in a fantasy novel. The only thing that bothers me is the incongruity of the relationship between the Worm and the Elohim.

Was very pleased with the LC but also totally baffled by the ending. WTF.

[Wildling]

I thought the LC was fantastic, all the way up until the Worm was suddenly somehow led to sleep by its favorite, previously helpless victims (no idea what changed to allow this to happen). Other than the shocking lack of continuity at the end, the LC totally justified itself and lived up to the standards of the last two series. As all of them do, they had a slllllooowwwwwwww beginning... but once they get going they get GOING.

The battle scenes got a little tired in TLD... and I kind of saw SWMNBN's "smiting" of Lord Foul coming.

Which is okay. I think I was sort of supposed to see that coming. And I can forgive lots of battle scenes in a fantasy novel. The only thing that bothers me is the incongruity of the relationship between the Worm and the Elohim.

Was very pleased with the LC but also totally baffled by the ending. WTF.

I thought the thing with the Worm and the Elohim was that they couldn't get it to go to sleep, but once it was asleep they could keep it pacified. So, once it had eaten it's fill and gotten the worm equivalent of Thanksgiving turkey tired, the Elohim could step in, get it to lay down and nap for a few million more years.

[wayfriend]

I thought the thing with the Worm and the Elohim was that they couldn't get it to go to sleep, but once it was asleep they could keep it pacified. So, once it had eaten it's fill and gotten the worm equivalent of Thanksgiving turkey tired, the Elohim could step in, get it to lay down and nap for a few million more years.

Yes, Wilding. Pacifying the Worm after it ate Elohim and drank Earthblood would be an entirely different thing than before it drank Earthblood. We know that the Worm grows "gravid" when it is full.

Also, I do not believe that the Elohim alone pacified the Worm. I believe that they assisted C+L+J in this, but could not have done it alone.

“We who were preserved from the Worm have given our aid, though our diminishment has been grievous. Chiefly we have concerned ourselves with guiding the Worm’s return to its proper slumber. Doing so, we have assisted in the restoration of the One Tree to its full leaf and bloom. Yet these were lesser tasks gladly undertaken. The greatest deeds were yours, Timewarden, and yours, Wildwielder, and also yours, Chosen-son. Your achievements transcend us."

The Elohim have only guided and assisted. C+L+J did the great deeds.

And so, while the story may have some inconsistencies, I don't think that this is one of them. Of course, if the author had written more about this, it probably would have been less ambiguous.

[Edit] Note that Infelice may have suggested that returning the Worm to slumber was a possibility back in Fatal Revenant.

"Done? She has roused the Worm of the World's End. Such magicks must be answered. Because of her madness and folly, every Elohim will be devoured."

The fact that there is any possible "answer" at all suggests that the Worm can be un-roused somehow. Although here it seems that Infelice is suggesting that the Elohim must be devoured to achieve this. However, I am speculating a bit here, this may not be what it means at all.

[aTOMiC]

I myself have not finished reading TLD. I have the book but have only gotten through the first couple of chapters.

I have experienced this feeling before. Usually with music/bands etc.

There have been been several bands that I really enjoyed when they were just starting out. There was a freshness and energy that I found engaging and fun. Later as said band matured and found success they moved away from the substance and style of their early years to embrace more sophisticated, less energetic music and so doing moved away from what made me a fan.

This is what I believe happened with SRD and it is not to HIS detriment but to mine as he has evolved as a writer and I still cling to the appeal of his earlier works.

I'm that guy at a concert that groans when a band decides to play a NEW song when all I want to hear is the tried an true classics. I'm guilty but its an honest reaction that I can't help.

One day soon I will finish TLD and will feel a sense of completion but I am not sure I'm going to feel satisfied.

[hurtloam]

I thoroughly enjoyed LC as a story. How could anyone not enjoy the throbbing, pulsating, heartwrenching tale of the company's narrow escape from the Lost Deep, with SWMNBN breathing down their necks? Or shudder in awed horror at Elena's self-sacrifice? Or Covenant's confrontation with his ex-wife, and his own sins?

I don't have a problem with the handling of the Haruchai. To me, their position as Masters is the logical outcome of their own intransigent logic applied to their experiences with Kevin, Elena, and the corruption of their own vow as the Bloodguard. Stave explains this in great detail in TROTE. Also, they are left to their own devices here, whereas previously, they were the servants of first the Lords and then of Covenant. Along the way, we learn of the stuck emotional place of humiliation in which they dwell and the reason for that. Also, they are not "slaughtered" in Mt. Thunder; they sell their lives dearly while killing vastly larger numbers of Cavewights, who are physically formidable beings themselves. They are not diminished in my eyes; they are redeemed.

I do have a problem with some of the hackneyed plot devices, especially the Ardent's magic being a pale echo of wild magic and thus inoperative in Esmer's presence. Without that, I must admit, there never would be the awesome sequence of the chase, and Linden would never be forced to confront the depths of her self-loathing reified as SWMNBN. So this device is necessary for the story, and also explains Covenant's ability to move the group through space using wild magic (since the Ardent's ability to do similar feats is an echo of wild magic). Still, it doesn't follow from anything that came before. It's just sprung on us de novo.

My biggest problem, though, is the short shrift given to most of the characters. We never really get to know any of the Giants, with the possible exception of Grueburn; whereas in the 2nd Chrons I felt highly sympathetic towards Honninscrave, The First, Seadreamer, and Mistweave. But of course, none of them quite takes the place of Foamfollower. Moreover, people who seem like a vital part of the story get killed off -- I'm referring to Liand and Anele. Especially Liand. He is developing into another Sumner or greater, and then he gets killed in the most pointless manner. We also never get to see how Pahni suddenly becomes so devoted to Bhapa as her Manethrall, even though earlier she practically has to drag him with her to Revelstone. I kind of miss how I was made to feel sympathetic towards just about everyone EXCEPT Covenant in the 1st Chrons (well, except the baddies also). Mhoram, Elena, Lena, Trell, Atiaran, Hile Troy, Foamfollower, the Unfettered One in Morinmoss, Amatin, Hyrim, even Triock.

And of course, there's the short shrift given to the "how" of the saving of the world. Only the saving of the world. It doesn't matter now that the author's made his point. Contrast that with the lengthy description of Linden's healing of the Land from the Sunbane. And I've already described the conundrum I have with Foul being a part of Covenant but also part of the Creator, yet the Creator isn't integrated into Covenant. I would have had them let Foul out only to be taken in by the Creator, rather than Covenant. But then, I guess SRD gave that away in that interview prior to writing TLC, which, fortunately, I hadn't heard of until after finishing the books.

[IrrationalSanity]

And of course, there's the short shrift given to the "how" of the saving of the world. Only the saving of the world. It doesn't matter now that the author's made his point. Contrast that with the lengthy description of Linden's healing of the Land from the Sunbane.

I'm reminded of this comic strip panel...

[hurtloam]

Irrational Sanity:

How the heck could I forget Pitchwife?? He's my favorite of all the Giants in the 2nd Chrons.

I have a theory about diverging evolutionary paths among the main characters. Covenant's path seems to be all self-directed. Sure, he is given all kinds of lessons and aid, especially in the first two books, but they are mainly lessons in the consequences of his actions. He has to learn from them himself; he has to learn to love the Land, he has to learn to use power, and the paradox of acting out of his feelings for a Land he doesn't "believe" in. It's the same in the ensuing series. He is given aid, but he has to find in himself a new way to defeat Lord Foul. And again in the LC; he is resurrected, but not completely. He himself has to finish the job by sealing up the gaps in his own brain that take him away from the present. He himself has to retake his power, ultimately retaking and using his ring, and he himself has to integrate Foul. It always comes down to him and Foul at the end.

Linden's path is different. She is utterly dependent on others giving her what she needs to succeed. Her path is to learn to trust them, to open enough to allow them to do it. In the 2nd Chrons, she is almost entirely the victim until the very end. The victim of her sudden translation, of the Sunbane, of Samadhi, of her own health-sense in the presence of horror. In order for her to come into her own, she has to be given what she needs. Only in Andelain is she finally given a feeling for the true beauty of the Land without the Sunbane. In Covenant's love for her, she is given love and through that finds the ability to love. Finally she is given the ring and the Staff through the self sacrifice of Vain and Findail (albeit unwilling for the latter), and only then finds the power to heal the Land.

In the LC, Linden has come past victimhood. She is a force to be reckoned with, wielding great powers, taking on agency, protecting her friends. Yet she realizes that she is not enough as it is. She needs her son restored to her. She needs to bring him out of his autistic trance. She needs her Thomas restored as well. Not only to save the world while she saves her son, but to be her lover. Only once she has all this is she able to unclench the bonds around her heart and become ready to confront SWMNBN. But even then, Linden still needs all kinds of help -- from Stave to get her to the Lost Deep, from Elena's soul to understand how the lost women can be freed, from She Herself to understand what She needs, from Emereau Vrai to enable the Demondim spawn to give it to Her, and from the ur-Viles and Waynhim themselves. As She is a reflection of Linden's despair, She also cannot free Herself on her own, but once freed and restored, transforms into a great benevolent power, taking back Her own power from Foul before leaving. Thus it makes perfect sense that Linden does NOT integrate She into herself; there's no need to, just as there's no need for Covenant to integrate the Creator (even though I think the Creator sprang from Covenant's psyche just as did Foul, or the Creator did and then Foul sprang from Him).

I would summarize it by saying that Covenant's path is self-recovery and actualization, while Linden's is opening to love and be loved. "Redemption through the sacrifices of others," I believe is how SRD put it. That may be oversimplying a bit, both have some aspects of each other's paths mixed in, but the main thrust, I feel, is as I've described it.

Jeremiah, of course has his own path; he has to grow up quickly after breaking out of his mental prison at age 15. The Haruchai have their own path, with Stave as the pioneer, followed later by Branl. The other Haruchai don't go that far into self-examination, but they do go so far as to acknowledge the insufficiency of their Mastery, to acknowledge the necessity of Earthpower, and to begin a new Council of Lords.

[MsMary]

hurtloam, my daughter said the same thing about feeling we never got to know the giants. They didn't have the kind of distinctive personalities that the giants in the 1st and 2nd Chronicles had.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

We never really get to know any of the Giants, with the possible exception of Grueburn;

And how would you describe your verdict?

I inquired SRD about the lack of backstories and physical attributes. His reply about the lack of space and mainly requiring a large fighting force in the LC's did not satisfy me. All those paragraps where the names of the Giantesses become re-re-repeated could have instead been filled with small descriptions in the lines of "A grim scowl murked Bluntfist's square face, as she brushed strands of sweaty, silvery hair out of her eyes--", "Jeremiah felt a strange heat in his groin as he stared at Stonemage, slimmer and more graceful than the rest of warriors, toss off her kirtle and descend into the stream to splash around--", "Grueburn spat a string of oaths as she tugged small branches from her wild tangle of curls--", etc.

Only during TLD some individuality trickled into the troop outside Team RimeFrost: the foolhardiness of Bulk Biceps who is so butch even her arm responds to a masculine pronoun, Kindwind's darkness, and so forth. A shame this did not commence earlier.

[Eggthang]

I'm with hurtloam. The integration of Covenant / Foul is a logical conclusion to the whole 10 volume arc. Whatever SRD may have said in interviews or discussion it also preserves the essential paradox. I am reminded of what Tamarantha said iearly in LFB (my emphasis" : "Perhaps [the Creator] found Despite itself beside him, misguiding his hand. Or perhaps he saw the harm in himself. IT DOES NOT MATTER ... he wrestled with Despite, either within him or without, and in his fury he cast the Despiser down"

[Orlion]

I'm with hurtloam. The integration of Covenant / Foul is a logical conclusion to the whole 10 volume arc. Whatever SRD may have said in interviews or discussion it also preserves the essential paradox. I am reminded of what Tamarantha said iearly in LFB (my emphasis" : "Perhaps [the Creator] found Despite itself beside him, misguiding his hand. Or perhaps he saw the harm in himself. IT DOES NOT MATTER ... he wrestled with Despite, either within him or without, and in his fury he cast the Despiser down"

Good find.

Also, since Donaldson likes to view fantasy as a sort of "externalization of internal conflict", once Covenant resolved said conflict, not much point in keeping it external.

Though that interpretation is a bit too meta for my tastes.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Regarding some earlier posts about the Haruchai being "superhuman", there was a scene in WGW where one was killed casually by a Grim flake hitting him in the head. TC or Linden commented on how they had never seen one die so effortlessly before.

So there is some precedent to them dying easy if the situation comes up.

I really didn't like the Haruchai in the LC, I'm sure that was by design. There were just miserable people. There was a lot of potential for greatness but I'll leave that to fan fiction. lol

Also the fact that Brinn spoke differently was the point, it showed how he changed. The emotion written in a few paragraphs about he felt towards TC spoke volumes to me. I loved it.

The Giants were just throwaway characters to me I'm sad to say. I made no effort to get to know them while reading and when I was down saw that I didn't miss anything.


All in all I liked the LC.
I think upon future rereads I'll like it more and more.

What I think it desperately needed was an Appendix like in the LotR.
Timelines and Land history would have made me very happy.
But SRD is on record as saying that will never be, that he doesn't even write thinking that way. Whatever he needs for the story is what he writes.

[hurtloam]

We never really get to know any of the Giants, with the possible exception of Grueburn;

And how would you describe your verdict?

I inquired SRD about the lack of backstories and physical attributes. His reply about the lack of space and mainly requiring a large fighting force in the LC's did not satisfy me. All those paragraps where the names of the Giantesses become re-re-repeated could have instead been filled with small descriptions in the lines of "A grim scowl murked Bluntfist's square face, as she brushed strands of sweaty, silvery hair out of her eyes--", "Jeremiah felt a strange heat in his groin as he stared at Stonemage, slimmer and more graceful than the rest of warriors, toss off her kirtle and descend into the stream to splash around--", "Grueburn spat a string of oaths as she tugged small branches from her wild tangle of curls--", etc.

Only during TLD some individuality trickled into the troop outside Team RimeFrost: the foolhardiness of Bulk Biceps who is so butch even her arm responds to a masculine pronoun, Kindwind's darkness, and so forth. A shame this did not commence earlier.

Ugh, I confused my Swordmainnir. That says something, in itself, about how much of an impression the Giants in the LC made on me as opposed to those in the earlier series. I meant to say, with the possible exception of Rime Coldspray. I hope I got that right -- she's the leader of the group and the one who trained Exalt Widenedworld and inadvertently inflicted the wound that turned him into Lostson Longwrath. We get to know something of her in her regret as she tells the story. Otherwise, most of the Giants are interchangeable, even in their jibing one another and their dark humor.

Oh by the way, I like your part about Jeremiah feeling the heat in his groin seeing the Giant women bathing. Heck, all of a sudden he's a teenage boy with all the hormones of one (though it might turn out he's gay). I have this fan fiction fantasy that Jeremiah eventually marries a Giant. Why not? The old Lords lived for centuries. Kevin was High Lord for over a thousand years. With the knowledge he got from moksha and Kevin's wards, Jeremiah certainly could have the lifetime of a Giant, and he could make himself strong enough to handle playing with one as well. Giants may serve on the new Council, and Jeremiah is a good candidate eventually for High Lord.