High Lord Kevin

[KaosArcana]

Does anyone think there's ANYTHING Kevin could have done
that would have stopped Foul short of the Ritual of Desecration?
Is anyone willing to argue that it would have been better for the
Land if Kevin had not enacted the Ritual with Foul?

[Fist and Faith]

The only thing that's struck me deals with this:

In his early years, he was wise as well as mighty and knowledgeable. When he saw the first hints that the ancient shadow was alive, he looked far into the chances of the future, and what he saw gave him cause to fear. Therefore he gathered all his Lore into Seven Wards-

Seven Wards of ancient Lore
For Land's protection, wall and door-

and hid them, so that his knowledge would not pass from the Land even if he and the Old Lords fell.

For many many long years the Land lived on in peace. But during that time, the gray Slayer rose up in the guise of a friend. In some way, the eyes of Kevin were blinded, and he accepted his enemy as a friend and Lord...

I can't help but think that, since he had forwarning, he should have found a way to spot Foul earlier. Of course, we don't know what those "hints" were. Plus, this was the first time Foul made an appearance, wasn't it? <I>samadhi</I> had possessed Berek's king, but Berek didn't know it was a Raver. Did he even know what a Raver was? Anyway, it wasn't Foul, and I don't remember mention that he was around prior to Berek either. So the particular evil, and its capabilities, were entirely unknown to Kevin. I guess I'll have to give him credit for having seen the hints at all, and coming up with a plan of any sort.

As for the Ritual/Not the Ritual, I think that the Creator did not go to Covenant, or another White Gold Wielder, because he knew that Kevin was going to enact it. He knew that everything would survive, more or less, that Foul would be diminished for a time, and that the future would have another chance to come up with a better way of dealing with Despite. If Kevin had NOT been planning it, the Creator <I>would</I> have chosen a champion from elsewhere, as he did during the two Chronicles, when there was absolutely no hope that anyone or anything from the Land's Earth would prevent Foul from taking over. And if Covenant had been the one who was brought to the Land back then, years earlier for Covenant, would he have been capable of defeating Foul?

Ah, the <I>What if</I> scenarios go on and on!

[Zahir]

Well, its an interesting question.

One possibility is that Kevin might have thought of some wish to make after tasting the Earthblood. Exactly what that wish might have been is a good question, but perhaps he could have commanded the Elohim to let the Lords know when the Grey Slayer was again abroad.

Another thought--he had the Staff of Law. Why not summon another White Gold Wielder, some one different that TC simply because the Land's need was different?

Might Kevin have sought out banes such as the Illearth Stone and sealed them against ever being used? Or perhaps discovered if there was a way to transform Evil into Good?

Then again, perhaps he could have sought out new types of lore and power--from the Waynhim, maybe? Or possibly the Urviles, aiding their quest in return for help protecting the Land?

Just some thoughts.

[amanibhavam]

I do kinda think that Kevin would have had no chance against Foul whatever he would have done - because Foul had come from outside and Kevin was from inside; only wild magic had a chance against him

what Kevin could have done is strengthen the Old Forest and the Colossus somehow and banish the Ravers forever from the Land - that might have saved a lot of trouble later

[vt53]

The new lords clearly felt that Kevin could have done better or they would not have created the oath of peace. SRD gives us no indication that Kevin went to the Eholim or any other source for help. As amanibhavam States perhaps the One Forrest/Colossus might have helped him. SRD Clearly states that kevin fell into dispair, he felt his failures were the lands failures, he commited suicide and like David Harrish, Jim Jones, etc etc he took many others with him.

Could Kevin had done anything differnt? Probibly not this was his flaw. Was there a beter solution Probibly yes.

[Fist and Faith]

SRD Clearly states that kevin fell into dispair, he felt his failures were the lands failures, he commited suicide

This is a point of contention. I do not believe that SRD took away our ability/right to believe otherwise. IIRC, Kevin's story is always given as a legend that was passed down through the ages. It was never said from a narrative p.o.v. that was <I>not</I> one of the characters, so that we should take it as fact. The Creator didn't say it either. It's possible that the people of the Land, particularly when they began returning to the Land after the Desecration, could not imagine the Ritual being anything other than an act of despair, and began telling the story that way. In fact, SRD gives us reason to think otherwise when Elena tells TC that there were those who argued otherwise who, though few, were eloquent. In one of our threads, I've been convinced that it was <I>not</I> despair. Unless the Creator (SRD ) says otherwise.

Could Kevin had done anything differnt? Probibly not this was his flaw. Was there a beter solution Probibly yes.

That's nicely put, even if I don't agree with the first part of it. And I agree that there had to have been something else to try. If, when Kevin "looked far into the chances of the future", he saw only bad outcomes, I'd think he would have done more than just preserve his knowledge. I'd have gone looking for help outside the Land. He knew the Giants and <I>Haruchai</I>. Through the Giants, he knew of the Elohim and <I>Bhrathair</I>. Certainly, there are others.

Here's a couple of Commands I'd consider. I wonder if one person could drink the EarthBlood, and Command that another person be able to forsee all possible consequences of their own Command. Then the second person drinks. Or something like that. Is that sufficiently different from wishing for a thousand more wishes? And how about Commanding to learn the locations of other great powers? He'd have maybe learned about the Illearth Stone, but there's bound to be others that were better suited to his hands.

And if I didn't do that second idea, I'd have been trying to meditate through the Earthpower, seeing where else on Earth the Earthpower was strong, hoping to find sources of power. Of course, maybe that's how he found the EarthBlood in the first place. But, like I said, there's bound to be others, as well as the Elohim, and maybe other beings.

But, maybe we aren't giving Kevin enough credit. Getting back to that legend:

When he saw the first hints that the ancient shadow was alive, he looked far into the chances of the future, and what he saw gave him cause to fear.

We know that he was prescient from passages other than that. Maybe he saw <I>all possible</I> outcomes, or maybe a huge number. And maybe they all ended with Foul ruling the Land. Unless he did what he did.

What if? What if? What if?

[KaosArcana]

That's nicely put, even if I don't agree with the first part of it. And I agree that there had to have been something else to try. If, when Kevin "looked far into the chances of the future", he saw only bad outcomes, I'd think he would have done more than just preserve his knowledge. I'd have gone looking for help outside the Land. He knew the Giants and Haruchai. Through the Giants, he knew of the Elohim and Bhrathair. Certainly, there are others.

The thing is, the Elohim already knew of the existence of Lord
Foul, but they did nothing. I don't think there's anything that
Kevin could have done to convince them to aid him ... and I
don't think that the Elohim could have done anything to stop
Foul even if they had wanted to.

The Elohim are Earthpower Incarnate, but as Amok pointed out,
the Earthpower could not harm Foul.

The Bhrathair, like the Cavewights, have no "heaven-challenging
lore" and would have been helpless against Foul.

As for Others ... we know that there were other lands where people
existed who had some kind of lore-- Kasyren (sp) of the Gyre came
from SOMEPLACE, and it wasn't the Land (or was it?) *EG*

If Kevin had known where the Giants' Home was, he would have sent
the Unhomed back long ago. The Haruchai would have been useless
against Lord Foul ....

... though can you imagine an army of thousands of Haruchai fighting
in defense of the Land?

[Fist and Faith]

I'm sure you're right about the Elohim. But Kevin didn't know them as we do. (Or did he? heh) My point is he could have tried.

As for armies of <I>Haruchai</I>, or even wimpy <I>Bhrathair</I>, of course they would have helped. Foul wasn't standing there all by himself, swatting down mere mortals who couldn't hurt him in return. He had armies, just as he used with Fleshharrower and Satansfist. He could do all he could in the mental/emotional fields, which may have been more against Kevin than we are aware, but he needed armies too.

But your point about the Giants is important. If he had been able to find them to send the Unhomed home, they all might have come to help Kevin. But he couldn't find them. And maybe he couldn't find anyone else. Assuming Foul prevented the one, he may have been preventing the other. Ha!! Maybe Foul, while they still thought he was a Lord, was the one put in charge of helping the Unhomed find their way back!!

And isn't Kasreyn an interesting one!! I'd love to know more about him!

[KaosArcana]

I'm sure you're right about the Elohim. But Kevin didn't know them as we do. (Or did he? heh) My point is he could have tried.

We really don't know what Kevin knew. Heck, we don't know what
Mhoram's Lords knew in regards to the Elohim and the Bhrathair.
All we knew about them was a line that Foamfollower tossed off to
Covenant on the way to Revelstone.

Maybe I'm crediting him with a lot more knowledge than he had,
but I think that Kevin probably knew that there was no help that
could arrive before Foul won.

[[Syl]]

I believe the premise that nothing from the land or elsewhere inside the arch of time could have stopped Foul is correct, and I think that is the secret behind Kevin's invitation.

Kevin could have performed the RoD by himself, and that would have achieved nothing. Kevin could have focused his entire knowledge and lore on Foul and achieved nothing (or, at least, not victory). Foul surpassed Kevin, and Kevin knew it.

So why? This was obviously a premeditated desecration. The reason is that Kevin thought to use LF's own might against him. With a push from Kevin's own strength, he thought that Foul would destroy himself in a way that anything else couldn't. Personally, I think Kevin was right, and the only thing that saved Foul was that he held back (i mean, only a relatively small area of the world was harmed, and this is a guy that can somewhat rival the creator?). That and the idea that you can't kill despite.

[Fist and Faith]

We really don't know what Kevin knew. Heck, we don't know what Mhoram's Lords knew in regards to the Elohim and the Bhrathair. All we knew about them was a line that Foamfollower tossed off to Covenant on the way to Revelstone.

To pick a nit, Amok mentioned them a couple of times too.

Maybe I'm crediting him with a lot more knowledge than he had, but I think that Kevin probably knew that there was no help that could arrive before Foul won.

I believe the premise that nothing from the land or elsewhere inside the arch of time could have stopped Foul is correct, and I think that is the secret behind Kevin's invitation.

Kevin could have performed the RoD by himself, and that would have achieved nothing. Kevin could have focused his entire knowledge and lore on Foul and achieved nothing (or, at least, not victory). Foul surpassed Kevin, and Kevin knew it.

There is no question but that Kevin knew exactly what Foul was. Kevin made Amok. Amok speaks and acts the ways Kevin created him to speak and act. And Amok told Elena and Covenant this about the Power of Command:

The first of these hazards - first, but perhaps not foremost - is the one great limit of the Power. It holds no sway over anything which is not a natural part of the Earth's creation. Thus it is not possible to Command the Despiser to cease his warring. It is not possible to Command his death. He lived before the arch of Time was forged - the Power cannot compel him.

If Kevin hadn't known it, Amok wouldn't have known it.

So why? This was obviously a premeditated desecration. The reason is that Kevin thought to use LF's own might against him. With a push from Kevin's own strength, he thought that Foul would destroy himself in a way that anything else couldn't. Personally, I think Kevin was right, and the only thing that saved Foul was that he held back (i mean, only a relatively small area of the world was harmed, and this is a guy that can somewhat rival the creator?). That and the idea that you can't kill despite.

I don't agree, though, that Kevin thought the Ritual would destroy Foul. I think Mhoram knew how to pull off the Ritual all by himself, and I don't know of any reason to think Foul added anything to it. I think Kevin just wanted Foul there at the heart of the power. He knew that, though you can't kill despite, it would seriously damage his physical strength. Foul would need much time to recover that strength, and the Land would have the chance to figure out a better plan.

Unfortunately, he learned who and what his enemy was too late. I'd love to see this story. Among the many many questions, I'd like to see how Foul fooled him. Smart, powerful, prescient guy, and Foul is his best bud? Like I said, I don't think they had ever encountered Foul, himself, before, but man! Sure, Foul was strong enough to pass the <I>orcrest</I> and <I>lomillialor</I> tests, but you'd think <I>something</I> would have given him away.

[Drinny]

Regarding Kevin needing Foul for the ritual of desecration: I agree Kevin didn't really need Foul there; he could have enacted the ritual himself.

However, it makes sense to have Foul there: otherwise, Foul could possibly be outside the boundaries of the Land, and be unharmed by the ritual.

Why was Foul there? Probably because he so enjoys seeing self-despite brought to it's fullest; and because he knew he would only be weakened and that in the 'next round' he would have even better starting conditions anyway.

[Guest]

Kevin could have performed the RoD by himself, and that would have achieved nothing. Kevin could have focused his entire knowledge and lore on Foul and achieved nothing (or, at least, not victory). Foul surpassed Kevin, and Kevin knew it.

Foul was opposed for millennia by the one forrest and the colosus, its was man's desicration of the forrest that allowed Foul and his servants access to the land. Again no victory was obtained, Nor could absolute victory ever be expected as TC showed us twice.

Kevin dispaired and gave up the long fight required by the immortality of dispite.

[vt53]

once again the above is vt53

[[Syl]]

i doubt Kevin helped matters, but the One Forest had already been separated and greatly reduced by man with axe and fire, causing the Colossus to release its edict, before Berek gained the Earthlore.

[vt53]

i doubt Kevin helped matters, but the One Forest had already been separated and greatly reduced by man with axe and fire, causing the Colossus to release its edict, before Berek gained the Earthlore.

I wonder why the lords did not try to remake the one forrest in lieu of lore?

I is amazing how we fail to learn from the past.
We establish the SEC to keep banks, insurance companies, investment bankers from over driving speculation in the market 60 years later "we" let them all get into bed together and screw everyone around them.
We set up a government that has part of its basic tennants seperation of church and state, 200 years latter we think it is ok to send tax dollars to religious schools, and federal money to church sponcered organizations.
We establiahed rules to Keep the CIA out of spying on Americans. Now we think it will be OK they won't spy on "citizens" in their effort to protect us.

SRD just made His land a reflection of ours

[[Syl]]

ok, now i'm sounding pedantic, but the lords did try to restore the forests. they held it as a mark of their accomplishments or lack thereof how much they had restored, if i remember correctly (i think that might have been one of the things noted in TC's revelation at the Clave).

This region lay between the Westron Mountains and the Maerl, Gray, and Rill rivers. Within these borders, the effects of the Lords' care were everywhere, in everything. Generations of Lords had made Stricken Stone into a hale woodland, a wide hilly country of forests and glades and dales. Whole grassy hillsides were vivid with small blue and yellow flowers. For scores of leagues south and west of the riders, profuse aliantha and deep grass were full of goldleaved Gilden and other trees, cherry and apple and white linden, prodigious oaks and elms and maples anademed in autumn glory. And air that for decades after the battle had still echoed with the blasts and shrieks of war was now so clear and clean that it seemed to glisten with birdcalls.

granted, that passage concerned places destroyed by Kevin, but Kevin's desecration seems to have destroyed enough trees for Caerroil Wildwood to take notice. they had to make up for what Kevin did before they could make up for those who came before. the new lords were obviously commited to the forests as much as anywhere else in the land, as Mhoram says so to Wildwood before entering Garroting Deep.

no way of telling if the old lords tried their hand at reforrestation.

[Ryzel]

granted, that passage concerned places destroyed by Kevin, but Kevin's desecration seems to have destroyed enough trees for Caerroil Wildwood to take notice. they had to make up for what Kevin did before they could make up for those who came before. the new lords were obviously commited to the forests as much as anywhere else in the land, as Mhoram says so to Wildwood before entering Garroting Deep.

no way of telling if the old lords tried their hand at reforrestation.

I always thought that the area you are referring too was destroyed by the war between LF and Kevin, not by the RoD itself. (Somebody should really make a list of the abbreviations. )


Anyway I cannot remember it it was said anywhere that the forests of the land was destroyed by the ritual of desecration. Anybody know any references that say so? I always thought that the earthpower in the forests were strong enough to protect them from the ritual, but by the same token made them unfitting as refuges for people. The hatred of the forests are older than the land itself, after all.

[Fist and Faith]

I always thought that the area you are referring too was destroyed by the war between LF and Kevin, not by the RoD itself.

You're right. Atiaran said this:

"Then the few who were chosen at Revelstone for the great work took the First Ward to Kurash Plenethor, Stricken Stone, where the gravest damage of the last battle was done. They named the land Troghgard, as a token of their promise of healing..."

Trothgard is pretty far from Mt. Thunder, so it's not likely that the Ritual was considered the "last battle."

Anyway I cannot remember it it was said anywhere that the forests of the land was destroyed by the ritual of desecration. Anybody know any references that say so? I always thought that the earthpower in the forests were strong enough to protect them from the ritual, but by the same token made them unfitting as refuges for people. The hatred of the forests are older than the land itself, after all.

From Caerroil Wildwood:

"I know nothing of Lords. They are nothing to me. But I know men, mortals. The Ritual of Desecration is not forgotten in the Deep."

[ceallaighq]

Interesting discussion!

I wonder what constitutes a victory for Foul. I would think his number one goal is to break the arch of time and be free. Short of that, his goal is drive the Land utterly into corruption and despair.

If the Ritual of Desecration was the ultimate act of despair (we know it was an act of despair, at least, because it says so in the glossary ), why wasn't Foul made stronger?

When TC got his hands on Foul with all of the White Gold power, it was Foamfollower's laughter that did the real damage.

It doesn't make sense that _both_ Kevin's despair and Foamfollower's joy could reduce Foul.


Love these books!