Atheism and Spirituality

[Fist and Faith]

The problem with Lady Revel is she's so damned quiet.

I highly doubt that any kind of organized religion is close to hitting the nail on the head regarding how we are here and who is in charge.

I agree. However, in a different sense, I believe ALL organized religions hit the nail RIGHT on the head - for those who believe them. Despite lots of similarities, we are all different, and will achieve our respective enlightenments in different ways. One type of Christianity works for one person, another type for another, while yet another person feels best with some type of Hinduism. Here's two quotes I absolutely love, and have quoted before. Both are by Eknath Easwaran. The first is from his introduction to his translation of the Bhagavad Gita, and the second from his introduction to his translation of the Upanishads.

From the earliest times, Hinduism has proclaimed one God while accommodating worship of him (or her, for to millions God is the Divine Mother) in many different names. "Truth is one," says a famous verse of the Rig Veda; "men call it by various names." A monastic devotee might find that Shiva embodies the austere detachment he seeks; a devotee who wants to live "in the world," partaking of its innocent pleasures but devoted to service of his fellow creatures, might find in Krishna the perfect incarnation of his ideals. In every case, this clothing of the Infinite in human form serves to focus a devotee's love and to provide an inspiring ideal. But whatever form is worshipped, it is only an aspect of the same one God.

The Upanishads are not systematic philosophy; they are more like ecstatic slide shows of mystical experience - vivid, disjointed, stamped with the power of direct personal encounter with the divine. If they seem to embrace contradictions, that is because they do not try to smooth over the seams of these experiences. They simply set down what the rishis saw, viewing the ultimate reality from different levels of spiritual awareness, like snapshots of the same object from different angles: now seeing God as utterly transcendent, for example, now seeing God as immanent as well. These differences are not important, and the Upanishads agree on their central ideas: ...

These quotes help me understand the different things people believe. Some say, "This is the ONLY way. All other paths are false." Well, I can't know that they're wrong, even though I believe they are. But I think some people have a need to have found the One Way, and that's fine. On some level, maybe some people are not comfortable with the idea of many different, equally valid choices. How to choose? But if they have reason to believe that one specific way is THE way, they can relax.

I don't know. Just my theory.

"But believing doesn't hurt anything, in fact, you protect yourself just in case, because all you have to do is believe and you can get into heaven". It cannot be that easy.

Nor is it possible. I don't have a switch on the back of my head that I can throw, and suddenly believe something.

[Lady Revel]

Awwwww, you guys actually read this!

I must admit, I woke up this morning as thought to myself (as I smacked a hand across my forehead) ,"How could you lay yourself out like that, you dope! Why did you do that? They are going to take you apart!"

And none of you did. Thank you for that. *grin*

Fist: I have read many of your posts, and I have found you to be incredibly intelligent, obviously a well-versed reader (or where else would you find those quotes? ), and on top of that a thoroughly empathetic person. I am astounded as to how you can understand two sides of a topic at the same time, something I aspire to, and am sort of getting there, but certainly not as well as you. And it is clear you are right, religion certainly hits the nail on the head for those who believe them - which gives me an idea for another topic!

Jem: What a wonderful, well thought out post! I have also come to admire your input on a topic.

Jem said:

This is so very true. Believing DOES hurt something. It hurts ME. It has negative effects on me. If I believe in SIN I start to feel ashamed of myself, if I believe in Heaven I believe in Hell and start to fear it. I need to devote tons of time to it, 'repent, confess, pray'. I agree, if I were God, I wouldn't be this vague about the whole thing, definately!

I cannot agree with this more. Believing would have unalterably negative affects upon my person. I would not be who I am, because I would be too busy examining myself for flaws (and boy, I would be at it for a long time). I truly do not think we were meant to do that. Personally, I try to live my life (emphasis on try, I don't always succeed, as we can all see by a few of my more famous posts) the best way I can. A good way. A right way. Sometimes it appears to me (and, as always, I will add the disclaimer that in my ignorance, I could be wrong) that some religions want a person to truly think that they are evil and therefore, one spends one's life trying to atone for that. That's not how I want to live my life!

Jem said:

Also, because others agree with you, you can feel better about your belief, so much so that you become convinced that it is the TRUTH and never have to question it again. However, I have never been able to commit myself to that, and I take it you've never either.

Sometimes the way that works frightens me, Jem. Some people can be made to believe anything via the process you mentioned, and that makes me nervous. Since thinking about that makes me antsy, I will move along and say that we do miss out on the brotherhood and network of people by thinking the way we do, and sometimes that makes me sad. I have just moved to a new state, and church would be an ideal place to meet new people, for I know no one, but once again, the whole lying issue takes over, and I find that is something I cannot do.

Thanks again for that lovely post, not only did it give me things to think about (the think vs. believe for instance), but its so nice to know that I am not alone in wanting to be who I am, not who others would like me to be.

Plissken: I have known from the first that we think similarly, and I would like to thank you for hanging in with the loud mouthed underdog when I got a little carried away with myself (ie pharmacy/bc pill topic). You kept me from being (oh, should I say it? should I?!?!) ahem, crucified , by toning down my posts after the fact, and for that I am eternally grateful. This is the only board I have ever posted seriously to, and I fear I am still learning the ropes of debate, and how far one can go before crossing the line.

I find it equally interesting that we ended up with similar views coming from backgrounds so juxtaposed to each other. However, not as strange as you may think. You see, my father had a very fundamentalist religion literally (not figuratively) beaten into him while he was growing up, and he felt that nothing that horrible and that hurt so bad could be a good thing, and ended up eschewing religion altogether.

I always love to read your posts, Plissken, because I so often agree with them!!! *grins wide and wrinkles her nose* Take care of yourself during this time of loss, ok?

Vector: Welcome!
Vector said:

that we as humankind need to strive to make a better future through better understanding of our actions and their ramifications on us and the rest of the world - meaning, I guess, that we are responsable to define what the basis of morality is and strive in that direction.

Now THAT is what I believe in. Bottom line. Thank you, Vector

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

This is what my friend Kevin the Seminarian said in response to my post:

I very much appreciate your honesty in this post. Honesty truly makes meaningful conversation possible. I think, however, you have possibly misrepresented what religion, and belief in a higher power means for those who profess the faith.
Metaphysics describes God, the Creator, in terms of Absolute Being. God is Perfect, therefore He is fully Active, meaning there is He has no potential, he is not Passive. We on the other hand, his creature, though created perfect, have an partially Active and partially Passive Being. Religion is God's way of teaching us how to become more like Him, to become more Active, to live more authentic lives.
The doctrine of Sin can be explained using these terms. Sin, is action that is not becoming of perfection, of holiness. God desires for his creatures to be like him, but he has instilled in His creatures, free will--the ability to choose, literally Absolute Being or Nothingness--creation or uncreation--order or chaos--life or death.
Judaism and Christianity are revealed religions, meaning, they profess that the Divine has revealed the Way of living the most authentic life possible--living the way of life. In Judaism, God has revealed His Will for his creatures to be a way of Love (Deut 6:4-9). For as God does, so also shall His children do. The Law of the Old Testament, was how the people of Israel responded to God's will revealed through life and God's prophets.
Christianity purports that Christ is the Perfect Revelation of God. Christ is God, so Christ is God's Revelation of Himself. Christ, being "the Way, the Truth, and the Life" is the model for human living. As Christ did--as the Master has done--so shall the disciples do.
You say "believing hurts Me". True, believing hurt Christ. The Cross is what it means to beleive. Not my will Father, but Thy will be done.
Christ, entrusted the "keys of the kingdom" to Peter. Therefore Christ the Lord in whom the full revelation of the supreme God is brought to completion (see Cor. 1:20; 3:13; 4:6), commissioned the Apostles to preach to all men that Gospel which is the source of all saving truth and moral teaching, and to impart to them heavenly gifts.
In order to keep the Gospel forever whole and alive within the Church, the Apostles left bishops as their successors, "handing over" to them "the authority to teach in their own place.
So we do not have our "own moral code". We have the moral code given by God, for his children, so that they may live the fullness of life. Heaven and Hell are not really to be considered reward and punishment, but a continuation for eternity of the life we lived on earth. A life of love and joy in cooperation with the Will of God or freely chosen separation from the source of love, life, and joy.

[Fist and Faith]

For peter.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

peter?

[aliantha]

I think you're gonna have to merge the threads, Fisty.

[Fist and Faith]

Hey Jem! Been a while! (Unless I've just not noticed that you've been posting.)