High Lord Kevin

[Guest]

Interesting discussion!

When TC got his hands on Foul with all of the White Gold power, it was Foamfollower's laughter that did the real damage.

It doesn't make sense that _both_ Kevin's despair and Foamfollower's joy could reduce Foul.


Love these books!

I will have to re-read but didn't Foamfollowers Laughter keep TC from over reacting to Foul, gave him insight to the essential fact that the white gold could not destroy foul without breaking the arch of time. I do not remember the laughter having a physical effect on the battle beyound its positive effect on TC. I'll have to re-read

[MokshaTuriyaSamadhi Raver]

Lord Foul is sometimes referred to as the despiser. To despise is to look down at something as small, insignificant or neglible, of course which all the Lords and such are, being from within the AoT unlike himself. I believe that in the depths of despair Kevin hit something so powerful that even Foul was blown away. The extreme of his despair became the crucible for him to find something extra.

Or you could just argue that he destroyed the physical while enhancing the etheral, for which I'll hate you.

I think that a facet (by no means the main message) is that you can find meaning and power in anything that you feel, but the only true meaning or power comes from that which is positive. Joy saved the Land whereas Despair could only stave off danger for a time.

Although I guess joy only staved off danger for a while as well..... maybe SRD is trying to tell us emotions are for the weak like a real man would say?

[High Lord Prothall]

I believe that TC notes in TPTP (or maybe retrospectively in the 2nd trilogy) that he could have destroyed Foul with the White Gold ring, BUT then he would have become the Land's new despiser.

Foamfollowers laughter was a way to diminish Foul without merely replacing one mean super-bad guy with another one. So the laughter was also there to redeem TC. (Aa a "real world" example, think of how Napoleon became just as tyranicall as the despotic kings that were overthrown in the French Revolution.)

Even Foul said as much to TC in the final battle, though it is clear that TC thinks that the laughter **can** banish Foul for good. "I can't kill him. He always survives when you try to kill him. He comes back stronger than ever the next time"

HOWEVER, we also don't know that much about the interrum between the first and 2nd triligies. Sure, the new Lords did try to rebuild the Land, but we do know that they were a bit complacent and perhaps the corruption of earthservice began even before the raver possessed the council, as most orginizations tend to degrade over time. Maybe the lords were already starting the road of political infighting, which would cause the Despiser to slowly regenerate. (if you believe that LF is the externalized Despite of the inhabitants of the land.)

[[Syl]]

Or you could just argue that he destroyed the physical while enhancing the etheral, for which I'll hate you.

i think the answer to that question would depend on how angry kevin was with himself at the time. foul gains strength through despite, self hate... laughs at lepers and all that.

despair and despite may be close, but they're not the same thing.

[Fist and Faith]

Wow! Tons of posts to this thread in the past several hours! If anyone's interested, my 2nd post on the 2nd page of the "The Oath of Peace" thread has my theories of Foul. I don't know if copying the same information again is frowned upon for any reason, so I won't do that this time. As for the question of Foul being harmed by the Ritual, my guess would be that the amount of damage Foul's physical self can withstand increases with the amount of despair/hate/despite/etc that is around. Kevin's was, no doubt, great, but he was only one person. He may have told everyone else that he had discovered something that was guaranteed to kill Foul, but that they had better make tracks, "In case things get out of hand." They could have left feeling very optomistic. Foul's essence couldn't be destroyed, but his physical self could, at least, be seriously hurt. Maybe Foul knew that he had done all the damage he could, that Kevin had saved everyone who could be saved, and figured he'd get the last bit of despair he could - from Kevin at the Ritual. If he helped Kevin with the Ritual because he thought he would come out ahead, he was sure wrong. I think it was just one last hoorah, at the expense of the hot-shot High Lord. He says that he could hardly speak the words because he was laughing so hard at the futility of Kevin's plan. He thought that Kevin expected this to destroy Foul. I think Kevin knew it would not kill Foul, but knew that it would hurt him enough to give the Land time to recover and come up with another plan.

If the Ritual of Desecration was the ultimate act of despair (we know it was an act of despair, at least, because it says so in the glossary )

What a great point! (That's how we know that <I>Kenaustin Ardenol</I> is a name, and <I>ak-Haru</I> is a title.) I've said that it may have been an act of despair, but that it also was what he had to do for every logical reason. Any other choice would have led to Foul's victory. Doesn't mean he wasn't <I>extraordinarily</I> upset about what he was about to do, or about how he had been so blind, or about all the damage Foul had done.

[Damelon]

I wonder what constitutes a victory for Foul. I would think his number one goal is to break the arch of time and be free. Short of that, his goal is drive the Land utterly into corruption and despair.

Foul's ultimate goal is to break the arch of time to get at the Creator. Foul was willing to put up with the temporary loss of power, (to Foul 1000 years is temporary) in order to force the Creator to choose someone to bring the white gold to the Land; Foul's hope of freedom. Kevin losing the Staff of Law made it possible for Drool, though Foul's indirect aid, to bring white gold to the Land.

Why Kevin didn't summon TC or someone else with white gold is a question. Maybe he didn't know of the "real world" and didn't know that white gold could be summoned from outside the Land.

[KaosArcana]

Why Kevin didn't summon TC or someone else with white gold is a question. Maybe he didn't know of the "real world" and didn't know that white gold could be summoned from outside the Land.

I'm not sure that Covenant was even married during the time of Kevin.
Even if it had been only 1000 years before the time of the new Lords,
that would have been about two or three years before Covenant was
stricken with leprosy ... possibly even before he got married.

Hmm.

There's a thought.

How long would happy storyteller pre-lepger Thomas Covenant have lasted in the Land?

[Damelon]

[quote="KaosArcanaThere's a thought.

How long would happy storyteller pre-lepger Thomas Covenant have lasted in the Land?[/quote]

He wouldn't have been able to face Foul. The Creator told him at the end of TPTP "Your knowledge of your disease made you wise."

[KaosArcana]

He wouldn't have been able to face Foul. The Creator told him at the end of TPTP "Your knowledge of your disease made you wise."

But would a healthy Thomas Covenant have found the power of the
white gold blocked off as the leper Covenant did? Hile Troy had no
difficulty in using the power ... neither did Linden Avery.

[vt53]

[quote="KaosArcanaThere's a thought.

How long would happy storyteller pre-lepger Thomas Covenant have lasted in the Land?

He wouldn't have been able to face Foul. The Creator told him at the end of TPTP "Your knowledge of your disease made you wise."[/quote]

If you take away the leporsy, the delemma of belief/unbelief falls apart and TC could not have fought any differnt then Kevin did. The basic tennants of his disease and his battle with it are essential to the story and the Characters.