Question about Amok

[rillinlure]

I've read the Chronicles and Second Chronicles several times, and every time something new snags my attention. This time it is a question concerning Amok... Possibly this has been discussed many times, maybe even settled. If that's the case, forgive my newbie ignorance. lol

Considering Amok's personality, attitude, knowledge, and his basic "job" in general... Could it be possible that he might have been one of the Elohim Appointed? I know it says he was created by Kevin to be the Seventh Ward/Way to the Seventh Ward. It was never stated, however, where Kevin learned the lore to create a living being. Even the Viles, and later their various spawn, had to perform "genetic" experiments over thousands of years in order to create the "perfection" of Vain. So where did Kevin get the lore and the material to create a living being?

The only idea that comes to mind is that possibly one of the Elohim was Appointed to this task, becoming Amok. His answers regarding his name and purpose greatly resemble what we find out about the Elohim in TOT. Except that he more greatly resembles the version of the Elohim regarded in the Giantish tales told before the Search journeys to Elemesnedene. Playful, lighthearted, knowledge and mastery of lore unknown and unknowable to mortals... Who but the Elohim would have known of the Earthblood in the first place?

Of course, this is only my personal questioning... As I said, forgive me if this has been worn into the ground previously.

[Fist and Faith]

To quote Amok:

"Do I live?"

It's difficult to tell how much he did that wasn't simply programmed into him by Kevin. Maybe Kevin even programmed the ability to feel joy, which Amok surely did.

But here's another bizarre thought: Maybe Amok is the result of a Command that Kevin made after drinking the EarthBlood. Maybe he figured this Command was safe enough, or worth the risk. Maybe he thought about it for months, figuring out how Amok should respond to various questions and situations, and allowing him to travel and interact with others elsewhere until the krill was brought to life.

I'm pretty skeptical of the Elohim idea though, since Findail didn't mention that when he told us about the other Appointed from the past. I don't see why he would have felt the need to hide that knowledge.

[Durris]

Judging from Findail's ways otherwise, if Amok had been an Appointed, Findail would have lost no chance to reproach the humans with the fact--these beings insufficiently aware, grateful, or worthy of all the Elohim's sacrifices throughout time.

[Guest]

Amok was the "doorkeeper" to the Seventh Ward. He was "created" by Kevin. He was a product of Lore not Earthpower, which is what the Elohim are, Earthpower incarnate. I liken Amok to the Gaurdian of the One Tree. Created for a single purpose, and when that purpose was completed, they too are complete. Berek created the Gaurdian to ward the One Tree. Kevin created Amok to ward Damelon's Door and the Earth Blood. The Elohim just are, like the Earthblood, and the One Tree...they are Earthpower.

The Colossus, which is an Appointed, is also Earthpower, which makes it different than Amok or the Gaurdian, because they are Lore. No one "created" the Colossus, the Appointed just "became" the Colossus. Make sense?? Sigh, well, I know what I'm trying to say... LOL

[Furls Fire]

the "guest" was me, darn cookies again.

[Wonderer]

I have to agree with Furl on this one.Amok was created by Kevin to be a door and a guide,how Kevin created him we may never know.We do know that the old Lords had a greater command of earthpower than the new Lords because they were not restricted by any vow of peace.Kevin and company had greater abilities to tap into that power and so could create beings like Amok.
I also think that based on Findail's behavior that had Amok been Elohim he would have never given Elena the power of command after all that would ultimately put the fate of the earth in the hands of an unreliable human.

[matrixman]

Looks like the "Amok as Elohim" idea is on shaky ground, based on all the good points made. I think it would be underestimating Kevin to assume he couldn't create a being like Amok. Like Wonderer said, the Old Lords had a greater command of the Earthpower than the new Lords, and Kevin was the most Earthpowerful Lord the Land had ever seen. That has to count for something.

Sorry, rillinlure. Hope you don't feel that we're ganging up on you. Go check out the great "Dissecting The Land" forum for more rants and ravings on Amok. He's a popular dude: we love talking about him!

As for Fist's thought that Amok might be the result of a Command given by Kevin after drinking the Earthblood: man, that is definitely bizarre...but interesting. I guess the Bloodguard would have witnessed that, too, huh?

[Fist and Faith]

Fire,
The Guardian of the One Tree was "set" there by Berek, we have no idea if Berek created him. There's been much discussion of ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol's nature, and I'm not convinced of anything. But it's possible that he is Haruchai, that Berek met him "upon the edge of the Earth, at the end of time," and asked him to guard the One Tree. And, being predisposed to taking on tasks like this, he agreed.

And my opinion, based on not enough information to argue the point too strenously, is that Amok is Earthpower, just as the Elohim are, but, since he was created by Kevin's use of Lore, he is quite different from the Elohim.

As for Fist's thought that Amok might be the result of a Command given by Kevin after drinking the Earthblood: man, that is definitely bizarre...but interesting. I guess the Bloodguard would have witnessed that, too, huh?

Interesting point. Since Bannor and Morin were the first Bloodguard there, it would have to have been after Kevin ordered the Bloodguard to the safety of the mountains, before the Ritual.

[rillinlure]

Sorry, rillinlure. Hope you don't feel that we're ganging up on you.

Oh not at all! That's the reason I posted it here, to get others' opinions. I know I don't quite catch everything everytime I read a story, especially one as powerful as the Chronicles. So I like to throw out my ideas and see what comes of it. You have all made great points, though. Still, it would be interesting to find out eventually exactly what Amok was and how he came to be.

Also, comparing him to Findail... um... well let's not forget that the Giants of old held the Elohim in an entirely different regard. It was noted many times that the Elohim of the era of the Search were not the same Elohim met by past visitations. The darkness of Foul and the Sunbane had already begun to infect them. *coughChantcough* We have only the old Giantish tales to give us any clue as to what the Elohim once were. That's what sparked my theory. Oh well, back the drawing board. lol!

[amanibhavam]

I seem to recall that the Bloodguards answer when Covenant questions them, that "High Lord Kevin made no sojourns to Melenkurion Skyweir", or something to hat effect; so I do not think that Amok is a result of an EarthCommand. Kevin must have been a very skilled and wise man, his lore deep. I think if Linden would've met Amok she would've seen the same that she saw in Vain: pure structure, without life.

[rillinlure]

What strikes me as a bit odd is the vague similarity between how Findail and Amok were "caught". Hile Troy's "Earth Sight" (for lack of a better word) that allowed him to see though he was blind helped him to catch Amok in Revelwood. He kept seeing the distortion moving from place to place and caught it. Seadreamer's Earth Sight (Seadreamer also being "handicapped" by being mute) allowed him to be the only person, other than Vain, who could "see" Findail in the foremast of Starfare's Gem. Linden's health sense was really no different than that which the inhabitants of the Land of Covenant's first visits shared, therefore she couldn't see Findail, just as no one could see Amok when he faded from sight. It's little similarities such as these which spawned my original theory. Then again, it could only be a similarity wrought to further enforce Covenant's belief that he was reliving his Dead, that he was in essence reliving his first visits to the Land, with a chance to do things right this time. Who knows? lol

[danlo]

The way I look at it Amok was appearing from someplace entirely different-either from Kevin's entrapment, travels or another dimension. Findail, while able (like any other Elohim) to do "deep travel", was required to be aware of the journey to the Isle of the One Tree-so he didn't go anywhere, he just became invisible. Troy saw almost too well and recognized space-time distortion. Whether Vain could actually see Findail or not he was aware of his 'compliment's' presence, wherever it may be.

[Durris]

rillinlure wrote:

Hile Troy's "Earth Sight" (for lack of a better word) that allowed him to see though he was blind helped him to catch Amok in Revelwood. He kept seeing the distortion moving from place to place and caught it. Seadreamer's Earth Sight (Seadreamer also being "handicapped" by being mute) allowed him to be the only person, other than Vain, who could "see" Findail in the foremast of Starfare's Gem. Linden's health sense was really no different than that which the inhabitants of the Land of Covenant's first visits shared, therefore she couldn't see Findail, just as no one could see Amok when he faded from sight.

Wow, I hadn't noticed those parallels before. I like the way you think!!

[dlbpharmd]

Linden's health sense was really no different than that which the inhabitants of the Land of Covenant's first visits shared, therefore she couldn't see Findail, just as no one could see Amok when he faded from sight.

Linden's percipience was similar to the TC's in the 1st Chronicles only in the fact that they both could easily sense evil - the "rightness or wrongness" of something. But Linden's health sense extended much deeper than anyone in the history of the Land. She could project her consciousness outside of her body into another's. For example, during TC's second relapse at Crystal Stonedown, she was able to keep his vital signs stable using only her mental ability, until Hollian was able to work on him the following morning. Her almost telepathic ability also allowed her to

Spoiler

possess others, as she did with TC on more than 1 occaision.

IMO - the ordinary inhabitants of the Land did not have health sense on the level of LA (or TC for that matter.) For instance, at Soaring Woodhelvin in LFB, Jehannum stayed among the people there for some time, with only the children shying away from him initially. However the Lords, ostensibly due to their training, were able to spot Ravers quickly.

[Fist and Faith]

Hile Troy's "Earth Sight" (for lack of a better word) that allowed him to see though he was blind helped him to catch Amok in Revelwood. He kept seeing the distortion moving from place to place and caught it. Seadreamer's Earth Sight (Seadreamer also being "handicapped" by being mute) allowed him to be the only person, other than Vain, who could "see" Findail in the foremast of Starfare's Gem. Linden's health sense was really no different than that which the inhabitants of the Land of Covenant's first visits shared, therefore she couldn't see Findail, just as no one could see Amok when he faded from sight.

Wow, I hadn't noticed those parallels before. I like the way you think!!

I was gonna say! Nice connection!

I seem to recall that the Bloodguards answer when Covenant questions them, that "High Lord Kevin made no sojourns to Melenkurion Skyweir", or something to hat effect; so I do not think that Amok is a result of an EarthCommand. Kevin must have been a very skilled and wise man, his lore deep. I think if Linden would've met Amok she would've seen the same that she saw in Vain: pure structure, without life.

Without any evidence, I choose to believe otherwise. I do not think that Kevin programmed Amok to show such joy when racing the Ranyhyn, or to say:

"Ah, Kevin! Life is sweet, and I have lived so short a time! Must I pass away?"

I think Amok actually felt these things; I think Kevin actually created a self-aware being. Maybe it's easier to give awareness than to program in answers to every possible question, and responses to every possible situation.

[Guest]

But Linden's health sense extended much deeper than anyone in the history of the Land. She could project her consciousness outside of her body into another's. For example, during TC's second relapse at Crystal Stonedown, she was able to keep his vital signs stable using only her mental ability, until Hollian was able to work on him the following morning. Her almost telepathic ability also allowed her to

Spoiler

possess others, as she did with TC on more than 1 occaision.

IMO - the ordinary inhabitants of the Land did not have health sense on the level of LA (or TC for that matter.) For instance, at Soaring Woodhelvin in LFB, Jehannum stayed among the people there for some time, with only the children shying away from him initially. However the Lords, ostensibly due to their training, were able to spot Ravers quickly.

OK, I give you that, but don't forget the Oath of Peace. All the inhabitants of the Land had previously sworn the Oath, which would obviously prevent them from doing such things as Linden was able to do. Anyone caught doing such things would automatically be considered a Raver unless and until proven otherwise. Linden, however, swore no Oath, and the Oath was entirely forgotten by the time of Linden's arrival alongside Covenant. This could be the sole reason why she is able to do things that others couldn't. Don't forget, the Oath prevented the Lords from doing so many things that Kevin was able to do. Who's to say this wasn't one of them?

[rillinlure]

Oopsy, that guest was me. I just had to reformat and forgot to sign back in.

[Wonderer]

I have to agree with Fist and Faith,that Amok was able to have a sense of joy at the sight of the Ranyhyn and also to know remorse at the shortness of his life.He laments while standing in earthroot that very fact and also expresses his sense of loss as tears stream down his face at the prospect of his end,he also staggers at pain inflicted on him as the cords of being snap.I think Kevin by virtue of his lore was able to create a being as close the the Elohim as was possibe,after all Amok was the pure form of eathpower bound only by the power of his maker's command sentient in every way and free in every way other than to command his own fate as the Elohim can.
Let's face it the Oath of Peace limited the people of the land in any number of things and their misunderstanding of true power and it's purpose ultimately led the the start of the Sunbane.

[Fist and Faith]

My theory is that Amok is Earthpower. Just a chunk of pure Earthpower that Kevin was able to give shape and sentience, and, of course, a good amount of programming.

Furls Fire, however, believes otherwise, as you might gather from her post. As we were arguing... er, discussing it last night, the understanding I think I got of it is that Amok is, basically, pure thought. Kevin used his Lore, and therefore Earthpower, to give Amok the ability to, as it were, step out of is head. Maybe like Athena coming out of Zeus' head? Or the way a child's imaginary friend becomes real in movies and tv shows. Anyway, Kevin probably spent weeks and months coming up with every quality that Amok had. When he had every detail worked out, he concentrated on Amok, performed whatever ritual, and Amok appeared.

Did I get that right Fire?

Either way, no matter how Kevin made Amok, it's astonishing that he couldn't come up with a way to defeat Foul. He should have programmed Amok to attack Foul until the end of the Arch of Time. That should have kept Foul busy!

[Guest]

Ummm....for the most part you did. I said I thought that Amok was a manifestion of Kevin's Lore, or some such thing...and I wasn't arguing with you...you were arguing with me...hehehe