Thomas' relationship with his daughter

siaho · Post by **siaho** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 8:00 am

I donno, at first it creaped me out, for obvious reasons. Incest is Incest. But I liked her character, and the love that built between them....

I was upset with how things developed, and with her eventual death. I was surprised when I realized I had actually hoped that they'd find some sort of happiness and perminent love togeather. Considering poor covenent, and how Mr. Donaldson writes, i knew it wouldn't happen, but still...

basically, i was interested in how other people viewed their relationship.

Post by **Revan** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:10 pm

Heh, shouldn't this be in the the other forum?

I loved the story line between them... And when I found out that she was his daughter... wh=hich was in the first book... because they have a list of names at the back... I guesses, I couldn't wait for it to get started. I liked how he loved her... And I'm also a little creeped out by her coming onto him... but remember that he is also turned on by her... so she's not the only sick one...

Post by **danlo** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 4:24 pm

Don't worry Darth, I know how to do my job...now it is in another forum.

Post by **Durris** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 5:52 pm

I was creeped out that Elena knew their relationship and still acted as she did.

"You cannot ravish me, Thomas Covenant. There is no crime here. I have chosen you."

She understood consent as opposed to force, but didn't understand that no consent she could give could be licit.

Had Covenant not been on his way out of Unbelief already, this could have been a powerful argument for the dream-ness of the Land: the immense improbability of an adult offspring making such choices in waking-life human behavior.

Post by **aTOMiC** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 8:34 pm

The only thing that gets me through reading about this relationship is the fact that Elena did not think of TC as a father. Triock filled that void in her heart. TC and Elena appear to be roughly the same age, which under normal circumstance is of course impossible. Lena has taught her daughter through her own personal devotion to adore TC. He is also from the "Real World" further distancing Elena's blood relationship to TC. If I didn't force myself to look at this situation in this way, I'd be totally creeped out too instead of just a little queasy.

Post by **Furls Fire** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:57 pm

Triock:

She was flawed from birth

I think that pretty much sums her up...

Post by **Tulizar** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:05 am

Furls Fire wrote:Triock:

She was flawed from birth
I think that pretty much sums her up...

I love that quote. It not only sums up Elena, but it also sums up how her loved ones perceived her. It was this flaw, the circumstances of her existence, that ultimately planted the seeds of bitterness and resentment that destroyed her family. She was surrounded and raised by family members who were either bitter, or driven to extremes of love and contempt for TC. Considering the implications of an upbringing in such a dysfunctional family, I've often marveled at how Elena was able to rise to such a noble rank.

Post by **Durris** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:08 am

In some ways she was like Linden--using achievement to try to transcend trauma.

Why did Linden succeed in transcending the trauma and Elena only multiply it?

Post by **Revan** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 10:16 am

danlo wrote:Don't worry Darth, I know how to do my job...now it is in another forum.

Post by **danlo** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 1:24 pm

Maybe because she dealt with so much trauma 1st hand (LA) and had it ingrained in her. She felt guilty to varying degrees for deaths and worked everyday with life and death situations--whereas Elena didn't have to. (:shifty::Darth)

Post by **Durris** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 5:05 pm

Is true. Maybe Linden's frequent exposure to life-and-death dangers and responsibilities affected her like the tempering of sword steel, so that she absorbed many blows without breaking; Elena was made of a metal similar in quality, but in a brittle, untempered form that shattered on impact.

Post by **aliantha** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 6:15 pm

I've never thought about the similarities between Linden and Elena before. Good topic!

To me, on the surface, the main difference between them is their level of guilt. Linden's guilt is practically intrinsic; it suffuses her response to everything. Elena seemingly has no guilt. She doesn't see a problem with flirting with her biological father, and she doesn't really have qualms about calling up the Earthblood with the Staff of Law. "Headstrong" is a good way to describe her, I guess. She's not quite arrogant, but it wouldn't take her many steps to get there. I think that this is the quality that allowed her to get so far with the Lords -- that, and her blood relationship to Covenant -- but it's also what ultimately destroys her.

Don't get me wrong -- I like Elena, altho her flirting with TC made me a little queasy, too. Any woman in a leadership position was enough of a novelty in the '70s to make me feel kindly toward her.

Post by **Durris** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 7:58 pm

aliantha wrote:

To me, on the surface, the main difference between them is their level of guilt. Linden's guilt is practically intrinsic; it suffuses her response to everything. Elena seemingly has no guilt.

That's not only a profound insight into their characters, it also taps into one of the core themes of the entire mythos. SRD puts it into Covenant's authorial pen in TWL; Dr. Berenford summarizes his reading of Covenant's work this way.

If you'd had a chance to read Or I Will Sell My Soul For Guilt, you'd find him arguing that innocence is a wonderful thing except for the fact that it's impotent. Guilt is power. All effective people are guilty becaues the use of power is guilt, and only guilty people can be effective. Effective for good, mind you. Only the damned can be saved.

As you observe, aliantha, Elena has no sense of guilt. That doesn't make her innocent. It does remove a potential brake from her actions, which multiplies the objective guilt she eventually incurs. And it also removes a source of tempering from her personality

Spoiler

(remember the alloy that Covenant becomes in the Banefire: "It's not a sickness any more. I am guilt.")

so that when she does see the Despite she's been used for it breaks her to pieces.

For all her pervasive sense of guilt, and her objectively many-times-lost innocence, Linden is effective for good. Corruption and its agents repeatedly accuse her of being undiluted evil, and though for long she cannot quite deny the accusations, she's lived with their like so perpetually that she is able to absorb them and still do what she is needed to do. In that respect she is quite unlike the Bloodguard, BTW.

Post by **Skyweir** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 10:02 pm

TOM C wrote:The only thing that gets me through reading about this relationship is the fact that Elena did not think of TC as a father. Triock filled that void in her heart. TC and Elena appear to be roughly the same age, which under normal circumstance is of course impossible. Lena has taught her daughter through her own personal devotion to adore TC. He is also from the "Real World" further distancing Elena's blood relationship to TC. If I didn't force myself to look at this situation in this way, I'd be totally creeped out too instead of just a little queasy.

Exactly!! Triock was the "father-figure" in her life .. notwithstanding her biological connection with TC. I was creeped out by Elena's and TC's incestuous flirtations ..

In the reality of the Land the fact that Elena was TC's daughter .. means as much as one random sperm cell - and as much as every sperm is sacred!!

he never had the opportunity to develop that relationship beyond that point .. TC never had a father-daughter relationship with Elena .. and till he returned to the Land .. had no clue he was a father <in the Land>

And lo .. here was this gorgeous tall, regal young woman .. not so very different in age from him .. indeed a dilema!

A true challenge to TC's world view .. as so much of the Land was

Durris great points!!

That doesn't make her innocent. It does remove a potential brake from her actions, which multiplies the objective guilt she eventually incurs

another insightful profundity on this thread!!

I always think that statement .. "she was flawed from birth" to be so very harsh .. Elena was raised by a severely conflicted parent .. Lena clearly had to struggle with contextualising what happened to her .. This was a legendary representation of a saviour to her mind .. Berek half-hand yes .. but white gold ring bearer to boot!!

It would not have been easy to rationalise how this .. paragon of good .. raped her of her innocence .. How could you iron out the incongruencies of that whole mess .. in your head?? how could you make sense of that??

Clearly Lena had trouble with that .. but when she realised she was carrying the White Gold Wielder's child .. ahhhh ... this is the purpose ..

We need to find some reason for why bad things happen to us .. some purpose .. Lena raised Elena to be in awe of the power of this "man" .. imo ..

Post by **aliantha** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 10:27 pm

Aww, shucks, Durris. Thanky. And I think you're right about Linden -- she doesn't buckle under the accusations that she's evil because she's heard it all before, and has to some extent internalized it. Her answer (like TC's) is to just keep moving, keep doing what you have to do.

Sky, I wonder sometimes what Elena's "flaw" at birth really was. If we're talking about mental flaws, there doesn't appear to be anything congenital -- Lena and her family were normal Stonedowners until TC came along, and TC was normal until he contracted leprosy. Maybe the mixing of Earth genes and Land genes made her a little wacky...but I'm more inclined to attribute it to her upbringing. Lena was basically nuts, Triock was angry-nuts, and Atiaran was rigid-angry-nuts. One could argue that nobody was fully there emotionally to raise Elena properly. Her mother chose to honor TC's memory (because the alternative would be to deal emotionally with being raped, which nobody there was ready to do); Mom's kinda loopy but hey, the Ranyhyn visit her once a year, so she must be pretty darn special. And Triock and Atiaran knew, given the circumstances surrounding Elena's conception, that she was likely to be the only grandchild they would ever have. So my guess is that nobody was available to teach Elena humility (or guilt, for that matter).

Post by **Revan** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 9:24 am

danlo wrote:(:shifty::Darth)

heh

Post by **Skyweir** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 12:30 am

yeah there is no doubt that she was raised within an extremely disfunctional environment.

Elena would have surely picked up on her grandfathers loathing of TC .. her mothers rapist!! his daughters rapist!!

and i get that .. i would share the same loathing for any who harmed a hair on a head of any child of mine!

Atiaran though "rigid angry nuts"

LOL .. still made the fatal attempt to summon him back to the Land .. she saw through her hatred his value to the Land .. though I am sure that didnt make her 'dealing' any easier ..

and Lena well yah .. sadly she was "just nuts" .. that whole experience and all the mental conflict associated with the entire saga .. left her bereft of herself .. lost to her dreams .. unable to escape her mental assylum

These dudes are among the most messed up .. I totally agree.

I get the hate .. and the knowing the crimes of this man and the same offender walking free in the Land and not only free .. but also revered by those that ought to have gained some semblance of recourse for the victim and family of the victim .. for his crime.

A very difficult situation indeed ...

seeing it from those affected by TC's act

That is a good point .. if she was flawed from birth .. perhaps because she was born of 2 worlds ..

Post by **Revan** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:42 am

good post

Post by **Ylva Kresh** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:42 pm

I was just thinking - nothing serious, I am sure it will pass soon enough... After the death/disolvation of the summoner, the summoned person is called back to his/hers normal world (except for the case of Atiaran and Hile - but that was a weird summoning all together - not that all summonings are not weird of course

). How come that not "all of TC" (all his DNA that is) was called back with him?

Post by **Mystikan** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:55 pm

How come that not "all of TC" (all his DNA that is) was called back with him?

Lena fed him aliantha and he also ate with her family in Mithil Stonedown before he raped her... maybe the DNA that created Elena was produced from those foods and was therefore native to the Land! That also beggars the question: What of TC's body matter that formed from food he'd eaten in the land? Did he take that back with him, or did he lose a few kilos on the way back?

Hmm, maybe if he ate some aliantha just before returning, and swallowed the seeds instead of sowing them, would he later be able to dig them out of his stool (yuk!) after he came back and plant them? Then we could have aliantha here on Earth, which would be uber cool!

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Thomas' relationship with his daughter

Thomas' relationship with his daughter